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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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9 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The tale of the fisherman's daughter have Ned and presumably Wylla parting ways, because he gave her a sack of coins.

I'd like to believe that Ned only pretended to leave "Wylla" so that anyone that saw them would believe they parted ways. They could have easily met up again away from prying eyes so that he could secretly take Ashara to Winterfell. This would make Jon's birth as being the same as the Bastard O'Winterfell tale where the babe was born in the crypts. The Lord Stark thought his daughter was dead until she showed up with Bael's bastard nearly a year after she had gone missing. If Jon's mother isn't actually dead, then it could be said that he had been born with the dead - just like his wolf pup Ghost. It's a twisted joke based on a grain of truth sort of like Lord Plumm's "six-foot cock". The joke is how could he have fathered his child if he was dead?

Ned crossed the Bite in order to go home and call his banners. He would have been too busy to plan a wedding if he originally planned on marrying Ashara. Maybe he told her they'd marry later? I'm just spitballing here. Then the need for soldiers to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept put an end to marrying for love. Ned needed a political marriage to gain an ally, so he broke his promise to Ashara and married Catelyn.

As a jilted bride, Ashara would have had bleak prospects much like Lollys Stokeworth. Rather than be subjected to an undesirable match, Ashara would rather fake a suicide and assume a new identity - one that she had already used when she traveled across the Bite with Ned.

Ned's journey to North from Vale is interesting, Order of the Greenhand had a NAJ video about the possible timeline of that journey, I don't know if Ashara and Jon, if she is really the mother, was in the crypts or not, but I do think Lyanna the Stark Maiden was in the crypts instead, and I place Ashara and Jon at Wolf's Den since the place was build by a Jon Stark that fought against Essosi slavers. 

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14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Upthread I asserted that Tyrion and friends were floating through the Sorrows right at the time that the seasons were allowed to move forward. You seem to have found a second example. The Wall was weeping as summer was giving up the ghost, the summer king died, and the change of seasons caused the skirling wind which were like eddies in a river of time. Tyrion's group was attacked when the season changed and so was Jon's group.  These two events must have occurred at the same time. 

I wonder if we can find more examples?

I'll need to look it up but isn't there a vision of the destruction of Hardhome which features a mist of fog rolling over everything to silence the screaming >

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I vaguely recall Martin saying something about Stephen King's story "The Fog".  But I don't remember specifics.  I went looking for a quote and found this:  

Quote

And he spoke very slowly, in a voice that was also like fog, that drifted and curled and hid things, and you knew that there were mysteries there and things brooding just out of sight and far-off lights that you would never reach. Laren.

From something called Kalima quotes:

And he spoke very sl.. - George R. R. Martin - KalimaQuotes

Looks like it's from a short story Martin published in 1976.:

The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr - Fantasy Magazine (fantasy-magazine.com)

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Ah I loved the story you posted, there is an early mention of Bakkalon, the Seven, and Saagel there, and the girl is named Sharra, with dark hair that has a hint of red, and grey eyes, a mix of Lyanna, Sansa, and Ashara perhaps, are the Seven an enemy of wighting or reanimation? And Lauren Dorr, with his charcoal hair and dark eyes, is he a Jon figure? 

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'll need to look it up but isn't there a vision of the destruction of Hardhome which features a mist of fog rolling over everything to silence the screaming >

I don’t recall, but now you’ve got me interested in looking this up.

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The Hardhome vision is the one with the grey and white dance:

Quote

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

 

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40 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Ah I loved the story you posted, there is an early mention of Bakkalon, the Seven, and Saagel there, and the girl is named Sharra, with dark hair that has a hint of red, and grey eyes, a mix of Lyanna, Sansa, and Ashara perhaps, are the Seven an enemy of wighting or reanimation? And Lauren Dorr, with his charcoal hair and dark eyes, is he a Jon figure? 

Yes, it's interesting that he has had another version of the Seven as far back as 1976.  I'd say some very rudimentary themes show up in this story.  I think GRRM may have been a bit of a romantic back then.  The idea that gates/doors are used to travel between worlds is germane to our story, although we are talking about the demimonde; between like and death or what lies behind the veil, rather than a sci-fi construct of moving between actual worlds.  In ASOIAF, he seems to be using mists and fogs to signify that in-between place, where what is on the other side can cross over.

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8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Notice Asha's repetition (loop?)

I like the idea of repetition loops; that something is being reset or affected in some way. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead

.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

"Jon would never. Lord Snow did. Sometimes there is no happy choice, Sam, only one less grievous than the others."

No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens, the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

 I've always thought there was something glitchy about these repetitions, the mind stuttering for some reason..

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17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's interesting that he has had another version of the Seven as far back as 1976.  I'd say some very rudimentary themes show up in this story.  I think GRRM may have been a bit of a romantic back then.  The idea that gates/doors are used to travel between worlds is germane to our story, although we are talking about the demimonde; between like and death or what lies behind the veil, rather than a sci-fi construct of moving between actual worlds.  In ASOIAF, he seems to be using mists and fogs to signify that in-between place, where what is on the other side can cross over.

