Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

It may be that Lem Lemoncloak is only a parallel to Richard Lonmouth? His appearance is more of a description of something Richard may have done. 

I think that's very possible.  Just because two characters may share a lot of symbolism between the two, doesn't mean that they are the same person.  There's been a bunch of theories about Mance actually being Rhaegar and Qhorin actually being Arthur Dayen, because of a number of parallels.  

But there may be a reason for the parallels for reasons other than the characters being the same person.

It seems unlikely that the coarse, Lem Lemoncloak, with a wife and family in the Riverlands, was once a stormlord in the inner circle of Rhaegar.  Not impossible mind you, just unlikely.  But there may be other reasons that there are parallels between the two characters.

[Frey family reunion]

As for Richard Lonmouth, my personal suspicion, is that he (and a number of Rhaegar's close confidants) may have been gay.  We've been given a lot of evidence concerning Jon Connington, but it wouldn't surprise me if we found out that he wasn't the only one who may have had ulterior motives for Rhaegar's attention.

The tale of Joffrey Lonmouth from The Rogue Prince, might be a hint.  Joffrey also being a "knight of kisses"  and a paramour of Laenor Velaryon.

If Lonmouth is still out and about, like Connington, I would look to Essos, not Westeros.

[Frey family reunion]

Speaking of Joffrey Lonmouth, it is kind of interesting that back in the day of the Dance, Joffrey was referred to only as the Knight of Kisses.  Fast forward to the Harrenhal tourney, Lonmouth is referred to as the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  And if you look at their sigil, it's clear that their current sigil is made up of the sigils of two houses combined.  Which often happens when a bride's house has a big influence on the heirs.  Joffrey Baratheon quartered his stag with the lion for example

So what could that possibly tell us about House Lonmouth and Ser Richard?  The only other House that I'm aware of that has a skull as it's sigil, is House Manwoody of Kingsgrave.  Which just so happens to have their lands smack dab in the middle of Prince's Pass.  Undoubtably this is the castle that directly reigned over the tower of joy.

Manwoody is also a Dornish House, who's maternal lineage is the equal of a paternal one.  So it wouldn't surprise me if at some point Lonmouth wed with Manwoody, further solidifying the connection with Rhaegar and the location of the tower of joy.

The other possibility, though a little bit more remote, is that the skulls on Lonmouth might be a subtle nod to Bittersteel's Golden Company.  And this is where fellow Stormlander and Rhaegar confidant, Ser Connington, sought refuge after his exile.  

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Speaking of Joffrey Lonmouth, it is kind of interesting that back in the day of the Dance, Joffrey was referred to only as the Knight of Kisses.  Fast forward to the Harrenhal tourney, Lonmouth is referred to as the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  And if you look at their sigil, it's clear that their current sigil is made up of the sigils of two houses combined.  Which often happens when a bride's house has a big influence on the heirs.  Joffrey Baratheon quartered his stag with the lion for example

So what could that possibly tell us about House Lonmouth and Ser Richard?  The only other House that I'm aware of that has a skull as it's sigil, is House Manwoody of Kingsgrave.  Which just so happens to have their lands smack dab in the middle of Prince's Pass.  Undoubtably this is the castle that directly reigned over the tower of joy.

Manwoody is also a Dornish House, who's maternal lineage is the equal of a paternal one.  So it wouldn't surprise me if at some point Lonmouth wed with Manwoody, further solidifying the connection with Rhaegar and the location of the tower of joy.

The other possibility, though a little bit more remote, is that the skulls on Lonmouth might be a subtle nod to Bittersteel's Golden Company.  And this is where fellow Rhaegar confidant, Ser Connington, sought refuge after his exile.  

Criston Cole crushed Joffrey Lonmouth's skull with a morning star during the tourney for Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding.

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but it was the Knight of Kisses who felt the fullest measure of his wroth. Cole’s favorite weapon was the morningstar, and the blows he rained down on Ser Laenor’s champion cracked his helm and left him senseless in the mud. Borne bloody from the field, Ser Joffrey died without recovering consciousness six days later. Mushroom tells us that Ser Laenor spent every hour of those days at his bedside and wept bitterly when the Stranger claimed him.

