Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The question is who at that point will take the initiative to pick up the pieces?

Sandor Clegane and Hotpie.   It is known. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:13 AM, Frey family reunion said:

“Sansa” is also a type of apple.  Which makes her “transformation” into Alayne Stone even more interesting.  She’s become a “stone apple”.  And there is a fruit called a “stone apple”.  It’s also known as a bael fruit.  So in other words Sansa, the apple, becomes a stone apple under the guidance of Petyr Baelish.  

(Kudos to Snowfyre)

Well remembered, FFR.  Good times! 

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Well remembered, FFR.  Good times! 

Good to hear from you Snowfyre.  Can you believe we’re still going on about this?

[LongRider]

Sansa has also expressed in her thoughts that she doesn’t want to get married again as she would only be married off for her claim to WF. 

I don’t see Harry the Heir or fAgeon changing her thoughts as she knows with Harry what he, his mother and LF are all after;  the claim to Winterfell.  fAgeon is unknown to her right now but she has had experience with one arrogant prince, can’t see her wanting another go around in that rodeo.  

It was LF who schooled her that if you know what a man wants you can control him.   Well, LF has told her what he wants, he may have a surprise when he finds out what Sansa wants. 

[Melifeather]

How inconvenient would it be if Tyrion arrived at Sanaa’s wedding? Did she get her marriage declared invalid?

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

How inconvenient would it be if Tyrion arrived at Sanaa’s wedding? Did she get her marriage declared invalid?

Bit difficult when you're on the run 

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

How inconvenient would it be if Tyrion arrived at Sanaa’s wedding? Did she get her marriage declared invalid?

She has not. She has used her being married to Tyrion as a shield at times with LF as a way to prevent another marriage.  I've seen it discussed that the High Septon would be the one to annul the marriage, but as BC noted, tough to get done when one is wanted for regicide. 

[Black Crow]

Its going to be interesting to see where this one goes. Marrying "Alayne Stone" to Harry the heir would be problematic since he is the heir and she is Littlefinger's bastard. Marrying Harry the Heir to Sansa Stark the Heir to Winterfell is bold, although not perhaps risk-free in political terms, , but of course founders on Sansa's being married to Tyrion. The Crown could sort that, but would be mad to while the High Septon may be mad already and is probably unlikely to succumb to Littlefinger's blandishments.

That said, Lord Baelish is not to be underestimated, but nor I suspect is Sansa, especially if the Mad Mouse represents unseen allies - its about time the followers of the old gods started fighting back

[LongRider]

Harry becomes the Heir when Sweet Robin dies.  Will LF kill SR, or will Sansa emerge from Alanye in time to realize what LF is doing to SR and protect her only known living kin?

[Springwatch]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:02 AM, alienarea said:

Quaithe has a red laquered mask. The color fits for fire but also the old gods. I cannot make a solid proof, but she is very similar to the woodswitch Jon meets when the wildlings cross the wall.

All true... I looked up lacquer, and learned about tree sap, and wooden objects given shiny red finishes. That will do for me.

Trees are a more nuanced identity that pure ice - the Children use torches to drive off wights, and Quaithe's mask is sometimes starlight - the stars that burn and watch over the R'hllorists.

I'd like it if Quaithe was hiding a burned face, not a spider face: I believe Cornwell's 'Winter King' was a touchstone work for grrm and see parallels in it - sort of a shared palette of characters: the wicked princeling, the unacknowledged noble bastard, the repeat virgin bride, the one-handed warrior etc. The mask wearer was Morgan, whose face was horribly disfigured by fire. Sandor fits the bill too of course, but Quaithe is a better match for a magic user/priestess - it would be a nice little homage.

ETA

Another thing in Cornwell is that a child who survives the 'wrath' of a certain god is recognised as being especially beloved by that god. I sometimes wonder if burn victims are especially beloved of R'hllor - a baptism of fire, sort of thing. This is Moqorro: Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones.

ETA2

Alayne's hair is 'burnt brown' - reflecting the suffering she has gone through? The favour of the god? Or being forced into a new alignment with fire people, away from her ice heritage.

On 9/28/2021 at 11:58 AM, alienarea said:

Maybe GRRM should kill Sansa in the next book.

In an avalanche. Or a castle of snow. Either way, death is not what it used to be.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

All true... I looked up lacquer, and learned about tree sap, and wooden objects given shiny red finishes. That will do for me.

Trees are a more nuanced identity that pure ice - the Children use torches to drive off wights, and Quaithe's mask is sometimes starlight - the stars that burn and watch over the R'hllorists.

I'd like it if Quaithe was hiding a burned face, not a spider face: I believe Cornwell's 'Winter King' was a touchstone work for grrm and see parallels in it - sort of a shared palette of characters: the wicked princeling, the unacknowledged noble bastard, the repeat virgin bride, the one-handed warrior etc. The mask wearer was Morgan, whose face was horribly disfigured by fire. Sandor fits the bill too of course, but Quaithe is a better match for a magic user/priestess - it would be a nice little homage.

 

Don't forget Morna the White Witch and her mask.

