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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Do tell

As the title "A Song of Ice and Fire" implies, it's all about dualism.

Fire - Ice

Man - Woman

and so on.

We have the man in flames vs wolf.

"Winter has no king".

A few post above I linked the White Walkers to "Eaters of the Dead" by Michael Crichton, which is a version of the Beowulf myth.

Behind the monster Grendel is the monster's mother who mortally wounds the hero.

Quaithe appears after the birth of the dragons. Her directions to Daenerys are confusing (to keep her away from Westeros?)

She like an opposite of Melisandre, i.e. "Team Ice".

What's behind her mask? A spider's mouth?

 

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17 hours ago, alienarea said:

She like an opposite of Melisandre, i.e. "Team Ice".

Deep down I want Quaithe to be fire.... Still, theoretically it should be easy to prove - if she communicates to Dany through dreams, she's Other; if waking visions, she's fire. If I remember right though, it's not easy to tell. And all sorts of people get dreams, but very few visions.

Second point - are both Melisandre and Quaithe shadowbinders do you think? I suppose they have to be, though it doesn't express the duality of ice and fire magic - and I too feel the duality is key (other, even bigger things may be out there, but the ice and fire conflict will decide the day).

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On 9/25/2021 at 9:32 AM, Springwatch said:

Deep down I want Quaithe to be fire.... Still, theoretically it should be easy to prove - if she communicates to Dany through dreams, she's Other; if waking visions, she's fire. If I remember right though, it's not easy to tell. And all sorts of people get dreams, but very few visions.

Second point - are both Melisandre and Quaithe shadowbinders do you think? I suppose they have to be, though it doesn't express the duality of ice and fire magic - and I too feel the duality is key (other, even bigger things may be out there, but the ice and fire conflict will decide the day).

Quaithe has a red laquered mask. The color fits for fire but also the old gods. I cannot make a solid proof, but she is very similar to the woodswitch Jon meets when the wildlings cross the wall.

 

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46 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Quaithe has a red laquered mask. The color fits for fire but also the old gods. I cannot make a solid proof, but she is very similar to the woodswitch Jon meets when the wildlings cross the wall.

 

GRRM likes his layers. Perhaps there's too much focus on the Red lot.

Ice and Fire need to be in balance, and while it's vitally necessary that the Red lot and the Dragons are prevented from bringing about an endless Summer, we don't at the same time need to see the destruction of Fire.

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On 9/24/2021 at 11:22 AM, Tucu said:

One of those "Wow, I never noticed that" moments: Sam prayed to the demons of snow for the gift of mercy shortly before his encounter with Ser Puddles:

 

Be careful whom you might call with your prayer:

Quote

 

He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort.

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers.

“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?”

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood.

 

@Unchained’s essay “Answered Prayers” elaborates.

 

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It's the glass candles...I suspect Quaithe is using one to communicate to Daenerys. The glass candles seem to be "team fire" and perhaps the opposite side of the coin from weirwoods. Just as there isn't just one greenseer - backup just a moment. Even though Bloodraven was called the last greenseer, it is known that the Children have multiple greenseers or at least they did. Isn't it implied that the side caves are filled with "sleeping" greenseers? Forgive me while I ramble on with my train of thoughts...Euron is the Crow's Eye, because he sees from above while Bloodraven sees from underneath the ground. Bloodraven was wedded to and uses the weirwoods while Euron drinks shade of the evening which may be the key to using the glass candles. Daenerys associates Quaithe with whispering stars from above - her mask appeared made of starlight - which suggests that she is using a glass candle to communicate too. Just a thought...if Euron is Bloodraven's parallel perhaps Quaithe is Bran's? Quaithe came to Daenerys in her dreams while Bran entered Jon's. 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Be careful whom you might call with your prayer:

@Unchained’s essay “Answered Prayers” elaborates.

 

Thanks for the link.

BTW, before Will prays, Waymar challenges the Gods:

Quote

Gods!” he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.

Waymar stood there longsword in hand for all to see

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20 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Be careful whom you might call with your prayer:

@Unchained’s essay “Answered Prayers” elaborates.

 

I really enjoyed that essay. Rumplestiltskin was a favorite childhood story! I can easily see the parallels drawn between asking imps for wishes, getting your wish granted, and then suffering the consequence of giving up a prince. What I'm wondering about though is the Knight of the Laughing Tree example. This one is a bit different in that usually the person making the request is traditionally a female. The maid is supposed to be the one making the wish (or prayer) in exchange for the child. The crannogman prayed for a way to "win". Its my opinion that this story is actually an allegory for something larger than winning in a tourney. 

