Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Think I'll have to read all of Wyrd Sisters. I'd forgotten how thoughtful TP was - this is his kingdom of Lancre:

And maybe like Winterfell, Lancre lost its ruler to a usurper, and 'woke up' as a consequence. Woke up angry. This is what Granny thinks it wants:

That is where TP goes cute, and GRRM probably goes sci-fi with a symbiosis between the castle and its family (or monstrous parasitic hive mind or something). Sansa goes to to the Eyrie and feels alienated, rejected even - she's the right sort of person, but in the wrong place. Maybe the pain of this rejection makes it easier to reconnect with Winterfell.

I don't know whether GRRM has read Pratchett but it pretty well summarises what's going on, not just with Winterfell but with the wider kingdom and with the cycle of summer and winter and their respective kings - and the disruption caused by the dragons, who really are alien to that balance, and perhaps even alien to the world.

[Tucu]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't know whether GRRM has read Pratchett but it pretty well summarises what's going on, not just with Winterfell but with the wider kingdom and with the cycle of summer and winter and their respective kings - and the disruption caused by the dragons, who really are alien to that balance, and perhaps even alien to the world.

Found this quote that seems relevant. When Cat and Mya are at Snow:

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There was no ice either, and she was grateful for that as well. “My mother says that hundreds of years ago, this was where the snow began,” Mya told her. “It was always white above here, and the ice never melted.” She shrugged. “I can’t remember ever seeing snow this far down the mountain, but maybe it was that way once, in the olden times.”

When Alayne comes down from the Eiyre, the snow covers all the way to the Gates of the Moon:

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Half the night was gone before they sighted the lights of the Gates of the Moon through the falling snow. The last part of their journey was the most peaceful. The snow fell steadily, cloaking all the world in white.

Compare these with Ser Arlan's quote in the Hedge Knight:

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The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler

Note that this was before Maekar's and Robert's long summers.

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

Found this quote that seems relevant. When Cat and Mya are at Snow:

When Alayne comes down from the Eiyre, the snow covers all the way to the Gates of the Moon:

Compare these with Ser Arlan's quote in the Hedge Knight:

Note that this was before Maekar's and Robert's long summers.

So interesting, thanks.

But now I'm reminded of the sword Ice, which I understand less than ever. I like to think Ice was gifted to Winterfell by Aegon I, as a reward for loyalty. Even if not, we have a 'hot' sword, a spell-forged sword from the land of fire going to the north - more or less coinciding with the dragons - and winter is held back.

But they call it Ice??? The last time there was a weapon called Ice the Starks were Kings of Winter, and I bet it was cold.

And really the Starks don't get on well with ice. Bran sees spears of it. Sansa and Cat fear slipping on it. In KL Ned is dancing on a thin sheet of it, and metaphorically it drops him in the drink.  Odd.

 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So interesting, thanks.

But now I'm reminded of the sword Ice, which I understand less than ever. I like to think Ice was gifted to Winterfell by Aegon I, as a reward for loyalty. Even if not, we have a 'hot' sword, a spell-forged sword from the land of fire going to the north - more or less coinciding with the dragons - and winter is held back.

But they call it Ice??? The last time there was a weapon called Ice the Starks were Kings of Winter, and I bet it was cold.

And really the Starks don't get on well with ice. Bran sees spears of it. Sansa and Cat fear slipping on it. In KL Ned is dancing on a thin sheet of it, and metaphorically it drops him in the drink.  Odd.

 

A weapon is often named ironically. Recall Joffrey naming one “Widow’s Wail”, then there’s Red Rain, Lady Forlorn, and Oathbreaker, among others. Maybe Ice was named for what it can kill?

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So interesting, thanks.

But now I'm reminded of the sword Ice, which I understand less than ever. I like to think Ice was gifted to Winterfell by Aegon I, as a reward for loyalty. Even if not, we have a 'hot' sword, a spell-forged sword from the land of fire going to the north - more or less coinciding with the dragons - and winter is held back.

Interestingly, we're not given a history for Ice, other than the fact it was named for the original - and whether that was lost or just melted we don't know. The impression as I recall is that its merely the latest in a long line of family swords traditionally called by that name. I'm not so sure about Aegon. I can live with a tolerably vague "history", but Aegon is too recent to be a long time ago. If he had given the sword the fact would be remembered and recorded.