 

[Melifeather]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:47 AM, Tucu said:

My theory is that the Alayne chapters are intended as a mummer's play, so attitudes and events are exaggerated. In one layer we have Littlefinger manipulation of the succession in the Vale and at another we have a recreation of some of the events around the Harrenhal tourney.

Something similar is going on in the Mercy chapter. Arya is playing the role of no-one who is playing Mercy who is playing a maid probably based in Sansa. The play and reality mix when Arya comes of out Mercy to recreate Raff giving the gift of mercy to Lommy and creating trouble between the Iron Throne and Braavos.

This is what I am thinking as well. Ossifer Lipps and Uther Shett are repeating roles - unaware I might add. In the mummer's play, Seven Drunken Oarsmen, Quence and Allaquo were to play two of the oarsmen, but they had a falling out when Quence found Allaquo in bed with Sloey, then they went at one another with swords. In the Alayne chapter Myranda said she hoped Ossifer and Uther would duel for her hand to the death. I suspect that these are roles played earlier by Richard Lonmouth and Robert Baratheon. The play must be multi-layered, because not only could it be about the lords of seven houses fighting in the Rebellion, it could also be about seven formerly friendly drinking buddies that had a falling out. Well, at least two of them did over a woman.

[Melifeather]

LOL, okay...I'm rereading The Queenmaker chapter...why did GRRM describe Darkstar's appearance like Cruella DeVille's?

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Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords. If there was a handsomer man in Dorne she did not know him. Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

GRRM gets quite corny with regards to Darkstar:

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"Are you the Sword of the Morning now?"

"No. Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night."

As Tucu pointed out attitudes and events are exaggerated when characters are about to repeat a role from the past. They become mummers, and I think GRRM lets us know when the characters are being mummers when he gives us stuff like this.

Edited to add: they are "bad actors". 

[Melifeather]

Sorry for the play by play (har!) but Arianne just pitted Darkstar against Ser Arys Oakheart:

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He must have felt her gaze upon him, for he looked up from his sword, met her eyes, and smiled. Arianne felt heat rushing to her face. I should never have brought him. If he gives me such a look when Arys is here, we will have blood on the sand. Whose, she could not say. By tradition the Kingsguard were the finest knights in all the Seven Kingdoms...but Darkstar was Darkstar.

A knight against another knight over a woman.

In my analysis of the Queenmaker chapter, my early thoughts were that Arianne is a mummer playing Cersei, Gerold Dayne is a mummer combo of Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne, and Arys Oakheart is a mummer playing Robert Baratheon. Maybe these Seven Oarsmen were all fighting over women?

There is drinking going on. Everyone is drinking "summerwine", all but Darkstar. He prefers lemonwater and then goes off to piss, but Arys is the "tee-totaler" - he doesn't drink. In this regard he's the opposite of Robert Baratheon, but then again he's the one that gets killed by Areo Hotah who seems to be a mummer playing Gregor Clegane.

[Melifeather]

There seems to be alot of bad scripting going around. The exaggerated characters are "bad actors" thus the Cruella DeVille description and the "I am of the night" line. Circling back to the Knight of Skulls and Kisses...he could be interpreted as giving the "kiss of death".

In the Queenmaker chapter there's "Garin the Great, wonder of the Rhoyne". Garin is Arianne's milk brother even though he's an orphan of the Greenblood. I think he's a mummer playing Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer. Recall that the ancient Garin from the Rhoyne drowned in a golden cage. Jaime wore his golden armor when he slew King Aerys. This was the final blow that signaled the end of the Rebellion. If you think about it, the "orphans of the Rhoyne" could be another play title for the rebel houses that had lost their king. People question where Tywin's loyalties lay. Was he an orphan or was he a loyalist? Arianne's milk brother was an orphan raised in a castle - a duality that suggests Jaime was a double-agent. Cue the music....Secret Agent Man!

