Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Then they stargate again to arrive at WF just in time to save Jon and Tormund (everyone else dies).

Noooooo, Arya cuts everyone's throat* and then they all die. 

 

 

*Well, not all the throats, Arya cutoff Tormund's member and fed it to the goats.  

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Gosh. I watched the show, but for the life of me I cannot recall if we ever saw Sweetrobin after his mother was pushed out the Moon Door. And the way Sansa got to Winterfell was weird. Didn't Littlefinger have her get in a carriage and then all of a sudden she's home? LOL Oh, wait, he lined up the marriage to Ramsay Bolton! The show condensed the story a bit. Sansa was forced to marry Ramsay rather than her childhood friend, Jeyne Poole, who in the books was forced to pretend she was Arya. Then doesn't Sansa kill Littlefinger with a knife while at Winterfell? I honestly can't remember exactly how the show depicted the combined Sansa/fArya storylines. Sansa does get to keep Winterfell, but I don't recall them making her a queen. And Jon declines to stay at Winterfell and rides north....with....Tormund? LOL! Help me remember!

Since you started spoiling

- Sweet Robin makes it to the end and has a seat in the post-war council

- Littlefinger is sentenced to death by Sansa and executed by Arya in Winterfell

- Sansa becomes fArya and is married to Ramsay

...

=> I speculate that Sansa has Littlefinger executed in the Vale, not necessarily by Sansa

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Since you started spoiling

- Sweet Robin makes it to the end and has a seat in the post-war council

- Littlefinger is sentenced to death by Sansa and executed by Arya in Winterfell

- Sansa becomes fArya and is married to Ramsay

...

=> I speculate that Sansa has Littlefinger executed in the Vale, not necessarily by Sansa

I don't know that you can spoil something that aired over two years ago. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Since you started spoiling

- Sweet Robin makes it to the end and has a seat in the post-war council

- Littlefinger is sentenced to death by Sansa and executed by Arya in Winterfell

- Sansa becomes fArya and is married to Ramsay

...

=> I speculate that Sansa has Littlefinger executed in the Vale, not necessarily by Sansa

If we go back to reports of the infamous meeting in Santa Fe, the Mummers declared that they had pressed GRRM to reveal the story arc endings of a number of characters. Finding those reports may be tricky after all those years but I distinctly recall discussing our surprise that they had needed to pin GRRM to the wall anent some really significant characters, and the problem with that is twofold; first the arc goes awry because the mummers' existing story-lines portrayals and situations are not heading that way, and secondly, when they are asking pointed questions about really central characters such as Arya, it raises doubts about how far down the food chain they actually reached at the conference. GRRM has spoken before about characters being killed off before their time and whilst its possible to carry on with constant knotting and splicing the story does suffer.

I've suggested before that Bran's acknowledgement as High King is justified by the Mabinigion but that doesn't require the mummers' council meeting and if there's no meeting the members of that "council" may be expendable

[alienarea]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

If we go back to reports of the infamous meeting in Santa Fe, the Mummers declared that they had pressed GRRM to reveal the story arc endings of a number of characters. Finding those reports may be tricky after all those years but I distinctly recall discussing our surprise that they had needed to pin GRRM to the wall anent some really significant characters, and the problem with that is twofold; first the arc goes awry because the mummers' existing story-lines portrayals and situations are not heading that way, and secondly, when they are asking pointed questions about really central characters such as Arya, it raises doubts about how far down the food chain they actually reached at the conference. GRRM has spoken before about characters being killed off before their time and whilst its possible to carry on with constant knotting and splicing the story does suffer.

I've suggested before that Bran's acknowledgement as High King is justified by the Mabinigion but that doesn't require the mummers' council meeting and if there's no meeting the members of that "council" may be expendable

I wonder whether that whole meeting happened the way we are told. Maybe they just had a nice lunch and GRRM agreed to let them do what they want and also agreed to publish the final books only five (ten?) years after the tv show finished? That would explain a lot.

Just take Arya as an example. She is one of the main characters according to the original outline. For sure, D&D would have asked GRRM about her fate, especially given the dark forebodings with that Needle quote from the first book.

And what is Arya's fate according to the series? She more or less exterminates the Frey's (Stoneheart in the books?), executes Littlefinger (???), fucks Gendry(???), kills the Nightking (whom we do not have as a character in the books), the leaves Westeros alone by ship. I cannot believe this is what GRRM has planned for her.

Conclusion: either GRRM told them and they got amnesia immediately after, or the tv series ends in a different place.