As I've said above I believe that we will find partisans of both Ice and Fire who are working against the apocalypse

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Don't forget Morna the White Witch and her mask.

Look up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morana_(goddess)

My guess Morna is named after Morana aka Marena aka Mara.  A slavic goddess of winter.  To end winter you would either burn or drown an effigy of Morana.

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Alayne's hair is 'burnt brown' - reflecting the suffering she has gone through? The favour of the god? Or being forced into a new alignment with fire people, away from her ice heritage.

I like that analysis, but don't forget that ice burns too. 

[LongRider]

Her burnt brown hair is a dye and her 'bastard brave' persona is an assumed identity.  Who is Sansa now?

[alienarea]

On 10/1/2021 at 2:07 PM, LongRider said:

Harry becomes the Heir when Sweet Robin dies.  Will LF kill SR, or will Sansa emerge from Alanye in time to realize what LF is doing to SR and protect her only known living kin?

Looking at how far the tv series moves away from Sansa's storyline in the books, but the overall direction needs to stay the same, I can imagine that LF's tv series storyline from Winterfell takes place in the Vale in the books (apologies for the wording, trying to avoid spoiling).

[LongRider]

I didn’t watch the TV show and from what I have heard about it, it didn’t really have much to do with the books.  So I put no stock in that.  
 

If Sansa is going to be the Queen of Winter, currently with her presumed (under duress) Alayne identity, how would she get there? 

She has the Checkov hairnet and crazy Aunt Lisa’s Checkov confession in her pockets, will she use them?

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

I didn’t watch the TV show and from what I have heard about it, it didn’t really have much to do with the books.  So I put no stock in that.  
 

If Sansa is going to be the Queen of Winter, currently with her presumed (under duress) Alayne identity, how would she get there? 

She has the Checkov hairnet and crazy Aunt Lisa’s Checkov confession in her pockets, will she use them?

 

The Vale might become the last stronghold of men. While the rest of Westeros is heading for a winter war, the Vale became isolated by land (the high road will likely remain closed), Littlefinger blocked Gulltown and the Royces (plus other warmongers) will be busy getting rich by shipping food from their own ports. The Vale might only come out when is time to rebuild.

[Melifeather]

Gosh. I watched the show, but for the life of me I cannot recall if we ever saw Sweetrobin after his mother was pushed out the Moon Door. And the way Sansa got to Winterfell was weird. Didn't Littlefinger have her get in a carriage and then all of a sudden she's home? LOL Oh, wait, he lined up the marriage to Ramsay Bolton! The show condensed the story a bit. Sansa was forced to marry Ramsay rather than her childhood friend, Jeyne Poole, who in the books was forced to pretend she was Arya. Then doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger with a knife while at Winterfell? I honestly can't remember exactly how the show depicted the combined Sansa/fArya storylines. Sansa does get to keep Winterfell, but I don't recall them making her a queen. And Jon declines to stay at Winterfell and rides north....with....Tormund? LOL! Help me remember!

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Gosh. I watched the show, but for the life of me I cannot recall if we ever saw Sweetrobin after his mother was pushed out the Moon Door. And the way Sansa got to Winterfell was weird. Didn't Littlefinger have her get in a carriage and then all of a sudden she's home? LOL Oh, wait, he lined up the marriage to Ramsay Bolton! The show condensed the story a bit. Sansa was forced to marry Ramsay rather than her childhood friend, Jeyne Poole, who in the books was forced to pretend she was Arya. Then doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger with a knife while at Winterfell? I honestly can't remember exactly how the show depicted the combined Sansa/fArya storylines. Sansa does get to keep Winterfell, but I don't recall them making her a queen. And Jon declines to stay at Winterfell and rides north....with....Tormund? LOL! Help me remember!

Don’t you remember that Sweetrobin was on the council that err, voted (?) Bran in as king?  

Of course if you either didn’t make it that far into the train wreck, or intentionally blacked out the memory, I don’t blame you.

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Gosh. I watched the show, but for the life of me I cannot recall if we ever saw Sweetrobin after his mother was pushed out the Moon Door. And the way Sansa got to Winterfell was weird. Didn't Littlefinger have her get in a carriage and then all of a sudden she's home? LOL Oh, wait, he lined up the marriage to Ramsay Bolton! The show condensed the story a bit. Sansa was forced to marry Ramsay rather than her childhood friend, Jeyne Poole, who in the books was forced to pretend she was Arya. Then doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger with a knife while at Winterfell? I honestly can't remember exactly how the show depicted the combined Sansa/fArya storylines. Sansa does get to keep Winterfell, but I don't recall them making her a queen. And Jon declines to stay at Winterfell and rides north....with....Tormund? LOL! Help me remember!

The Stargate crossover was great. Just before the battle between Ramsay and Jon, Sansa opens the stargate south of Winterfell and travels to the Vale to get LF's help; as the stargate is also a time machine she arrives early and LF has time to call his banners.  Then they stargate again to arrive at WF just in time to save Jon and Tormund (everyone else dies).