[Tucu]

We get some Valyrian Ice history in Blood&Fire:

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Their uprising proved short-lived. For every man of the Night’s Watch who joined their rebellion, ten remained true to their vows. Once joined by Lord Stark and his bannermen, the black brothers retook Rimegate and hanged the oathbreakers, save for Ser Olyver himself, who was beheaded by Lord Stark with his celebrated blade Ice. When word reached Sable Hall, the rebels there fled beyond the Wall in hopes of making common cause with the wildlings. Lord Walton pursued them, but two days north in the snows of the haunted forest, he and his men were set upon by giants. It was written afterward that Walton Stark slew two of them before he was dragged from his saddle and torn apart. His surviving men carried him back to Castle Black in pieces.

So in 50 AC the sword was already famous and Walton Stark took it with him when he went to war.

Cregan Stark also took it with him to KL as he used it in during the Hour of the Wolf (131 AC)

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A weapon is often named ironically. Recall Joffrey naming one “Widow’s Wail”, then there’s Red Rain, Lady Forlorn, and Oathbreaker, among others. Maybe Ice was named for what it can kill?

Love the names of those VS swords! Most of them have a twist, like you say, so Ice too I suppose. But then didn't Sam say something about dragonsteel mentioned in the archives? So someone has tried it.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Interestingly, we're not given a history for Ice, other than the fact it was named for the original - and whether that was lost or just melted we don't know. The impression as I recall is that its merely the latest in a long line of family swords traditionally called by that name. I'm not so sure about Aegon. I can live with a tolerably vague "history", but Aegon is too recent to be a long time ago. If he had given the sword the fact would be remembered and recorded.

Have to agree Aegon is a long shot (but I still hope!) - Cat introduces Ice and she really should have recalled Aegon's gift - it would be the most memorable thing about it.

The timing is roughly speaking ok, though not as near as I hoped - Ice was forged four hundred years ago in Valyria, and Aegon's Conquest was three hundred years ago (I thought it was four). If Ice didn't arrive with Aegon, then it came to the Starks within a hundred years before and less than fifty after (thanks @Tucu.)

[Tucu]

I did a search in Fire and Blood and snow is almost missing outside the North and the Mountains of the Moon. From Aegon's conquest until the end of Aegon III's regency in 136 AC snow is mentioned only twice

In the winter of 59-60 AC (the one with the Shivers):

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The old year ended and a new year began, but there were few celebrations anywhere in Westeros to mark the coming of the 60th year since Aegon’s Conquest. A year before great bonfires had been lit in public squares and men and women had danced around them, drinking and laughing, whilst bells rang in the new year. One year later the fires were consuming corpses, and the bells were tolling out the dead. The streets of King’s Landing were empty, especially by night, the alleyways were deep in snow, and icicles hung down from the rooftops, long as spears.

And on 133 during Aegon III's second wedding:

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King Aegon III Targaryen wed Lady Daenaera on the last day of the 133rd year since Aegon’s Conquest. The crowds that lined the streets to cheer the royal couple were significantly smaller than those who had come out for Aegon and Jaehaera, for the Winter Fever had carried off almost a fifth of the population of King’s Landing, but those who did brave the day’s bitter winds and snow flurries were delighted with their new queen, charmed by her happy waves, flushed cheeks, and shy, sweet smiles. Ladies Baela and Rhaena, riding just behind the royal litter, were greeted with exuberant cheers as well. Only a few took note of the King’s Hand farther back, with “his face as grim as death.”

This is the four year winter (six according to the world book) that started during the last part of the Dance of Dragons; it also the one with the Winter Fever.

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The challenges he faced were daunting, for winter had descended upon Westeros and would endure for four long years, a winter as cold and bleak as any in the history of the Seven Kingdoms.

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And a terrible, hard winter—first declared by the Conclave in Oldtown in 130 AC, on Maiden's Day—had taken a firm grip on the realm, and would last for six cruel years.

 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Springwatch said:

... But then didn't Sam say something about dragonsteel mentioned in the archives? So someone has tried it.

