Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[asongofheresy]

Hello everyone, formerly Jova Snow here, I neglected asoiaf forums because I picked up other series while waiting for TWOW and I feel like I get rusty, but since there is nothing to occupy me anymore, I will try to be more active here instead of reddit, hope we can have great discussions. 

[LynnS]

A random thought triggered by another thread.  This dream of Jon's:  

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

"Drink this." Grenn held a cup to his lips. Jon drank. His head was full of wolves and eagles, the sound of his brothers' laughter. The faces above him began to blur and fade. They can't be dead. Theon would never do that. And Winterfell . . . grey granite, oak and iron, crows wheeling around the towers, steam rising off the hot pools in the godswood, the stone kings sitting on their thrones . . . how could Winterfell be gone?

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.

This dream of his father watching him while he cavorts with Ygritte in a hot pool, turns into a dream of her body being rendered to bones.  I wonder if this is Jon accessing a weirwood memory of Ned's and the body is actually Lyanna confused on Jon's mind with Ygritte.  I'm assuming that Ned's ghost was drawn back to Winterfell by the heart tree itself.

The reason I'm wondering about it is because of Jon's crypt dream where he he hears the feast on the other side of the wall (Theon's dream) and senses a lamp going out (Jaimie's dream).  The dream of Ned's weirwood faces watching over Lyanna's body? seems like something similar.

It seems like Jon has nearly pierced the veil or weirwood memories are leaking to him.  Could this be a time and causality effect?  Something that happen to him in the future with Bran (the Tree-Bran, Ghost-John) encounter that changes his reception or ability to perceive such things.

Could this be why Jon is the only one who hears Ghost when the pups are found?  That he doesn't actually hear Ghost with his ears, but with his mind?  An effect of Tree-Bran opening or activating Jon's 3rd eye at the Skirling Pass but also opening the gates a crack for Jon to sense images from the weirnet.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

 

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Hello everyone, formerly Jova Snow here, I neglected asoiaf forums because I picked up other series while waiting for TWOW and I feel like I get rusty, but since there is nothing to occupy me anymore, I will try to be more active here instead of reddit, hope we can have great discussions. 

I curious which other series you picked up.

[asongofheresy]

3 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I curious which other series you picked up.

I finished Attack on Titan again, initially I only read until chapter 90 but I did continue the series and watched part 1 of latest season as well. Other than that I have started My Hero Academia, One Punch Man, and the ATLA comics. I am afraid they aren't quiet the same as ASOIAF. 

[asongofheresy]

A quick question, I do know the infamous peach of Renly and its significance was discussed before but did we ever tied it to the Peach Boy Hero? It's a legend about a Japanese hero who had a talking dog, a talking bird, and a talking monkey as his companions who traveled to an island to hunt down demons. He is referred as the Peach Boy Hero because he was found inside a giant peach that was floating down a river, an old couple take the fruit to eat it but find a baby inside it instead, we don't have a concept of peach baby in asoiaf but iirc Gendry questions if Arya thought her bastard brother Jon was a cabbage baby right? Can Jon with ghost, raven of Jeor, plus a CotF can have a hand in hunting down ice demons? 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

I finished Attack on Titan again, initially I only read until chapter 90 but I did continue the series and watched part 1 of latest season as well. Other than that I have started My Hero Academia, One Punch Man, and the ATLA comics. I am afraid they aren't quiet the same as ASOIAF. 

That's a lot of comics, cool. I read the Legacy of the Force some years ago before Disney took over.  Also started rendering pictures and made released another album. You got to do something until the next book shows up.

https://youtu.be/P36D3DbEjU0

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

A quick question, I do know the infamous peach of Renly and its significance was discussed before but did we ever tied it to the Peach Boy Hero? It's a legend about a Japanese hero who had a talking dog, a talking bird, and a talking monkey as his companions who traveled to an island to hunt down demons. He is referred as the Peach Boy Hero because he was found inside a giant peach that was floating down a river, an old couple take the fruit to eat it but find a baby inside it instead, we don't have a concept of peach baby in asoiaf but iirc Gendry questions if Arya thought her bastard brother Jon was a cabbage baby right? Can Jon with ghost, raven of Jeor, plus a CotF can have a hand in hunting down ice demons? 

Maybe Meera instead of a CotF? Jon, Ghost, the raven and Meera hunting White Walkers could work as graphic novel.

[asongofheresy]

9 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Maybe Meera instead of a CotF? Jon, Ghost, the raven and Meera hunting White Walkers could work as graphic novel.