[Frey family reunion]

53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

If we go back to reports of the infamous meeting in Santa Fe, the Mummers declared that they had pressed GRRM to reveal the story arc endings of a number of characters. Finding those reports may be tricky after all those years but I distinctly recall discussing our surprise that they had needed to pin GRRM to the wall anent some really significant characters, and the problem with that is twofold; first the arc goes awry because the mummers' existing story-lines portrayals and situations are not heading that way, and secondly, when they are asking pointed questions about really central characters such as Arya, it raises doubts about how far down the food chain they actually reached at the conference. GRRM has spoken before about characters being killed off before their time and whilst its possible to carry on with constant knotting and splicing the story does suffer.

I've suggested before that Bran's acknowledgement as High King is justified by the Mabinigion but that doesn't require the mummers' council meeting and if there's no meeting the members of that "council" may be expendable

This is kind of why I treat the show as the plot of the books held up to a funhouse mirror.  You can kind of make out the image, but it's comically distorted.  

The show never really created groundwork needed for a successful ending.  And then we have the issue of the missing characters.

Stoneheart, Young Griff, Connington, Val, Arianne, Jeyne Poole, Victarion Greyjoy, ect. ect.

So presumably the show runners took the characters still available, and gave them multiple roles.  My guess is Jon started moonlighting as Young Griff, and Dany as Val for example.  (which would explain the apparent instantaneous teleportations from north to south.  

Plus you have various needs of the producers that the book's plot might not have satisfied.  My guess is they badly needed a romance between Jon and Dany even if there were no plans for it in the books.  

My guess is up north,  in the books, we're going to see a more apocolyptic arrival of the Long Night, one that simply won't go away by stabbing the Night King with an obsidian blade.

And down south we're going to see destruction not just caused by a single dragon riding girl having a bad reaction to the ringing of bells.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is up north,  in the books, we're going to see a more apocolyptic arrival of the Long Night, one that simply won't go away by stabbing the Night King with an obsidian blade.

And down south we're going to see destruction not just caused by a single dragon riding girl having a bad reaction to the ringing of bells.

I have a distinct recollection that GRRM promised that disease will play a big part in what's to come

[Melifeather]

Do you think you'll watch House of the Dragon? Here's a preview:

 

One of the last comments really made me think. "Dreams didn't make us kings. Dragons did." Of course that's a nod to Daenys the Dreamer who had a prophetic dream about the destruction of Valyria. The dream was instrumental in moving her entire family to Dragonstone, which in turn led to Aegon and his sisters conquering Westeros. Having dragons and knowing how to use them doesn't exactly encourage kings and queens to be "just". If you always get your way simply because you have the power to burn cities with monstrous beasts, would your inclination be a benevolent ruler or bullying tyrant?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I have a distinct recollection that GRRM promised that disease will play a big part in what's to come

GRRM has been adding big plagues in F&B and Dunk&Egg: The Shivers in 59-60, the Winter Fever of 132-133 and the Great Spring Sickness of 209-210.

The Shivers is specially interesting as it was the first Westerosi disease to kill a Targ:

Quote

Since Aenar the Exile first staked his claim to Dragonstone, that had been known. Targaryens did not die of pox or the bloody flux, they were not afflicted with redspots or brownleg or the shaking sickness, they would not succumb to wormbone or clotted lung or sourgut or any of the myriad pestilences and contagions that the gods, for reasons of their own, see fit to loose on mortal men and women. There was fire in the blood of the dragon, it was reasoned, a purifying fire that burned out all such plagues. It was unthinkable that a pureborn princess should die shivering, as if she were some common child.

And yet she had.

 

[Tucu]

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think you'll watch House of the Dragon? Here's a preview:

 

One of the last comments really made me think. "Dreams didn't make us kings. Dragons did." Of course that's a nod to Daenys the Dreamer who had a prophetic dream about the destruction of Valyria. The dream was instrumental in moving her entire family to Dragonstone, which in turn led to Aegon and his sisters conquering Westeros. Having dragons and knowing how to use them doesn't exactly encourage kings and queens to be "just". If you always get your way simply because you have the power to burn cities with monstrous beasts, would your inclination be a benevolent ruler or bullying tyrant?

I always wanted a Doctor Who crossover :-)

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, alienarea said:

Conclusion: either GRRM told them and they got amnesia immediately after, or the tv series ends in a different place.

What’s the expression?  You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t keep it from taking a big dump in the trough.  Or something like that.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

What’s the expression?  You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t keep it from taking a big dump in the trough.  Or something like that.

Perish the thought, but GRRM may have been deliberately obtuse to protect his book

[alienarea]

On 10/6/2021 at 8:30 PM, Black Crow said:

Perish the thought, but GRRM may have been deliberately obtuse to protect his book

Agree with you on Bran becoming king in the end, but not king of westeros.

Would be a surprise ending if the army of the dead were stopped because they get Jon Connington and infect themselves with greyscale.

Wonder if (f)Aegon is the one to fall in love with and kill Daenerys - could make for a nice symmetry with Cersei killing Jaime.