A tourney is play acting a war and the tourney in Meera's story is an allegory for Robert's Rebellion. A wish to win was made, the rebels won, but it was the maid Lyanna that died and not the child. The question is, will a prince escape the gods? Was the price sufficiently paid?

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Martin has said that his story is about the human heart in conflict.  So what is happening to Sansa's heart?  Caitlyn's heart has turned to stone.  Arya says that there is a hole where her heart should be.  Sansa is divesting herself of all notions of romantic love and it seems that her heart will turn to ice which is the personification of hate.

I don't think Catelyn's heart will be transformed or whether Arya will find her heart; but I do think we get some hint about Sansa's heart from Jojen and Meera:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

 

This exchange seems a bit like inside baseball to me.  Meera and Jojen seem to be in the know about something and I think it relates to Sansa and what will become of her heart.  But this is not their mission.

The heart cannot be healed with more hate,  It can only be healed by love.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

This exchange seems a bit like inside baseball to me.  Meera and Jojen seem to be in the know about something and I think it relates to Sansa and what will become of her heart.  But this is not their mission.

The heart cannot be healed with more hate,  It can only be healed by love.

May I ask why Sansa in particular? Is it the "kissed by fire"+snow lady aspect?

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

May I ask why Sansa in particular? Is it the "kissed by fire"+snow lady aspect?

No.  I think the joining of ice and fire or making the land "one";  North to South will culminate in the marriage of the fire and ice bloodlines.  From the beginning, readers thought this would Jon and Danaerys or Rhaegar and Lyanna; but I think it will be Sansa and Aegon.  It would be their marriage that will make the land one.  Sansa's heart of ice will have to burn, metaphorically speaking.

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23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No.  I think the joining of ice and fire or making the land "one";  North to South will culminate in the marriage of the fire and ice bloodlines.  From the beginning, readers thought this would Jon and Danaerys or Rhaegar and Lyanna; but I think it will be Sansa and Aegon.  It would be their marriage that will make the land one.  Sansa's heart of ice will have to burn, metaphorically speaking.

I thought a marriage to Harry was the goal? Young Griff has a lot to prove before Littlefinger would risk his prize.

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While ultimately this is certainly a conflict which can be resolved by marriage, getting there is likely to be a lot more complicated than pairing off the preferred candidates.

Mention was made above of "team Fire", but so far as I can see if there is a "team Fire", [and a "team Ice" for that matter], its pretty dysfunctional. Quaithe for example may well be aligned with Fire, but if so she appears to have a very different agenda from the total victory being promoted by Our Mel. While I can see her joining Master Benero in hailing the Dragon Queen I don't see a royal wedding with the cold lad up north appearing on her social calendar any time soon. Euron on the other hand , although looking to total victory is looking to the victory of Euron rather than the bringing of an endless summer.

I'm also mindful of GRRM's comment about a bittersweet ending, which doesn't  sound like a marriage between two individuals as a prelude to living happily ever after. If a marriage is called for I'm more inclined to look for a symbolic or metaphorical one more along the lines of Catholic Nuns becoming brides of Christ or the City of Venice marrying the Sea. There is of course a sacrifice implicit in both. 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I thought a marriage to Harry was the goal? Young Griff has a lot to prove before Littlefinger would risk his prize.

In the short term, yes.  One step in the consolidation of the North for Sansa.  An Aegon/Sansa marriage is something I see as a part of the bittersweet ending, brokered by Tyrion.  I think Littlefinger will be out of the picture by then.  

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30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm also mindful of GRRM's comment about a bittersweet ending, which doesn't  sound like a marriage between two individuals as a prelude to living happily ever after.

If Sansa's icy heart can burn, I can see her finally getting her dragonfly prince.

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I thought a marriage to Harry was the goal? Young Griff has a lot to prove before Littlefinger would risk his prize.

Yea, I’m a bit skeptical that there is going to be some type of alliance between the pet projects of Varys and Littlefinger.  There seems to be very little love between the two.  

I’m getting more and more comfortable with the idea that Varys is trying to put his pet project, Young Griff, on the Iron Throne while Littlefinger is attempting to carve out his own kingdom of the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale and put his beloved Sansa in as it’s sovereign.  

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

I refer of course to the schemes of Littlefinger Rugen/Varys and everybody else jockeying for an earthly power:commie:

Well after all this work they've done to become the power behind the throne, they may find out that their kingdom is nothing but snow and ashes.  

The question is who at that point will take the initiative to pick up the pieces?

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