Wasn't GRRM a hippie, would that explain the romantism? Could the caves, and mazes, and gates like the Black Gate of asoiaf serve as portals in some way, who are their guardians, does the seven in our story against people who can pass through them? 

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The Hardhome vision is the one with the grey and white dance:

This is of course Melisandre's vision and she equates the skulls to death - the impossibly cold mist carried on the wind, but re-reading this sounds like it might be about the Wall rather than Hardhome. I'm a little conflicted.

Quote

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

The flaming arrows were flung over a wooden wall. Where might this be? Wouldn't the great grey cliff be the Wall? If it is Hardhome, would hundreds of caves be enough for the thousands of wildlings said to be sheltering there?

Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has a natural harbor deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. There's a storied history there with something described as a volcano:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"All that's true, I don't doubt," said Yarwyck, "but it's not a place I'd want to spend a night. You know the tale."

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. "It is not the sort of refuge I'd chose either," Jon said, "but Mother Mole was heard to preach that the free folk would find salvation where once they found damnation."

BUT, it is described as having caves:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"And saved the Wall, mayhaps," said Bowen Marsh. "These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst the ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them."

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

"Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings."

 

An Arya chapter discusses the wildlings that were taken as slaves from Hardhome:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

 

LC Jon Snow asks Melisandre to go over her vision again:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"The same, I fear. Only snow."

Snow. It was snowing heavily to the south, Jon knew. Only two days' ride from here, the kingsroad was said to be impassable. Melisandre knows that too. And to the east, a savage storm was raging on the Bay of Seals. At last report, the ragtag fleet they had assembled to rescue the free folk from Hardhome still huddled at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, confined to port by the rough seas. "You are seeing cinders dancing in the updraft."

"I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now."

 

 

Arya told the Kindly Man about the two Lyseni ships. One, the Goodheart made it to Braavos, the other, the Elephant continued on to Lys. Cotter Pyke has no idea that the Lyseni ships took the wildlings as slaves:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

Jon was washing the roast down with a sip of mulled wine when Clydas appeared at his elbow. "A bird," he announced, and slipped a parchment into Jon's hand. The note was sealed with a dot of hard black wax. Eastwatch, Jon knew, even before he broke the seal. The letter had been written by Maester Harmune; Cotter Pyke could neither read nor write. But the words were Pyke's, set down as he had spoken them, blunt and to the point.

Calm seas today. Eleven ships set sail for Hardhome on the morning tide. Three Braavosi, four Lyseni, four of ours. Two of the Lyseni barely seaworthy. We may drown more wildlings than we save. Your command. Twenty ravens aboard, and Maester Harmune. Will send reports. I command from Talon, Tattersalt second on Blackbird, Ser Glendon holds Eastwatch.

 

 

Cotter Pyke writes to Jon again. He claims the Lyseni ships were driven aground on Skane, but they must have been able to get going again if the Goodheart made it to Braavos. The three Braavosi ships also will only take women and children, so more wildlings taken as slaves :

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"You did well." Jon read:

At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune.

Cotter Pyke had made his angry mark below.

 

Mother Mole refused Cotter Pyke's help, because she thought he and his men were slavers just like the Braavosi and Lyseni. The battle killed six men of the Watch. He asks Jon to send them help. I gather that Cotter Pyke wants help for him and his men and not necessarily the for the wildlings. His signature looked angry.

There must have been many thousands of wildlings at Hardhome if ships were able to take some away and still leave thousands behind. Circling back to the question as to whether or not there was evidence of fog or swirling winds. Melisandre's vision certainly had white mist and swirling, but the detail that actually stands out more to me is the screaming caves.

 

 

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This "wooden wall" has captured my interest. Who was shooting flaming arrows and where did this happen? What I'm wondering is, is this vision actually a scene from a seemingly unrelated battle? When Arya was with the Brotherhood Without Banners, they attacked the Brave Companions that were holed up with some Dothraki in a septry. 

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

The eastern horizon glowed gold and pink, and overhead a half moon peeked out through low scuttling clouds. The wind blew cold, and Arya could hear the rush of water and the creak of the mill's great wooden waterwheel. There was a smell of rain in the dawn air, but no drops were falling yet. Flaming arrows flew through the morning mists, trailing pale ribbons of fire, and thudded into the wooden walls of the septry. A few smashed through shuttered windows, and soon enough thin tendrils of smoke were rising between the broken shutters.

Two Mummers came bursting from the septry side by side, axes in their hands. Anguy and the other archers were waiting. One axeman died at once. The other managed to duck, so the shaft ripped through his shoulder. He staggered on, till two more arrows found him, so quickly it was hard to say which had struck first. The long shafts punched through his breastplate as if it had been made of silk instead of steel. He fell heavily. Anguy had arrows tipped with bodkins as well as broadheads. A bodkin could pierce even heavy plate. I'm going to learn to shoot a bow, Arya thought. She loved swordfighting, but she could see how arrows were good too.