You are right that it will make a good graphic novel, I have mentioned CotF due to Last Hero's connection to them, also the woman with monkey tail from Bloodstone emperor's story could be a hint to CotF as well

[asongofheresy]

"The armor had been made of silver and gold, the knights of jade and beryl and onyx and tourmaline, of amber and opal and amethyst, each as tall as her little finger." ACOK Daenerys 3, I know Daenerys' dream about gemstone kings are mentioned in discussion but is this tidbit also a clue about other GEotD? There is also the gemstone thrones of Qartheen, the wiki list onyx, jade, lapis, and amber, could the list grow over time, or should it stay as eight as Yi Ti claims? 

[Melifeather]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:55 AM, Black Crow said:

Perhaps if it is Harrenhal 2 it will be followed by a kidnapping

I agree. Shadrich will abduct Sansa, but since he’s a parallel to Howland maybe she will leave with him willingly and another character will play the “Rhaegar” abductor role…someone that Littlefinger sends to find Sansa.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I agree. Shadrich will abduct Sansa, but since he’s a parallel to Howland maybe she will leave with him willingly and another character will play the “Rhaegar” abductor role…someone that Littlefinger sends to find Sansa.

I'm not sure where they would go with Winter coming on..  Seems to me she is still safer where she is and her fortune still lies with LF.  But I can see some bounty hunter attempting to make off with her only to be foiled by the Mad Mouse.   

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure where they would go with Winter coming on..  Seems to me she is still safer where she is and her fortune still lies with LF.  But I can see some bounty hunter attempting to make off with her only to be foiled by the Mad Mouse.   

Lyanna was abducted right when winter “returned with a vengeance “.

[asongofheresy]

Was Lyanna kidnapped when winter returned with a vengeance, or did winter return because she was kidnapped? 

[Tucu]

33 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Lyanna was abducted right when winter “returned with a vengeance “.

I wonder at what point GRRM will close the curtain of the mummer's play and go back to Sansa's chapters. Maybe when the tourney ends. So the abduction might not be covered. We will have to wait and see.

Alayne 's chapters are running a bit behind the rest of of POVs. . LF says "Winter is coming" in Alayne I TWOW. But the high road was closed earlier during Autumn as mentioned in one of Brienne chapters.

[alienarea]

Something else.

The dead direwolf mother.

- does it foreshadow Cat's death?

- as Ghost has walked away and already opened his eyes, is this a hint that Jon is older than his siblings?

- Ghost is "of the old gods". Is this a hint Jon's mother is "from the old gods", i.e. from a first men family?

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Was Lyanna kidnapped when winter returned with a vengeance, or did winter return because she was kidnapped? 

The snowstorms and the cold wind came back before:

Quote

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

[Melifeather]

If Shadrich is Howland, he may reveal himself to Sansa in order to convince her to come away with him.
I think Harry the heir is reprising the role of Robert for a few reasons.

First off, even though Sansa is replaying Ashara, Littlefinger is trying to make a political marriage alliance between the Vale and the North.

Secondly, like Robert, Harry is a ward of the Vale, specifically he’s Lady Anya Waynwood‘s ward.

Thirdly, he is Jon Arryn’s cousin. This is a spin of Robert being related to the Targaryens.

Fourth, Lady Waynwood’s sons, Donnell and Wallace, are stand-ins for Brandon and Ned Stark when Wallace is too shy to ask Alayne to dance.

[asongofheresy]

In one of the Heresy threads there was a mention of Simeon Stareyes "seeing" hellhounds fighting and it was speculated him seeing that event as a greenseer, and it made me think of Sybassion Eater of Eyes, was he attempting to skinchange animals/humans to gain information and only become successful at this attempts after magic returned to Essos/the world? 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Sybassion Eater of Eyes

Sybassion is a character that I associate with the undying in the House of Undying.  After Dany escapes and sets the place on fire; this is what Xaro tells Dany:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

So Blind Sybassion can see again. One of the shades that Dany encounters in the HoU, also seems to be an eye-eater:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

So I have wondered if Sybassion is someone who has gone into the HoU and left a part of himself there, feeding off the Blue heart and whatever life sustains it.  One of the old warlocks that Xaro refers to.  And if the consequence of burning down the HoU is that these shades are released back into the world allowing Blind Sybassion to see again.

[asongofheresy]

There is a House Sloane (sloe?) in Reach with a banner of half indigo and half yellow, indigo side has white stars, and yellow side has a red sun, isn't the imagery so Dornish? Immediately brings the mind Dayne and Martells, interestingly both families can be described with sloe eyes.

A small addition, I am currently interested in learning more about Baelor and Naerys, and their relationship through TWOIAF, I believe there can be echoes of Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna situation in that time, a long with hints about their children, though I am not sure how true this hunch is.