Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[asongofheresy]

46 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'd be more interested in how this information would help convince you that Ned is Jon's father rather than Lyanna being his mother? If you have your thoughts posted elsewhere, just provide another link. We are wrapping up the Sansa thread and the discussion seems to be moving towards the magical fog. I do hope BC keeps that (or time loops) as the topic of 239.

Ah, I think it was seeing all of the information about Snowgate, the First Night practice of Northern Houses, and spossed child sacrifices, made me think of Ned questioning why God's gave men lust if bastards are frowned upon, if North, and Starks like Night's King did sacrifice their bastards like Craster sacrifice his sons, Ned raising Jon, and claiming he doesn't kill children, becomes more significant in my eyes, though maybe that's only me who had that web of thoughts. 

I am also thinking if it possible for Ned to have multiple bastards he didn't claim like Jon, but that's a recent hunch. 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Ah, I think it was seeing all of the information about Snowgate, the First Night practice of Northern Houses, and spossed child sacrifices, made me think of Ned questioning why God's gave men lust if bastards are frowned upon, if North, and Starks like Night's King did sacrifice their bastards like Craster sacrifice his sons, Ned raising Jon, and claiming he doesn't kill children, becomes more significant in my eyes, though maybe that's only me who had that web of thoughts. 

I am also thinking if it possible for Ned to have multiple bastards he didn't claim like Jon, but that's a recent hunch. 

 

I think Ned was an honorable man. Once he was married he probably stayed true. But then again one of the running themes of this series is how noblemen and knights who are supposed to be shining examples of honor are guilty of unspeakable acts, while perceived dishonorable men and known thieves and other assorted criminals are capable of merciful and honorable deeds.

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Spirts can go into the fog/mist and then be transported by the wind? Here is Varamyr being carried by the wind:

 

This reminds me that after the first 2 wights  Jaffer (?) and the other one (sorry forget the name) were put into the storage cells, Jon noted a ‘skirling’ wind blowing over the Wall.  It was later that night the now reanimated wights attacked. Did the skirling wind bring that power over the Wall?

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Fogs and mists at Ramsey's wedding:

 

Ohhh, I had forgotten that!   Great catch!  The fog certainly creeped out Theon, and didn’t he hear his name (spoken by Bran) at that time, or was that before?  

Anyway, there has been discussion that the veil between worlds was very thin for that wedding due to the mists. 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

I am glad you point out the fog because the bridge is indeed misleading, but still did the shift through time complete a cycle or not? 

Plus an interesting tidbit for a different subject, when Ned and Robert talks in AGOT, Robert guesses Merryl and Aleena as names of Jon's mother, Merryl means Star of the Sea, and Aleena is a form of Helen, and one of its variant is Lyna, was Robert/GRRM hinting at Ashara and Lyanna as possible mothers of Jon? 

It is maybe a stretch too far, but let's take a look at the dead direwolf mother.

We only have the pups, the dead mother, no father. 

The mother direwolf is dead. There are initially five cubs found, with closed eyes, later a sixth, with open eyes, that moved away 

=> this cub is older => Jon is the oldest

=> as Catelyn is not Jon' s mother, but the cubs are found together => they are related => Ned is Jon's father, too

=> Ghost belongs to the old gods. Like Jon. Because his mother is from a first men family => Ashara or Lyanna

Maybe Ned did not sacrifice his bastard to the old gods like he should have (a prince that was promised, kind of), so the White Walkers rose again to fetch him.

If so, the White Walkers might retreat when Jon dies?

Also: did Ned refuse to sacrifice Jon, because Lyanna is the mother and Ned became honorable after sleeping with his sister? "Promise me, Ned (... not to tell them ever)"

[Tucu]

40 minutes ago, LongRider said:

This reminds me that after the first 2 wights  Jaffer (?) and the other one (sorry forget the name) were put into the storage cells, Jon noted a ‘skirling’ wind blowing over the Wall.  It was later that night the now reanimated wights attacked. Did the skirling wind bring that power over the Wall?