There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes
Another chance he takes
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

Secret Agent Man!
Secret Agent Man!
They've given you a number and taken away your name

Beware of pretty faces that you find
A pretty face can hide an evil mind
Oh, be careful what you say
Or you'll give yourself away
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow

Secret Agent Man!
Secret Agent Man!
They've given you a number and taken away your name

Swinging on the Riviera one day
And then laying in a Bombay alley next day
Oh, don't you let the wrong words slip
While kissing persuasive lips
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow

Secret Agent Man!
Secret Agent Man!
They've given you a number and taken away your name

Garin entertained Arianne's group with:

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"the latest tales from the Planky Town at the mouth of the Greenblood, where the orphans of the river came to trade with the carracks, dogs, and galleys from across the narrow sea..."

How does someone get across a small river or creek? You throw a plank across so you can go over. "Planky Town" therefore is likely the Twin Towers bridge where the Freys live on the Green Fork. It's an exaggeration to compare their stronghold to a plank, but it shouldn't be surprising if Walder Frey fed the Lannisters information about the rebel houses. He was Hoster Tully's bannerman and not only is Emmon Frey married to Genna Lannister, Merrett Frey was a squire to Sumner Crakehall along side Jaime Lannister.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

LOL, okay...I'm rereading The Queenmaker chapter...why did GRRM describe Darkstar's appearance like Cruella DeVille's?

GRRM gets quite corny with regards to Darkstar:

As Tucu pointed out attitudes and events are exaggerated when characters are about to repeat a role from the past. They become mummers, and I think GRRM lets us know when the characters are being mummers when he gives us stuff like this.

Edited to add: they are "bad actors". 

The hair colour caught my attention. Oberyn's hair has a reverse pattern (silver streaks on black) and his eyes are almost black:

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Beneath, his face was lined and saturnine, with thin arched brows above large eyes as black and shiny as pools of coal oil. Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded from his brow in a widow's peak as sharply pointed as his nose.

Darkstar might be an exaggerated version of Oberyn:

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Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It's just a pity that he never got around to killing him

Oberyn milked vipers for venom, Darkstar drinked the venom:

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“Watch where you set your feet,” Drey cautioned. “It has been a while since Prince Oberyn milked the local vipers.”

“I was weaned on venom, Dalt. Any viper takes a bite of me will rue it.” Ser Gerold vanished through a broken arch.

Oberyn was dangerous, Gerold even more:

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Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him

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You were a fool to make him part of this. Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. You and he have done us all great harm

And Oberyn tried to play the kingmaker for a while:

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"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?"

"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war.

 

[Melifeather]

Sorry about the multiple posts, but once I get on a roll its hard to resist.

I've found another exaggerated character. The stereotypical villain. He wears black, has sleek black hair, maybe even a handlebar mustache that he twirls while laughing devilishly. A smiling "night", if you will. If a man-in-black shows up in an old movie, you just knew he was going to be the bad guy. 

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...I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. 

There're a few black-haired men in our story, but one stands out in particular: Robert Baratheon.

 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The hair colour caught my attention. Oberyn's hair has a reverse pattern (silver on black) and his eyes are almost black:

Darkstar might be an exaggerated version of Oberyn:

Oberyn milked vipers for venom, Darkstar drinked the venom:

Oberyn was dangerous, Gerold even more:

And Oberyn tried to play the kingmaker for a while:

 

Yes, I can see that comparison. With a name like Gerold Dayne and Darkstar, he's an over the top actor with bad lines. I think he's playing multiple roles. Perhaps that is why his lines are so bad?

Tywin is also referred to as a pit viper. Not sure what to add to that, so I'll just leave it there for now.

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Sorry about the multiple posts, but once I get on a roll its hard to resist.

I've found another exaggerated character. The stereotypical villain. He wears black, has sleek black hair, maybe even a handlebar mustache that he twirls while laughing devilishly. A smiling "night", if you will. If a man-in-black shows up in an old movie, you just knew he was going to be the bad guy. 

