Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[alienarea]

22 hours ago, Tucu said:

Lyanna was "crowned" during the false spring. Does this make her a Winter queen or a Spring queen?

Or a false queen?

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, alienarea said:

Or a false queen?

False is possible, all things are possible and even likely, but the deeper we go into this the more likely it seems that her killing had nothing to do with a doomed love story.

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, alienarea said:

Or a false queen?

Her season was too short. Remember it was a False Spring before winter returned with a fury. If Bran is a summer child, having been born and only knowing summer, when did that summer begin and how long was the winter season that ended that False Spring? Lyanna had to die, because I'm thinking that winter must have been short.

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Her season was too short. Remember it was a False Spring before winter returned with a fury. If Bran is a summer child, having been born and only knowing summer, when did that summer begin and how long was the winter season that ended that False Spring? Lyanna had to die, because I'm thinking that winter must have been short.

Dany was born in Summer (~284). So there must have been a Spring in the middle of the rebellion (at some point in 282-284)

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She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart

Bob's Summer lasted ~10 years:

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This one came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory

 

[Melifeather]

Well, Daenerys is older than ten, so the seasons must have changed quite quickly there for a bit.

[Melifeather]

Consequently, if the seasons have anything to do with this, Sansa should be growing in power in direct relationship to winter.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Dany was born in Summer (~284). So there must have been a Spring in the middle of the rebellion (at some point in 282-284)

Bob's Summer lasted ~10 years:

 

If Lyanna was crowned during the False Spring, her crowning may have brought winter back, but then her death coincided with an end to that winter. After which Robert's ascension to the throne brought Spring.

[Tucu]

The sequence seems to be:

280 is Winter->False Spring(281)->Winter is back(281)->a Spring->Summer around 284->an Autumn, a Winter and a Spring->Bob's Summer starting around 288

9 seasons in 8 years? Surely a disturbance in the force

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

If Lyanna was crowned during the False Spring, her crowning may have brought winter back, but then her death coincided with an end to that winter. After which Robert's ascension to the throne brought Spring.

Its worth emphasising that its the ascension of the Summer King rather than the demise of the Winter one which brings about the change. The False Spring might suggest that a new Summer King had arisen only to be cut down almost at once, before Trouserless Bob Baratheon the Horned Lord arose.

[Black Crow]

...the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory

This does rather underline Bob's true significance as Summer King

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth emphasising that its the ascension of the Summer King rather than the demise of the Winter one which brings about the change. The False Spring might suggest that a new Summer King had arisen only to be cut down almost at once, before Trouserless Bob Baratheon the Horned Lord arose.

I think we had two Summer kings. During the False Spring it seemed that Rhaegar was about to become a new Summer king, but the return to Winter put an end to that. Then the death of Lyanna signaled an end to the returned Winter and a new cycle of Spring came with the ascension of a new Summer king which was Robert Baratheon.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I think we had two Summer kings. During the False Spring it seemed that Rhaegar was about to become a new Summer king, but the return to Winter put an end to that. Then the death of Lyanna signaled an end to the returned Winter and a new cycle of Spring came with the ascension of a new Summer king which was Robert Baratheon.

I'm inclined to wonder at this point whether any significance may attach to the deaths of both Brandon and Lyanna

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm inclined to wonder at this point whether any significance may attach to the deaths of both Brandon and Lyanna

IMO the death of Brandon made way for Ned to have a son named Brandon. Ned's brother Brandon was the Brandon for the False Spring cycle.

(false) Spring: Rhaegar the ascending Summer King.

Lyanna takes off. Killing the Lord of Winterfell (Rickard) and his son Brandon brought about the return of Winter with a vengeance. Maybe this is the origin of there must be a Stark in Winterfell? It may be that if there is no Stark, then Winter returns? I also think its important to include Ashara in this grouping. She's the "other Lyanna". She may or may not be dead. Ned loved her, but he had to marry the Riverland daughter instead.

(new) Spring: Robert Baratheon the ascending Summer King.

Ned is the new Lord of Winterfell, he fathers two new "Lyannas" named Sansa and Arya, and a new Brandon.

This brings about a long, extended Summer.

Killing Robert brought about the end of Summer, but killing the Lord (Ned) and Bran's abandonment of Winterfell is what triggered the return of Winter with a vengeance. The two Lyannas take off as expected, but the Brandon escapes death by vacating the castle.

Winter is here.

Winterfell has a new Lord, but he ain't no Stark. The current Brandon is still alive albeit as a greenseer, and the two Lyannas went their separate ways. Sansa is also the Riverland daughter. The realm suspects that they are both alive, but no one can find them. So far it is they that has escaped capture. 

