Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[Tucu]

16 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I googled the meaning of the name Alayne. It just means "precious", but my first thought was of Gollum and his ring, precious which is an object of power. Very fitting for a new and improved Sansa!

Alayne might be a derivation of Elaine, a name of multiple characters in Arthurian legend. Elaine is probably a cognate of Helen (of Troy). A few other names can be traced to names derived from Helen: Lyanna (from Ileana), Olenna (from Olena), Elia (from Eliana)

[Melifeather]

But then again Gollum's precious was in his possession, then in Bilbo's possession....The ring made the wearer invisible, but it's primary power was control of the other Rings of Power and domination of the wills of their users. The One Ring, also Ruling Ring, conferred power to dominate the wills of other beings whether they were wearing Rings or not—but only in proportion to the user's native capacity. 

I guess that makes Littlefinger, Gollum? 

[HoodedCrow]

Who is going to bite off Littlefinger’s finger?

[Springwatch]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Arya and Sansa are musical names. Arya very much is pronounced like aria which is specifically an accompanied, elaborate melody sung (as in an opera) by a single voice.

Musical names - very, very appropriate, But again GRRM has thrown a spanner in the works, insisting on a hard, positive AR - YA sound instead of the prettier aria

ETA

Sansa is also an MP3 player, and a mirror, and an airline. Too many things.

18 hours ago, Tucu said:

Alayne might be a derivation of Elaine, a name of multiple characters in Arthurian legend. Elaine is probably a cognate of Helen (of Troy). A few other names can be traced to names derived from Helen: Lyanna (from Ileana), Olenna (from Olena), Elia (from Eliana)

.And I think it is correct to make these connections, but it's not the whole story - there is also where in the story he places his Helens, his Elaines; and how he modifies the name.

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Also yes! This one drives me crazy. George says no - he denied the connection in an SSM. But George is a well read man - it's impossible that he could design the name Cersei without thinking of Circe. So what's going on? I'm guessing that he doesn't want us to stop at Circe, and he doesn't want the same sounds as Circe - his own sounds have meaning for him.

I'm noticing those soft, hissy 'S' sounds shared by Sansa and Cercei - without being too clever about this, I can see a poetical effect effect here, the similar to this one: 

- the sounds reinforce the meaning. George falls into alliteration sometimes - I've been looking for a quote, and here it is!

Hear those 'S's! I think they sort of define her - like Cersei, like the Lace Serpent, maybe others.

All the snake sounds made me think of this: 

 

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And I think it is correct to make these connections, but it's not the whole story - there is also where in the story he places his Helens, his Elaines; and how he modifies the name.

One more Helen: Elenei, daughter of the Sea god and the Goddess of the wind; wife to Durran Godsgrief who went to war with the gods.

Not sure if GRRM is providing hints or there are just a lot of names derived from Helen :-)

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Yes! I mean, not the thumb piano specifically, but Alayne is a different person to Sansa. I feel the differences, but find it hard to define them. Certainly Alayne is much closer to Sansa than Reek is to Theon.

Ah well, that's the Snowflake communion 

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

As for Cersei, I've read her name and inspiration came from the ancient Greek witch, Circe who turned men into pigs.

As for Daenerys, I'm not sure where GRRM got this name from. It does seem like the Targaryens have alot of names with "ae" in them. It helps to make for a separate native language for the Valyrians. In history though, the name Nerys in the Welsh tradition means "lady" whereas the "Dae" part sounds like "day" in the American language. Put them both together and it seems to imply Lady of Light, which also seems to fit her persona.

Danaerys is easy: In Greek mythology, Danaë was an Argive princess and mother of the hero Perseus by Zeus.

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Who is going to bite off Littlefinger’s finger?

Wasn't it Gollum that did the biting? Frodo was invisible so Gollum had to rely on touch to find the hand with the ring and bit the finger off. His gloating led to his fall into the Crack of Doom, the destruction of the ring, and the end of Sauron's works. If Littlefinger is Gollum then he may end up biting someone before he falls. Hopefully this doesn't mean that Sansa will be destroyed in the process.

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well, that's the Snowflake communion 

I'm still wowed by this (thanks @Tucu for mentioning it).

Theon wanted to marry Sansa once didn't he? And now they share this. Sweet.

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Danaerys is easy: In Greek mythology, Danaë was an Argive princess and mother of the hero Perseus by Zeus.

Danaë could not only be the first inspiration for Dany, but with that ae - probably the mother of all Targs as well. I looked her up on wikipedia:

Quote

In Greek mythology, Danaë (/ˈdæneɪ.i/^[1] or /ˈdeɪneɪ/;^[2] Ancient Greek: Δανάη, romanized: Danáē; Ancient Greek: [da.ná.ɛː], Modern: [ðaˈna.i]) 

It's fun to see  an ae behind the d in that first pronunciation - maybe George read those very lines, long, long ago. This feels like very deep archaeology. 

Anyway, after much ado looking up, I find Danaë (/ˈdæneɪ.i/ is pronounced Dan (as in pan) plus ay (as in face) plus 'y; (as in happy). It fits very well with the nickname 'Dany', but drops the 'day' sound which I cannot yet bring myself to do. 

[Springwatch]

Elinor might be a link between Alayne and her past. She's the leader of her younger friends Megga and Alla much as Sansa was with Jeyne and Beth. Sansa thinks of them as the children and innocents that she once was. 