IIRC we discussed that chapter in the Ballad of Trouserless Bob thread. A lot of magic and weather events happened there:

-They found the dormant wights

-The Wall was still weeping and it was still a "spirit summer" marking the end of the season

-The news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment reached The Wall.

-Jon gets the news, the weather changes and the skirling wind hits The Wall. Jon goes beserk on Thorne.

-Jon room gets darker and colder; later Jon awakes up trembling violently from the cold around the time the wights activate and attack

 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, LongRider said:

This reminds me that after the first 2 wights  Jaffer (?) and the other one (sorry forget the name) were put into the storage cells, Jon noted a ‘skirling’ wind blowing over the Wall.  It was later that night the now reanimated wights attacked. Did the skirling wind bring that power over the Wall?

Ohhh, I had forgotten that!   Great catch!  The fog certainly creeped out Theon, and didn’t he hear his name (spoken by Bran) at that time, or was that before?  

Anyway, there has been discussion that the veil between worlds was very thin for that wedding due to the mists. 

But the Wall is supposed to prevent magic from passing. Of course Othor and Jafer were dragged through the Wall, but something obviously animated them on the south side.

We are told that bones remember, but "remembering" is a far cry from what Othor and Jafer did. Both were Rangers from Benjen's party, and as far as we know they didn't have a grudge against Lord Commander Jorah Mormont, Jon, or even with each other. I think Jon was only attacked, because he got in the way. Let's also not forget that Jafer appeared to have been killed by Othor's axe.

As wights, Othor and Jafer acted with purpose in trying to kill, not just men in the Watch, but its Lord Commander. I don't want to get sidetracked from my point, but I do think its important that killing Jorah Mormont paved the way for Jon to become Lord Commander.

Circling back to my point - someone wanted the wights dragged through the Wall so that they could be animated and used for a purpose. I think many people will agree that it wasn't Othor and Jafer that attacked, so it must have been another entity, and the cold winds skirling over the Wall didn't carry that entity. The Wall prevents passage of magical creatures, but it does not stop people from climbing over...people who would know how to work magic.

The high skirling winds didn't conceal what was happening like the fog in the Sorrows, but the identity of who was working the magic was. One of my older thoughts is that a wilding climbed over the Wall to work the magic, but a second possibility is that it was Bloodraven. He looked for Bran, because a Brandon Stark was needed to be a greenseer, but he also may have needed a Stark bastard to be Lord Commander.

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, Tucu said:

IIRC we discussed that chapter in the Ballad of Trouserless Bob thread. A lot of magic and weather events happened there:

-They found the dormant wights

-The Wall was still weeping and it was still a "spirit summer" marking the end of the season

-The news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment reached The Wall.

-Jon gets the news, the weather changes and the skirling wind hits The Wall. Jon and goes beserk on Thorne.

-Jon room gets darker and colder; later Jon awakes up trembling violently from the cold around the time the wights activate and attack

 

Upthread I asserted that Tyrion and friends were floating through the Sorrows right at the time that the seasons were allowed to move forward. You seem to have found a second example. The Wall was weeping as summer was giving up the ghost, the summer king died, and the change of seasons caused the skirling wind which were like eddies in a river of time. Tyrion's group was attacked when the season changed and so was Jon's group.  These two events must have occurred at the same time. 

I wonder if we can find more examples?

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I think Ned was an honorable man. Once he was married he probably stayed true. But then again one of the running themes of this series is how noblemen and knights who are supposed to be shining examples of honor are guilty of unspeakable acts, while perceived dishonorable men and known thieves and other assorted criminals are capable of merciful and honorable deeds.

I am speculating about multiple bastards because we have rumors of Ashara having a stillborn daughter, the Fisherman's Daughter rumor that happens at the start of Rebellion, and Wylla if Ned is telling the truth about fathering a bastard with her after marrying Catelyn. But I don't think he had a bastard after Catelyn and Robb arrived at Winterfell. 

[asongofheresy]

40 minutes ago, alienarea said:

It is maybe a stretch too far, but let's take a look at the dead direwolf mother.

