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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You know I bought that Fire and Blood book back in 2018 and have yet to read it! With history repeating itself this story seems very relevant. 

There are also small hints that point towards Unwin and Tywin playing the same role and having the same moves. For example these two lines:

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"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly." Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. "He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most."

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The remark drew nervous titters even from Lord Peake’s own handpicked men, Mushroom tells us, but the Hand was not amused. “He was not a man who liked to laugh himself,” the dwarf says, “and he liked being laughed at even less.”

F&B has a lot of "all of this will happen before and all of this will happen again" hints. Worth reading just to hunt for them.

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21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are also small hints that point towards Unwin and Tywin playing the same role and having the same moves. For example these two lines:

F&B has a lot of "all of this will happen before and all of this will happen again" hints. Worth reading just to hunt for them.

I'll have to read this before commenting, but the posts you've highlighted certainly sound like they describe a Tywin character! Even the name "Unwin"...reminds me of the Ossifer Lipps and Uther Shett names.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

There are also small hints that point towards Unwin and Tywin playing the same role and having the same moves. For example these two lines:

F&B has a lot of "all of this will happen before and all of this will happen again" hints. Worth reading just to hunt for them.

Have you identified an "Ashara" character?

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Have you identified an "Ashara" character?

Not close enough but there are two handmaidens acting as agents to the Hand that could be:

-Coryanne Wylde, a dishonored lady tasked by Rogar Baratheon with seducing Jaehaerys to break up his marriage to Alysanne. She fails and dissapears from Westeros. Years later she writes a book that Tyrion reads while in the Shy Maid; the books tells her story from handmaiden to slave and finally to septa:

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If the author’s tale is true (parts of it strain credulity), during the course of her life she found herself a handmaid to a queen, the paramour of a young knight, a camp follower in the Disputed Lands of Essos, a serving wench in Myr, a mummer in Tyrosh, the plaything of a corsair queen in the Basilisk Isles, a slave in Old Volantis (where she was tattooed, pierced, and ringed), the handmaid of a Qartheen warlock, and finally the mistress of a pleasure house in Lys … before ultimately returning to Oldtown and the Faith. Purportedly she ended her life as a septa in the Starry Sept, where she set down this story of her life to warn other young maids not to do as she had done.

Coryanne could be closer to Lemore than Ashara

-Alicent Hightower, brought by Otto Hightower (then Hand) to KL and was Jaehaerys companion in his last years. According to Mushroom she was also Jaehaerys' and Viserys' lover before becoming queen.

There are more handmaidens involved in the different playthroughs of the games of thrones but these two stand out.

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30 minutes ago, Tucu said:

-Coryanne Wylde, a dishonored lady tasked by Rogar Baratheon with seducing Jaehaerys to break up his marriage to Alysanne. She fails and dissapears from Westeros. Years later she writes a book that Tyrion reads while in the Shy Maid; the books tells her story from handmaiden to slave and finally to septa:

If you ask me, Coryanne sounds like a close match! I mean, come on man! She's dishonored! There's a connection to a Baratheon! She's sent to seduce the king! She disappears! 

Tyrion reads about her while on the Shy Maid which is the Dornish boat that provided passage down the Rhoyne for Young Griff. I agree that the transition from handmaiden, to slave, to septa does sound like Lenore, who I currently believe is Rhaella. While I do expect to see repeats of certain elements, I don't believe that they have to be exact one-to-one parallels. For example, if I am right that Lenore is Rhaella, then the Shy Maid is more likely a link to her or even Elia rather than to Ashara.

The thing about pole boats is, they are usually intricately carved and brightly painted, but the Shy Maid is neither. Her paintwork is a muddy greyish brown, mottled and flaking; her big curved tiller, plain and unadorned, which to me is a hint that the plain outward appearance of Lady Lenore is just a cover for a once splendid queen.

The ship named the Sloe-Eyed Maid would be more apt to refer to Ashara. When Daenerys first saw the Sloe-Eyed Maid in Qarth, she thought the ship too small for her purposes. Later on the Sloe-Eyed Maid with a cargo of spices, was blown from the Bite onto the rocks of Sweetsister. Lord Godric Borel served Davos a stew made with spices from the wreck, and he told him the story of the fisherman's daughter, connecting the name of the ship to the daughter with Ned's bastard in her belly.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

If you ask me, Coryanne sounds like a close match! I mean, come on man! She's dishonored! There's a connection to a Baratheon! She's sent to seduce the king! She disappears! 

Tyrion reads about her while on the Shy Maid which is the Dornish boat that provided passage down the Rhoyne for Young Griff. I agree that the transition from handmaiden, to slave, to septa does sound like Lenore, who I currently believe is Rhaella. While I do expect to see repeats of certain elements, I don't believe that they have to be exact one-to-one parallels. For example, if I am right that Lenore is Rhaella, then the Shy Maid is more likely a link to her or even Elia rather than to Ashara.

The thing about pole boats is, they are usually intricately carved and brightly painted, but the Shy Maid is neither. Her paintwork is a muddy greyish brown, mottled and flaking; her big curved tiller, plain and unadorned, which to me is a hint that the plain outward appearance of Lady Lenore is just a cover for a once splendid queen.