 - Ice was forged four hundred years ago in Valyria, and Aegon's Conquest was three hundred years ago (I thought it was four). If Ice didn't arrive with Aegon, then it came to the Starks within a hundred years before and less than fifty after (thanks @Tucu.)

Yes, Sam finds dragonsteel mentioned [in the surprisingly few references] to the Others, and Jon suggests that its Valyrian steel.

We've discussed this before, possibly a long time ago, and came out with a general impression that Valyrian swords were traded fairly widely before the conquest. The reference to Ice [the current model] being forged in Valyria 400 years ago might not necessarily be literally true, because the making of Valyrian steel ended with the Doom [400 years ago and 100 years before the Conquest] and so Ice had to have been made at least 400 years ago.

[Springwatch]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We've discussed this before, possibly a long time ago, and came out with a general impression that Valyrian swords were traded fairly widely before the conquest.

I'll accept this. (Some time soon(ish) I'll start googling my way through the heresy threads, but right now I'm halfway through Wyrd Sisters and only two pages in to Trouserless Bob.)

Even so - Ice has been introduced to us in such a mysterious and dramatic way, I feel a mundane explanation would be a damp squib, not matching the sweep and scale of the narrative. If there's nothing to discover here, I doubt Cat would have brought up Ice's origin at all.

Quote

The reference to Ice [the current model] being forged in Valyria 400 years ago might not necessarily be literally true, because the making of Valyrian steel ended with the Doom [400 years ago and 100 years before the Conquest] and so Ice had to have been made at least 400 years ago.

The unreliable narrator. Possible but I hope not, because the 400 years makes the time frame very tight (relative to the usual history of a VS sword, to be sure!). For a sword as significant as Ice, there should be some remarkable event marking its entry to Winterfell - and in the 150 year time frame, there is such an event: Aegon's Conquest.

ETA

To add a bit of weight to the above argument:

It's not unlikely that the Targs had another VS sword. They come from the home of VS, and they are a powerful family (the dragons). It is likely that the Starks were rewarded for bending the knee, which saved Aegon enormous difficulty and expense. The dragons would hate the cold anyway.

[Black Crow]

22 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'll accept this. (Some time soon(ish) I'll start googling my way through the heresy threads, but right now I'm halfway through Wyrd Sisters and only two pages in to Trouserless Bob.)

Even so - Ice has been introduced to us in such a mysterious and dramatic way, I feel a mundane explanation would be a damp squib, not matching the sweep and scale of the narrative. If there's nothing to discover here, I doubt Cat would have brought up Ice's origin at all.

The unreliable narrator. Possible but I hope not, because the 400 years makes the time frame very tight (relative to the usual history of a VS sword, to be sure!). For a sword as significant as Ice, there should be some remarkable event marking its entry to Winterfell - and in the 150 year time frame, there is such an event: Aegon's Conquest.

ETA

To add a bit of weight to the above argument:

It's not unlikely that the Targs had another VS sword. They come from the home of VS, and they are a powerful family (the dragons). It is likely that the Starks were rewarded for bending the knee, which saved Aegon enormous difficulty and expense. The dragons would hate the cold anyway.

I have to disagree. There's nothing mysterious or dramatic about the way Ice is introduced to us. On the contrary, a minor plot point is the fact that the Lannisters resent that they alone of the great houses don't possess a Valyrian sword - having carelessly lost the one they did have. Hence Lord Tywin's eagerness to seize Ice and have it remade as two for his son and grandson.

Ownership is a simple matter of fact with no backstory and I would argue that if Catelyn's mention of its being 400 years old has any significance it is to establish Stark ownership before Aegon tooled up 300 years ago. 

[Tucu]

Heartsbane has been in the possession of House Tarly for nearly 500 years. Brightroar was bought in the century before the Doom and lost shortly after.

[Tucu]

Another Summer King: Jaehaerys I

From F&B:

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With fewer men marching off to war, more remained to work the land. Grain prices fell steadily throughout his reign, as more acres came under the plough. Fish became notably cheaper, even for common men, as the fishing villages along the coasts grew more prosperous and more boats put to sea. New orchards were planted everywhere from the Reach to the Neck. Lamb and mutton became more plentiful and wool finer as shepherds increased the size of their flocks. Trade increased tenfold, despite the vicissitudes of wind, weather, and wars and the disruptions they caused from time to time. The crafts flourished as well; farriers and blacksmiths, stonemasons, carpenters, millers, tanners, weavers, felters, dyers, brewers, vintners, goldsmiths and silversmiths, bakers, butchers, and cheesemakers all enjoyed a prosperity hitherto unknown west of the narrow sea.