We only have the pups, the dead mother, no father. 

The mother direwolf is dead. There are initially five cubs found, with closed eyes, later a sixth, with open eyes, that moved away 

=> this cub is older => Jon is the oldest

=> as Catelyn is not Jon' s mother, but the cubs are found together => they are related => Ned is Jon's father, too

=> Ghost belongs to the old gods. Like Jon. Because his mother is from a first men family => Ashara or Lyanna

Maybe Ned did not sacrifice his bastard to the old gods like he should have (a prince that was promised, kind of), so the White Walkers rose again to fetch him.

If so, the White Walkers might retreat when Jon dies?

Also: did Ned refuse to sacrifice Jon, because Lyanna is the mother and Ned became honorable after sleeping with his sister? "Promise me, Ned (... not to tell them ever)"

Yes, the direwolf is telling that Jon is son of Ned, but him being older than Robb would muddy the waters, since during his talk with Robert he claim to dishonor Catelyn and himself by fathering Jon after their marriage, if Jon is older, is it possible he married the mother, and dishonored Catelyn by committing polygamy while Jon's mother was pregnant with his child? 

The child sacrifice angle is interesting too, I remember Lyanna and Roberts death bed scenes being compared, Robert wanted bastard to be eaten while the girl will be protected, did Lyanna wanted bastard, Jon, to be sacrificed while a girl was promised to be saved? 

[Melifeather]

Just now, asongofheresy said:

I am speculating about multiple bastards because we have rumors of Ashara having a stillborn daughter, the Fisherman's Daughter rumor that happens at the start of Rebellion, and Wylla if Ned is telling the truth about fathering a bastard with her after marrying Catelyn. But I don't think he had a bastard after Catelyn and Robb arrived at Winterfell. 

I don't believe Ashara had a stillborn daughter. It was just a cover story to explain a pretend suicide, because people will want to know reasons, right?

People must have known Ashara was pregnant, because Barristan noted that she had been "dishonored" and had "turned to Stark", and then the stillborn daughter was offered for one of the reasons why she jumped from the tower. Learning of a dead brother wouldn't have been enough. It would have raised more questions than it answered, but losing a child...

If Ashara is Wylla, she needs a backstory to cover her death so people stop looking for her. 

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I don't believe Ashara had a stillborn daughter. It was just a cover story to explain a pretend suicide, because people will want to know reasons, right?

People must have known Ashara was pregnant, because Barristan noted that she had been "dishonored" and had "turned to Stark", and then the stillborn daughter was offered for one of the reasons why she jumped from the tower. Learning of a dead brother wouldn't have been enough. It would have raised more questions than it answered, but losing a child...

If Ashara is Wylla, she needs a backstory to cover her death so people stop looking for her. 

That's a possibly too, I lean towards the girl being alive as Allyria Dayne supposed sister of Ashara. 

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Yes, the direwolf is telling that Jon is son of Ned, but him being older than Robb would muddy the waters, since during his talk with Robert he claim to dishonor Catelyn and himself by fathering Jon after their marriage, if Jon is older, is it possible he married the mother, and dishonored Catelyn by committing polygamy while Jon's mother was pregnant with his child? 

The child sacrifice angle is interesting too, I remember Lyanna and Roberts death bed scenes being compared, Robert wanted bastard to be eaten while the girl will be protected, did Lyanna wanted bastard, Jon, to be sacrificed while a girl was promised to be saved? 

The dishonor that bothered Ned so much was that he didn't marry the girl that he got pregnant. Getting Ashara pregnant and then not marrying her was the dishonorable act. Lying to his wife about Jon's mother was also dishonorable and very nearly an oath-breaking offense. Ned clings to the promises he made to his sister Lyanna, because it's the only way he can live with his decisions.

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

The dishonor that bothered Ned so much was that he didn't marry the girl that he got pregnant. Getting Ashara pregnant and then not marrying her was the dishonorable act. Lying to his wife about Jon's mother was also dishonorable and very nearly an oath-breaking offense. Ned clings to the promises he made to his sister Lyanna, because it's the only way he can live with his decisions.