The ship named the Sloe-Eyed Maid would be more apt to refer to Ashara. When Daenerys first saw the Sloe-Eyed Maid in Qarth, she thought the ship too small for her purposes. Later on the Sloe-Eyed Maid with a cargo of spices, was blown from the Bite onto the rocks of Sweetsister. Lord Godric Borel served Davos a stew made with spices from the wreck, and he told him the story of the fisherman's daughter, connecting the name of the ship to the daughter with Ned's bastard in her belly.

 

 

There is one extra bit that might point to Ashara: Coryanne escapes from Dragonstone to Driftmark with her lover and some jewels in a fishing boat; from there she continues to Pentos . This might link to Ned and the fisherman's daughter and to the fate of the Sloe-eyed maid.

Coryanne's escape from Dragonstone also links to Elissa Farman that stole the 3 dragon eggs from Dragonstone, escaping through Driftmark and Pentos (and finally overland to Braavos)

Edit: BTW, Queen Asha is the only "shy maid" in the books. She is also the wayward bride, the king's price and the sacrifice.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Edit: BTW, Queen Asha is the only "shy maid" in the books. She is also the wayward bride, the king's price and the sacrifice.

Asha is anything but shy, but yes, she uses it many times facetiously. 

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A Clash of Kings - Theon II

He could feel the flush creeping up his cheeks. "I'm a man with a man's hungers. What sort of unnatural creature are you?"

"Only a shy maid." Asha's hand darted out under the table to give his cock a squeeze. Theon nearly jumped from his chair. "What, don't you want me to steer you into port, brother?"

 

Jeyne Westerling is also described as a shy maid:

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

"The honor is mine," Catelyn said. Can Robb have won the Crag's allegiance? If so, it was no wonder the Westerlings were with him. Casterly Rock did not suffer such betrayals gently. Not since Tywin Lannister had been old enough to go to war . . .

The maid came forward last, and very shy. Robb took her hand. "Mother," he said, "I have the great honor to present you the Lady Jeyne Westerling. Lord Gawen's elder daughter, and my . . . ah . . . my lady wife."

The first thought that flew across Catelyn's mind was, No, that cannot be, you are only a child.

 

Roslin Frey is described as a shy maid as is Brienne of Tarth.

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13 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Asha is anything but shy, but yes, she uses it many times facetiously. 

Jeyne Westerling is also described as a shy maid:

Roslin Frey is described as a shy maid as is Brienne of Tarth.

I did a exact search so I missed the others. Brienne is the odd one out there; the other 3 are queens or almost queens

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On 10/13/2021 at 6:47 AM, Tucu said:

Not close enough but there are two handmaidens acting as agents to the Hand that could be:

-Coryanne Wylde, a dishonored lady tasked by Rogar Baratheon with seducing Jaehaerys to break up his marriage to Alysanne. She fails and dissapears from Westeros. Years later she writes a book that Tyrion reads while in the Shy Maid; the books tells her story from handmaiden to slave and finally to septa:

Coryanne could be closer to Lemore than Ashara

Fancy that! :D

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Getting back to Sansa the Snow Queen.

She is not the Snow Queen in my opinion.

Yes, she received the "snowflake communion" and we have her slaying a giant (of Bravos ;) ) in the castle of ice.

But, the Snow Queen has to be the corpse queen that the Night King saw from the wall.

Maybe it's Val. Maybe Quaithe.

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Getting back to Sansa the Snow Queen.

She is not the Snow Queen in my opinion.

Yes, she received the "snowflake communion" and we have her slaying a giant (of Bravos ;) ) in the castle of ice.

But, the Snow Queen has to be the corpse queen that the Night King saw from the wall.

Maybe it's Val. Maybe Quaithe.

Death, as we know, aint what it used to be and  I'd be wary of interpreting the Night King's corpse Queen too literally. To the world at large Sansa Stark the daughter of Winterfell is dead. 

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1 hour ago, LongRider said:

If past tournaments are prolong, then perhaps Alayne will see a knight from the Vale die in front of her. What better prospect than Harry the Heir.   :fencing:

Will he be part of the jousting?  I don't think he wants to be one of Robin's winged knights.  So perhaps the melee?  I'll be curious to see how he participates and if the Mad Mouse takes him out.  Unintentionally of course.

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Was anyone killed at the Harrenhal tourney? Not saying it couldn't happen, but it isn't part of the historical cycle. The deaths come later in the rebellion that follows the tourney. Littlefinger is playing a role that Tywin filled in the past. He'll be writing letters to various lords trying to gather his group of rebels to go against the crown.

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Will he be part of the jousting?  

Hard to say how he’ll participate, but I do remember that knives were given out to the participants as welcome gifts.   So, before it even starts there are lots of new shiny weapons around. 

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14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Death, as we know, aint what it used to be and  I'd be wary of interpreting the Night King's corpse Queen too literally. To the world at large Sansa Stark the daughter of Winterfell is dead. 

It's not about being dead. Would Sansa ever be called Wolfmaid?

 

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17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Was anyone killed at the Harrenhal tourney? Not saying it couldn't happen, but it isn't part of the historical cycle. The deaths come later in the rebellion that follows the tourney. Littlefinger is playing a role that Tywin filled in the past. He'll be writing letters to various lords trying to gather his group of rebels to go against the crown.

Perhaps if it is Harrenhal 2 it will be followed by a kidnapping

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