[Frey family reunion]

“Sansa” is also a type of apple.  Which makes her “transformation” into Alayne Stone even more interesting.  She’s become a “stone apple”.  And there is a fruit called a “stone apple”.  It’s also known as a bael fruit.  So in other words Sansa, the apple, becomes a stone apple under the guidance of Petyr Baelish.  

(Kudos to Snowfyre)

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

“Sansa” is also a type of apple.  Which makes her “transformation” into Alayne Stone even more interesting.  She’s become a “stone apple”.  And there is a fruit called a “stone apple”.  It’s also known as a bael fruit.  So in other words Sansa, the apple, becomes a stone apple under the guidance of Petyr Baelish.  

(Kudos to Snowfyre)

Is that bael fruit (aka golden apple, bengal quince) the one we discussed when trying to decipher this random line from Arya:

Quote

She asked them how it went with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. Joss the Gloom shook his head. "Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem.

(considering that Alayne shares the dancing maid role with Ashara)

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Is that bael fruit (aka golden apple, bengal quince) the one we discussed when trying to decipher this random line from Arya:

(considering that Alayne shares the dancing maid role with Ashara)

Sounds good to me!

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Is that bael fruit (aka golden apple, bengal quince) the one we discussed when trying to decipher this random line from Arya:

(considering that Alayne shares the dancing maid role with Ashara)

Since Alayne shares the dancing maid role with Ashara and Ashara is the identity of Sloey, then Sansa cannot be Quence. Unless I am misunderstanding you? What I would suggest is that Jon Snow could be the Bael fruit or rather the fruit of the Quence or that Sloey gave birth to the Bael fruit.

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Since Alayne shares the dancing maid role with Ashara and Ashara is the identity of Sloey, then Sansa cannot be Quence. Unless I am misunderstanding you? What I would suggest is that Jon Snow could be the Bael fruit or rather the fruit of the Quence or that Sloey gave birth to the Bael fruit.

Not sure where I am going. Trying to play with Sansa's dual role. If Sansa is also Bael's fruit (like all Starks after Bael the Bard), then maybe one of the Stark kids (including Lyanna) found Ashara in bed with someone (that we can't identify yet)

[Tucu]

Also, how do we place the other sloe-eyed dancing beauty with the dark hair?: Taena Merryweather; she plots with the queen (Cersei) and beds her.

Quote

Lady Merryweather, the Myrish beauty with the black hair and the big dark eyes, spun so provocatively that every man in the hall was soon watching her

Quote

It was a woman's voice, flavored with the accents of the east. For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave. But it was only Merryweather's wife, the sloe-eyed beauty Lord Orton

 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Also, how do we place the other sloe-eyed dancing beauty with the dark hair?: Taena Merryweather; she plots with the queen (Cersei) and beds her.

 

Interesting replay of the sloe-eyed matron in bed. I'm not sure what to think about this. I'll have to mull that one over...

But back to someone finding Ashara in bed with someone. It has been suggested by other people that Ashara turned to Lyanna as the Stark, but personally that doesn't make any sense to me, because Barristan wishes he was the one that Ashara turned to which suggests she turned to a man.

I do think Robert is the parallel to Allaquo for several reasons beginning with the similarity of the name to Allaqua which is a red-gum tree that turns saliva red which in turn is a connection to a bloody smile and Robert's parallel with the Smiling Knight as well as his bloody smile that Ned notes when Robert was dying. Added to that is of all the men at Harrenhal, he would be the one most likely to be making the moves on the ladies. 

Quence, therefore is the one that came upon the scene. You might be tempted to connect Lyanna to Quence. It would make a tidy parallel if she were Jon's mother, except that in Arya's world Quence and Allaquo are both men. Quince is sometimes called Bael Fruit, so whomever Quence was he/she may have been one of Jon's parents. If this scene involving Ashara resulted in Jon, the Quence must be a Stark male in order for Jon to look so "Stark-y".

So inserting Sansa/Alayne into this parallel suggests that Alayne may be the recipient of unwanted advances by her own Allaquo. Do we have a red-smiling knight parallel in the Vale?

[Tucu]

Some dots connecting the sloe hints

Ashara: dancing beauty in Harrenhal. Dance with Ned, was dishonored, had a child and jumped from a tower. Daenerys eyes remind Barristan of Ashara

Sloe-eyed maid: spicer ship; Daenerys was inside her. It went under in Sweetsister

Taena: Cersei sees her as sloe-eyed; Sansa as a black-eyed Myrish beauty. She beds the queen and plots with her. The queen tells her about the prophecy from Maggy of House Spicer

Sloey: key part on the fight between two drunk oarsmen

Jon Snow: eyes almost black and a "blushing maid" until Ygrette rescued him:

Quote

If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play.

And then there is Ned that left a fisherman's daugther with a bastard in Sweetsister

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

So inserting Sansa/Alayne into this parallel suggests that Alayne may be the recipient of unwanted advances by her own Allaquo. Do we have a red-smiling knight parallel in the Vale?

In one of the Alayne chapters there's a bald knight named Ser Ossifer Lipps who's sigil is dark blue with a huge set of pink lips. He and another knight named Ser Uther Shett of Gulltown were oggling Myranda's large bosom. Myranda told Alayne she was hoping the two knights would duel for her hand and kill each other.

I think we may have found our pink lips parallel...