 

[Melifeather]

We've already discussed how the upcoming tourney in the Vale will be a repeat of the Harrenhall Tourney, but I'd like to dig a little deeper into the parts that Myranda and Sansa are playing in the Alayne chapters.

In the Knight of the Laughing Tree story Meera calls Lyanna a "she-wolf" and later as the "wolf maid". She also describes a maid with laughing purple eyes and notes she danced with a white sword (Kingsguard), a red snake (Oberyn), and the lord of griffins (JonCon), and lastly with the quiet wolf (Ned). . . but only after the wild wolf (Brandon) spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Myranda Royce is a noblewoman, the daughter of Lord Nestor Royce - High Steward of the Vale, and I believe she is standing in as the understudy playing Lyanna. Whereas Sansa is in disguise as a bastard daughter of an up jumped lord. Petyr Baelish probably wasn't considered nobility until he married Lysa Arryn. These relationships make me wonder about Ashara's status. Is there a secret here? Is she a true born daughter of Starfall?

Think of this as a play. Arya was a mummer playing Lyanna until she left to become "no one" after which Myranda stepped into the role. Sansa is playing Ashara's part. This is why I think Ashara also lived for a time in disguise as a maid named Wylla. I wonder if the "maid with laughing purple eyes" was Ashara disguised as Wylla? Is this why Meera doesn't use names?

It bothers me that Ashara was a handmaid right when she should have been of marriageable age. Yes, Joanna Lannister was one of Rhaella's maids, but her father Jason, was a fourth son, and younger brother to Tytos Lannister - who was Tywin's father. She wasn't as high in importance as her daughter Cersei was. Wouldn't it be beneath a lord's daughter to be a handmaiden? Especially considering that a maid at court may lose her maidenhead? She would be much too valuable to be placed in such a risky position. As Barristan noted in his thoughts, Ashara had been pregnant, but her daughter had been stillborn. There’s also the fact that Barristan wasn’t a lord nor did he own any land so how could he even hope to turn Ashara’s head? Was Ashara a handmaiden, because she was pregnant or because she was actually Arthur Dayne's bastard sister?

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

We've already discussed how the upcoming tourney in the Vale will be a repeat of the Harrenhall Tourney, but I'd like to dig a little deeper into the parts that Myranda and Sansa are playing in the Alayne chapters.

In the Knight of the Laughing Tree story Meera calls Lyanna a "she-wolf" and later as the "wolf maid". She also describes a maid with laughing purple eyes and notes she danced with a white sword (Kingsguard), a red snake (Oberyn), and the lord of griffins (JonCon), and lastly with the quiet wolf (Ned). . . but only after the wild wolf (Brandon) spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Myranda Royce is a noblewoman, the daughter of Lord Nestor Royce - High Steward of the Vale, and I believe she is standing in as the understudy playing Lyanna. Whereas Sansa is in disguise as a bastard daughter of an up jumped lord. Petyr Baelish probably wasn't considered nobility until he married Lysa Arryn. These relationships make me wonder about Ashara's status. Is there a secret here? Is she a true born daughter of Starfall?

Think of this as a play. Arya was a mummer playing Lyanna until she left to become "no one" after which Myranda stepped into the role. Sansa is playing Ashara's part. This is why I think Ashara also lived for a time in disguise as a maid named Wylla. I wonder if the "maid with laughing purple eyes" was Ashara disguised as Wylla? Is this why Meera doesn't use names?

It bothers me that Ashara was a handmaid right when she should have been of marriageable age. Yes, Joanna Lannister was one of Rhaella's maids, but her father Jason, was a fourth son, and younger brother to Tytos Lannister - who was Tywin's father. She wasn't as high in importance as her daughter Cersei was. Wouldn't it be beneath a lord's daughter to be a handmaiden? Especially considering that a maid at court may lose her maidenhead? She would be much too valuable to be placed in such a risky position. As Barristan noted in his thoughts, Ashara had been pregnant, but her daughter had been stillborn. There’s also the fact that Barristan wasn’t a lord nor did he own any land so how could he even hope to turn Ashara’s head? Was Ashara a handmaiden, because she was pregnant or because she was actually Arthur Dayne's bastard sister?