It is true he clings to his promise to Lyanna, but we shouldn't forget Ned married Catelyn at a Sept, according to customs of the Seven, is it possible for him to take Ashara as wife according to Old Gods and a marriage in front of a heart tree, I bet Wolf's Den has a tree if Lord Eddard and the Fisherman's Daughter had to stay there at the start of Rebellion. 

[Melifeather]

Just now, asongofheresy said:

It is true he clings to his promise to Lyanna, but we shouldn't forget Ned married Catelyn at a Sept, according to customs of the Seven, is it possible for him to take Ashara as wife according to Old Gods and a marriage in front of a heart tree, I bet Wolf's Den has a tree if Lord Eddard and the Fisherman's Daughter had to stay there at the start of Rebellion. 

The tale of the fisherman's daughter have Ned and presumably Wylla parting ways, because he gave her a sack of coins.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Davos I

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

 

I'd like to believe that Ned only pretended to leave "Wylla" so that anyone that saw them would believe they parted ways. They could have easily met up again away from prying eyes so that he could secretly take Ashara to Winterfell. This would make Jon's birth as being the same as the Bastard O'Winterfell tale where the babe was born in the crypts. The Lord Stark thought his daughter was dead until she showed up with Bael's bastard nearly a year after she had gone missing. If Jon's mother isn't actually dead, then it could be said that he had been born with the dead - just like his wolf pup Ghost. It's a twisted joke based on a grain of truth sort of like Lord Plumm's "six-foot cock". The joke is how could he have fathered his child if he was dead?

Ned crossed the Bite in order to go home and call his banners. He would have been too busy to plan a wedding if he originally planned on marrying Ashara. Maybe he told her they'd marry later? I'm just spitballing here. Then the need for soldiers to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept put an end to marrying for love. Ned needed a political marriage to gain an ally, so he broke his promise to Ashara and married Catelyn.

As a jilted bride, Ashara would have had bleak prospects much like Lollys Stokeworth. Rather than be subjected to an undesirable match, Ashara would rather fake a suicide and assume a new identity - one that she had already used when she traveled across the Bite with Ned.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Upthread I asserted that Tyrion and friends were floating through the Sorrows right at the time that the seasons were allowed to move forward. You seem to have found a second example. The Wall was weeping as summer was giving up the ghost, the summer king died, and the change of seasons caused the skirling wind which were like eddies in a river of time. Tyrion's group was attacked when the season changed and so was Jon's group.  These two events must have occurred at the same time. 

I wonder if we can find more examples?

I have looked before for the first events of heavy snows in different areas:

-At the battle of the Fist, Sam tells us of the first heavy snows they encounter (remember it was still raining during their first arrival at Craster's)

-Jon also faces the first heavy snows when he is marching towards the Fist with the wildlings

-During the Prince of Winterfell there was still no snow, the (f)Arya wedding happened in the mist and the springs were still steaming. Between the wedding and the events in The Turncloak the snows started and from there the blizzard keeps blowing for at least 40 days (following Asha's account).

-Jamie has his cold dream about his mother when the snows arrive to the Riverlands

-In the ADWD epilogue Winter is officially declared and KL is in a blizzard

This is not snow related, but in Dany's last chapter in ADWD the season is changing. It is cold, the Dothraki sea is dying and she has her fire&blood transformation.

 

[Tucu]

I forgot one that might turn out to be the most significant one. During ADWD the snows at The Wall have been on and off but in the last chapter it is snowing heavily with winds from the south, Jon is stabbed and the last thing he feels is the cold. I would bet that this marks the start of winter at The Wall

[Melifeather]

47 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I forgot one that might turn out to be the most significant one. During ADWD the snows at The Wall have been on and off but in the last chapter it is snowing heavily with winds from the south, Jon is stabbed and the last thing he feels is the cold. I would bet that this marks the start of winter at The Wall

Jon had to die, because winter has no king? Maybe it has a queen? The old lords of Winterfell claimed to be Kings of Winter. Kind of hypocritical isn't it if winter has no king?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Jon had to die, because winter has no king? Maybe it has a queen? The old lords of Winterfell claimed to be Kings of Winter. Kind of hypocritical isn't it if winter has no king?