Flames were creeping up the west wall of the septry, and thick smoke poured through a broken window. A Myrish crossbowman poked his head out a different window, got off a bolt, and ducked down to rewind. She could hear fighting from the stables as well, shouts well mingled with the screams of horses and the clang of steel. Kill them all, she thought fiercely. She bit her lip so hard she tasted blood. Kill every single one.

This battle occurred shortly after Sandor killed Beric, then Thoros used magic to resurrect him. I wonder if magic also helps the Brotherhood Without Banners win every battle. The descriptive wording, "the wind blew cold", "the rush of water", "morning mists", "trailing pale ribbons of fire", and "tendrils of smoke" seem to imply that magic is being used. For GRRM to insert "flaming arrows" and "wooden walls" in one of Melisandre's visions is intended us to help us remember this scene and conclude that magic was involved.

 

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50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is of course Melisandre's vision and she equates the skulls to death - the impossibly cold mist carried on the wind, but re-reading this sounds like it might be about the Wall rather than Hardhome. I'm a little conflicted.

The flaming arrows were flung over a wooden wall. Where might this be? Wouldn't the great grey cliff be the Wall? If it is Hardhome, would hundreds of caves be enough for the thousands of wildlings said to be sheltering there?

Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has a natural harbor deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. There's a storied history there with something described as a volcano:

BUT, it is described as having caves:

 

An Arya chapter discusses the wildlings that were taken as slaves from Hardhome:

 

LC Jon Snow asks Melisandre to go over her vision again:

 

Arya told the Kindly Man about the two Lyseni ships. One, the Goodheart made it to Braavos, the other, the Elephant continued on to Lys. Cotter Pyke has no idea that the Lyseni ships took the wildlings as slaves:

 

Cotter Pyke writes to Jon again. He claims the Lyseni ships were driven aground on Skane, but they must have been able to get going again if the Goodheart made it to Braavos. The three Braavosi ships also will only take women and children, so more wildlings taken as slaves :

Mother Mole refused Cotter Pyke's help, because she thought he and his men were slavers just like the Braavosi and Lyseni. The battle killed six men of the Watch. He asks Jon to send them help. I gather that Cotter Pyke wants help for him and his men and not necessarily the for the wildlings. His signature looked angry.

There must have been many thousands of wildlings at Hardhome if ships were able to take some away and still leave thousands behind. Circling back to the question as to whether or not there was evidence of fog or swirling winds. Melisandre's vision certainly had white mist and swirling, but the detail that actually stands out more to me is the screaming caves.

 

Hardhome sits below a great cliff; from one of your quotes: "the great cliff that loomed above the settlement".

Given the cliff and the caves Hardhome is probably the best guess regarding the location of the vision. The presence of a wooden wall is odd; was there enough time to build a wall? What we can't be sure if this was a vision from the past, a will-be vision or a might-have-been vision.

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12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Hardhome sits below a great cliff; from one of your quotes: "the great cliff that loomed above the settlement".

Given the cliff and the caves Hardhome is probably the best guess regarding the location of the vision. The presence of a wooden wall is odd; was there enough time to build a wall? What we can't be sure if this was a vision from the past, a will-be vision or a might-have-been vision.

Melisandre does say: 

Quote

When I gaze into the flames, I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth within men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days.

Jon asks:

Quote

 

Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

 

 

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47 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Mel’s fires never wrong?  Maybe, but her interpretations can be and frequently are. Arya on a grey horse, nope. Nothing but snow, she misses what the Snow was trying to show her. 

The factual part was that a girl did ride to the Wall on a dying grey horse. The incorrect part was who she was. The same could be said for her visions of Jon with skulls surrounding him. She claims his enemies smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back, but there are a number of things to consider. 

1) Bowen Marsh never hid his dislike of Jon Snow, so is he one of the smiling enemies?

2) Tormund acts pretty friendly towards Jon, but is he truly his friend?

3) Who or what were the skulls surrounding the fires in the cliff caves? Is the entity or identities behind the skulls the same skulls that surround Jon Snow?

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

3) Who or what were the skulls surrounding the fires in the cliff caves? Is the entity or identities behind the skulls the same skulls that surround Jon Snow?

I am beginning to think that Bloodraven (or Bran) used Othor and Jafer to kill Jeor Mormont on purpose, because they needed a Stark bastard to become the Lord Commander. The skulls surrounding Jon could be symbolic of pointing a finger at the cave of skulls where Bloodraven and Bran live. Are the skulls at Hardhome the same skulls that surround Jon? If they are, why would they want the wildings at Hardhome killed? Are they building an army of the dead for a dead Jon Snow a new Nights King?

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I like the idea of repetition loops; that something is being reset or affected in some way.

 I've always thought there was something glitchy about these repetitions, the mind stuttering for some reason..

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Melisandre does say: 

Jon asks:

Glitches in the Matrix. I like to think of Bran sitting outside time trying different combinations and like Sam concluding:

Quote

"No. No, that's wrong. Jon would never . . ."

"Jon would never. Lord Snow did. Sometimes there is no happy choiceonly one less grievous than the others."

No happy choice. . What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

 

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