 

[Melifeather]

They also say, Winter has no king. Maybe that's because the Lord Stark of Winterfell is dead?

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

...the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory

This does rather underline Bob's true significance as Summer King

I just realised that the day they found Othor and Jafer is the same that the news about the death of Bob arrives at The Wall. Before Jon receives the news the weather was hot and The Wall was weeping a lot:

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The day was grey, damp, overcast, the sort of day that made you wish for rain. No wind stirred the wood; the air hung humid and heavy, and Jon’s clothes clung to his skin. It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking.

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

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Bowen Marsh was waiting at the first gate as they led their garrons through the icy tunnel. The Lord Steward was red-faced and agitated. “My lord,” he blurted at Mormont as he swung open the iron bars, “there’s been a bird, you must come at once.”

<...>

he found Pyp in the common hall. “What’s happened?” he asked. Pyp lowered his voice. “The king’s dead.”

<...>

“Lord Eddard has been imprisoned. He is charged with treason. It is said he plotted with Robert’s brothers to deny the throne to Prince Joffrey.”

<...>

Mormont shook his head. “This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king…there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones…”

By the time he exits the weather has changed:

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The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he’d gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

That night the wights attack and in the next chapter Mormont tells this to Jon before giving him Longclaw:

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“It would seem there were only the two of…of those creatures, whatever they were, I will not call them men. And thank the gods for that. Any more and…well, that doesn’t bear thinking of. There will be more, though. I can feel it in these old bones of mine, and Maester Aemon agrees. The cold winds are rising. Summer is at an end, and a winter is coming such as this world has never seen.”

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

By the time he exits the weather has changed:

You mean, by the time the Lord Ned Stark of Winterfell is executed?

[Tucu]

57 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You mean, by the time the Lord Ned Stark of Winterfell is executed?

I meant when he exits Mormont's solar after getting the news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment. Ned dies a few days later (depending how fast news travel) and Jon gets the news between Jon VIII and Jon IX (when he deserts and comes back).

The change of seasons appears to be within days of their deaths. It just took longer for the Citadel to take measurements and send the white ravens.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I meant when he exits Mormont's solar after getting the news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment. Ned dies a few days later (depending how fast news travel) and Jon gets the news between Jon VIII and Jon IX (when he deserts and comes back)

Maybe Robb's ascension to Lord of Winterfell and later King in the North keeps winter at bay for a little while?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe Robb's ascension to Lord of Winterfell and later King in the North keeps winter at bay for a little while?

Hard to pinpoint when Winter started marching south. The first mention of "heavy snow" is at the Fist in Samwell I ASOS, but this is north of The Wall.

South of The Wall, in Reek I ADWD at the Dreadfort there was still no snow:

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The night air was cold and damp, but he saw no sign of snow though surely winter was close at hand. Reek wondered if he would be alive to see the snows come

There is also no mention of snow when they are in Barrowtown.

The first snow appears in The Prince of Winterfell and the first winter storm in The Turncloak. The first blizzard is mentioned in The Sacrifice around the time "a Stark at last" Theon leaves Winterfell.

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This same blizzard has engulfed the castle, alas. Beneath its walls we found Mors Umber with a troop of raw green boys, waiting for the king's coming. He gave us this."

(that is Theon and Jeyne)

At the Wall the only mention of heavy snow seems to be in Jon's last chapter on the day he is stabbed.

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The snow was falling heavily outside. "Wind's from the south," Yarwyck observed. "It's blowing the snow right up against the Wall. See?"

Cold winds rising in the south?

[Springwatch]

Fascinating topics; I just got to say a few things -

15 hours ago, Tucu said:

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe Robb's ascension to Lord of Winterfell and later King in the North keeps winter at bay for a little while?

Hard to pinpoint when Winter started marching south. The first mention of "heavy snow" is at the Fist in Samwell I ASOS, but this is north of The Wall.

Snow is a friendly force to the Starks, isn't it? They fight with snow weapons, they build snow castles, there are snow sentinels standing on Winterfell. Bran is hidden from the wights when a helpful blanket of snow falls on him (pointed out by Leaf).

Tentative conclusion: The snow is hurting Stannis because Winterfell hates Stannis. And why not? Stannis did try to kill Robb.

On Stannis: I've thought for a while now that Stannis is the winter storm between two summers. That's why Robert favours Renly, and why both of them are at ease with cheating Stannis of his 'rightful inheritance'. No-one likes winter, right? So why not bypass it?

ETA

I liked seeing this:

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She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart

Robert was that storm.