I am leaning towards this: Mormont's murder, Jon letting the wildlings through, Jon breaking his bows and his assassination are weakening the magic wards of The Wall. As the wards weaken the old powers might be getting stronger south of The Wall (this includes the cold winds and the Old Gods)

In Bran I ADWD we are told twice that the NW must remain true:

Quote

Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy, and dream sweet dreams. There are no monsters here. The ranger wore the black of the Night's Watch, but what if he was not a man at all? What if he was some monster, taking them to the other monsters to be devoured?

Quote

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

The Wall still stands, but are the NW still true after 2 LC assassinations and an oathbreaker LC?

Back to the winter king. The magnar of the Thenns is more god than lord:

Quote

earless Styr, Magnar of Thenn, whose own people thought him more god than lord

So for the Magnar of Winter should we be looking for a winter deity more than a winter king? how much knowledge got lost in translation from the old tongue?

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

~snip ~ 

-Jon room gets darker and colder; later Jon awakes up trembling violently from the cold around the time the wights activate and attack

 

Ghost was also agitated and scratching at the door. 

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

But the Wall is supposed to prevent magic from passing. ~snip ~

I think many people will agree that it wasn't Othor and Jafer that attacked, so it must have been another entity, and the cold winds skirling over the Wall didn't carry that entity. The Wall prevents passage of magical creatures, but it does not stop people from climbing over...people who would know how to work magic.

I would argue the opposite; magic may not be able to pass through the Wall, but like the wildings who can pass over, perhaps skirling winds can carry magic and thus be able to carry magic over the Wall. 
The wind carries and makes many different sounds, and the blizzard at Winterfell, 40 days of snow and wind?  What entity is driving those forces?  
I don’t give the credit to BR, he gets to much credit for things as it is. 
 

 

[Tucu]

Regarding the Winterfell blizzard...does this count as the beginning of the Long Night?. For Asha and company the sun, the moon and the stars became the stuff of dreams and prayers.. In the King's prize we get this:

Quote

Even the nightfire shrank and grew feeble, to the dismay of the queen's men. "Lord of Light, preserve us from this evil," they prayed, led by the deep voice of Ser Godry the Giantslayer. "Show us your bright sun again, still these winds, and melt these snows, that we may reach your foes and smite them. The night is dark and cold and full of terrors, but yours is the power and glory and the light. R'hllor, fill us with your fire."

Quote

One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. Three hundred miles as the raven flies. Fifteen days. The fifteenth day of the march came and went, and they had crossed less than half the distance. A trail of broken wayns and frozen corpses stretched back behind them, buried beneath the blowing snow. The sun and moon and stars had been gone so long that Asha was starting to wonder whether she had dreamed them.

And in The Sacrifice this:

Quote

They had been three days from Winterfell for nineteen days. One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. Three hundred miles as the raven flies. But none of them were ravens, and the storm was unrelenting. Each morning Asha awoke hoping she might see the sun, only to face another day of snow. The storm had buried every hut and hovel beneath a mound of dirty snow, and the drifts would soon be deep enough to engulf the longhall too.

Quote

Ser Godry raised his head toward the darkening sky. "We thank you for the sun that warms us and pray that you will return it to us, Oh lord, that it might light our path to your enemies." Snowflakes melted on his face. "We thank you for the stars that watch over us by night, and pray that you will rip away this veil that hides them, so we might glory in their sight once more."

Quote

That did not shock her. Almost all of their big destriers had failed, including Massey's own. Most of their palfreys were gone as well. Even the garrons of the northmen were faltering for want of fodder. But what did they need horses for? Stannis was no longer marching anywhere. The sun and moon and stars had been gone so long that Asha was starting to wonder whether she had dreamed them. "I will eat."

Notice Asha's repetition (loop?)