 

The weird sexual aspect of the relationship between Alayne and Sweetrobin makes me think that Ashara's role in KL was to contain and control Aerys. Alayne is the one that convinces Sweetrobin to come out of the isolation of the Eyre and attend the tourney where everyone will likely see how far from sanity he is. Alayne is an agent of the Lord Protector so maybe Ashara was also an agent...was she working for Elia/Rhaegar, Tywin, both? Elia was sweet and gentle...like these other characters described as sweet and gentle (at least once): faceless Arya, 3-marriages Margaery, Littlefinger, plague-carrier Shireen, mad Cersei, poisonous Tyenne, spicy Jeyne Westerling.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The weird sexual aspect of the relationship between Alayne and Sweetrobin makes me think that Ashara's role in KL was to contain and control Aerys. Alayne is the one that convinces Sweetrobin to come out of the isolation of the Eyre and attend the tourney where everyone will likely see how far from sanity he is. Alayne is an agent of the Lord Protector so maybe Ashara was also an agent...was she working for Elia/Rhaegar, Tywin, both? Elia was sweet and gentle...like these other characters described as sweet and gentle (at least once): faceless Arya, 3-marriages Margaery, Littlefinger, plague-carrier Shireen, mad Cersei, poisonous Tyenne, spicy Jeyne Westerling.

I quite agree with what you’re saying. The parallels between Sweetrobin and Aerys are there, but who would be Petyr’s parallel during the Harrenhal tourney? Who would be Ashara’s father figure? Of course my first thought would be Tywin. He certainly is conniving enough.

[Melifeather]

The more I think about Littlefinger playing Tywin’s part the more this idea has legs. 
 

Petyr plots to elevate Sansa for his own political gain. He tells her to win over Harry, the heir to the Vale. At first Harry isn’t all that interested, because he only sees Alayne the bastard daughter of an up-jumped lord. He doesn’t realize who she really is. Sweetrobin is secondary at the moment. He may die of an epileptic seizure without any interference. And Alayne is his only solace. He has no idea how she’s been plotting behind his back.

Of course it’s Cersei that Tywin sought to elevate, but he may have used Ashara to both placate Aerys and pushed her towards Rhaegar “the heir”. Why would Ashara go along with Tywin’s plans? What did he promise? But again. It brings up the question of Ashara’s status and how she came to be Tywin’s pawn.

 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The more I think about Littlefinger playing Tywin’s part the more this idea has legs. 
 

Petyr plots to elevate Sansa for his own political gain. He tells her to win over Harry, the heir to the Vale. At first Harry isn’t all that interested, because he only sees Alayne the bastard daughter of an up-jumped lord. He doesn’t realize who she really is. Sweetrobin is secondary at the moment. He may die of an epileptic seizure without any interference. And Alayne is his only solace. He has no idea how she’s been plotting behind his back.

Of course it’s Cersei that Tywin sought to elevate, but he may have used Ashara to both placate Aerys and pushed her towards Rhaegar “the heir”. Why would Ashara go along with Tywin’s plans? What did he promise? But again. It brings up the question of Ashara’s status and how she came to be Tywin’s pawn.

 

Maybe Ashara is Tywin's bastard daughter?

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The more I think about Littlefinger playing Tywin’s part the more this idea has legs. 
 

Petyr plots to elevate Sansa for his own political gain. He tells her to win over Harry, the heir to the Vale. At first Harry isn’t all that interested, because he only sees Alayne the bastard daughter of an up-jumped lord. He doesn’t realize who she really is. Sweetrobin is secondary at the moment. He may die of an epileptic seizure without any interference. And Alayne is his only solace. He has no idea how she’s been plotting behind his back.

Of course it’s Cersei that Tywin sought to elevate, but he may have used Ashara to both placate Aerys and pushed her towards Rhaegar “the heir”. Why would Ashara go along with Tywin’s plans? What did he promise? But again. It brings up the question of Ashara’s status and how she came to be Tywin’s pawn.

 

F&B transformed Unwin Peake into a very Tywin-like character. A Hand/Regent of Aegon III that was obsessed with the honour of his house and with marrying his daughter (and heir) to the king. His network of catpaws, handmaidens (including Cassandra Baratheon) and spies might have been involved in the following:

-"suicide" of Jaehaera

-many of the events of the Maiden's Day curse in which several of the best candidates for queen were discredited by rumours, had accidents, were attacked by outlaws, killed or were captured and sold as slaves.

-poisoning of Daenaera after she became queen

-organising the coup and secret siege of Maegor Holdfast (probably intended to remove Viserys and his children from the line to the throne)

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

F&B transformed Unwin Peake into a very Tywin-like character. A Hand/Regent of Aegon III that was obsessed with the honour of his house and with marrying his daughter (and heir) to the king. His network of catpaws, handmaidens (including Cassandra Baratheon) and spies might have been involved in the following:

-"suicide" of Jaehaera

-many of the events of the Maiden's Day curse in which several of the best candidates for queen were discredited by rumours, had accidents, were attacked by outlaws, killed or were captured and sold as slaves.

-poisoning of Daenaera after she became queen

-organising the coup and secret siege of Maegor Holdfast (probably intended to remove Viserys and his children from the line to the throne)

You know I bought that Fire and Blood book back in 2018 and have yet to read it! With history repeating itself this story seems very relevant.