There were, to be sure, good years and bad years, but it was rightly said that under Jaehaerys and his queen the good years were twice as good as the bad years were bad. Storms there were, and ill winds, and bitter winters, but when men look back today upon the Conciliator’s reign it is easy to mistake it for one long green and gentle summer.

In 58 AC Jaehaerys and Alysanne went to the North during summer. Alysanne extorted the New Gift from Alaric Stark, tried to cross The Wall with her dragon, convinced the LC to abandon the Nightfort and later that year convinced the king to outlaw the first night.

Then in 59-60 AC Jaehaerys got his only really bad winter (that we know of). The Shivers took his secondborn (oldest living child by then)

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There's nothing mysterious or dramatic about the way Ice is introduced to us. On the contrary, a minor plot point is the fact that the Lannisters resent that they alone of the great houses don't possess a Valyrian sword

We're twice told it was forged with spells. It's an extraordinary object - a huge, dark, super-sharp sword from a distant land, and it's paraded under the reader's nose - twice - in the early chapters. Including a little history lesson from Cat, with the mystery of original Ice as a bonus. That's all I want to say on the subject, except -

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Brightroar was bought in the century before the Doom and lost shortly after.

Brightroar appears to be named after an original, ancient Brightroar. Good grief, another one?

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

We're twice told it was forged with spells. It's an extraordinary object - a huge, dark, super-sharp sword from a distant land, and it's paraded under the reader's nose - twice - in the early chapters. Including a little history lesson from Cat, with the mystery of original Ice as a bonus. That's all I want to say on the subject, except -

Brightroar appears to be named after an original, ancient Brightroar. Good grief, another one?

Exactly, there's nothing unique about Ice, or the fact that there was magic involved in its forging; it's Valyrian steel and most of the great houses have a similar family one and have had one for centuries, or at least possessed it before Aegon did his veni vidi vici thing

[Springwatch]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly, there's nothing unique about Ice, or the fact that there was magic involved in its forging; it's Valyrian steel and most of the great houses have a similar family one and have had one for centuries, or at least possessed it before Aegon did his veni vidi vici thing

It's unique at the start of the books.

Also, Brightroar cost a king's ransom. The Starks can't pay the gold price like the Lannisters - the north is relatively poor. Therefore there was some event involved - likely true for other houses too - and that event is recent enough to be remembered as Brightroar's story is remembered. Ice's story is being held back. imho 

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's unique at the start of the books.

Also, Brightroar cost a king's ransom. The Starks can't pay the gold price like the Lannisters - the north is relatively poor. Therefore there was some event involved - likely true for other houses too - and that event is recent enough to be remembered as Brightroar's story is remembered. Ice's story is being held back. imho 

I quite agree that the original Ice's story is being suppressed for some significant reason and I don't believe because its made of actual ice. I'm wondering if the Valyrian blades were the "help" that the Children gave to the Last Hero and the first Night's Watch when they rode out to bring the dawn? But then again, how would the Children get their hands on that many blades? There's got to be some ancient story about these swords and somebody knowledgeable will have to tell the story. Maybe Sam will learn it at the Citadel?

[alienarea]

I wonder whether the original Ice became Dawn?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I quite agree that the original Ice's story is being suppressed for some significant reason and I don't believe because its made of actual ice. I'm wondering if the Valyrian blades were the "help" that the Children gave to the Last Hero and the first Night's Watch when they rode out to bring the dawn? But then again, how would the Children get their hands on that many blades? There's got to be some ancient story about these swords and somebody knowledgeable will have to tell the story. Maybe Sam will learn it at the Citadel?

"Suppressed" is perhaps too strong a word, but its certainly significant that Sam finds mention of dragonsteel being used to fight the Others a long long time ago.

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

"Suppressed" is perhaps too strong a word, but its certainly significant that Sam finds mention of dragonsteel being used to fight the Others a long long time ago.

Suppressed by the author not by the characters. Maybe "reserved" is a better word?