There're a few black-haired men in our story, but one stands out in particular: Robert Baratheon.

 

That robber knight matches Oberyn's description that I posted before: black eyes and widow's peak. Arianne is weird.

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

That robber knight matches Oberyn's description that I posted before: black eyes and widow's peak. Arianne is weird.

Yes, I agree Arianne seems to have a crush on her uncle. I'm just saying that black hair may be a deliberate feature of stereotypical villains. We should view the black-haired characters as suspects. If we're watching an old movie, we are cued in to who the bad man is. He wears black whereas the good guy wears white. Although the Kingsguard are just as bad as the man in black.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, I agree Arianne seems to have a crush on her uncle. I'm just saying that black hair may be a deliberate feature of stereotypical villains. We should view the black-haired characters as suspects. If we're watching an old movie, we are cued in to who the bad man is. He wears black whereas the good guy wears white. Although the Kingsguard are just as bad as the man in black.

I got your point, but the kidnap-rape fantasy with Oberyn was a surprise.

Back to robber knights. I found 3 tales in the books: The Smiling Knight, Beric's brotherhood and How Kevan got his wife....bare with me, this is a long post.

Wikipedia has this description for robber barons and robber knights:

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A robber baron or robber knight was an unscrupulous feudal landowner who, protected by his fief's legal status, imposed high taxes and tolls out of keeping with the norm without authorization by some higher authority. Some resorted to actual banditry.

Medieval robber barons most often imposed high or unauthorized tolls on rivers or roads passing through their territory. Some robbed merchants, land travelers, and river traffic—seizing money, cargoes, entire ships, or engaged in kidnapping for ransom.

The Smiling Knight and the Kingswood brotherhood kidnapped nobles for ransom. This is Jamie's account of his death:

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The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

Ned declares Gregor Clegane an outlaw and sends Beric to hunt him down. After Bob's and Ned's deaths Beric becomes a robber knight himself and goes "collecting taxes" and kidnapping nobles for ransom:

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"What else? It wasn't for the pleasure of looking at your face, Dondarrion, I'll tell you that. You're uglier than me now. And a robber knight besides, it seems."

"I gave you a note for your gold," Lord Beric said calmly. "A promise to pay, when the war's done."

Now we get at the tale on how Kevan Lannister got his wife. In AFFC Kevan tells this to Jamie:

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"I was hanging outlaws and robber knights when you were still shitting in your swaddling clothes. I am not like to go off and face Clegane and Dondarrion by myself, if that is what you fear, ser. Not every Lannister is a fool for glory."

The world book expands on this:

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The return of Lord Tytos's sons from war finally heralded change. Hardened by battle, and all too aware of the low regard in which the other lords of the realm held his father, Ser Tywin Lannister set out at once to restore the pride and power of Casterly Rock. His sire protested but feebly, we are told, then retreated back to the arms of his wet nurse whilst his heir took command.

Ser Tywin began by demanding repayment of all the gold Lord Tytos had lent out. Those who could not pay were required to send hostages to Casterly Rock. Five hundred knights, blooded and seasoned veterans of the Stepstones, were formed into a new company under the command of Ser Tywin's brother Ser Kevan, and charged with ridding the west of robber knights and outlaws.

So Kevan was sent by Tywin to hunt robber knights and outlaws. Nothing strange so far, until we get this detail:

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Some hastened to obey. "The lion has awoken," said Ser Harys Swyft, the Knight of Cornfield, when the collectors arrived at his castle gates. Unable to repay his debt, he turned his daughter over to Ser Kevan as a hostage instead. But elsewhere, the collectors were met with sullen resistance and open defiance. Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin's edicts and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing.

So he took Swift's daughter Dorna as hostage for ransom. Quite a high tax even for a robber knight. So many years have passed and he still doesn't allow her to leave Lannisport:

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"Your wife … do you mean to bring her to court?"

"No." Dorna was a gentle soul, never comfortable but at home with friends and kin around her. She had done well by their children, dreamed of having grandchildren, prayed seven times a day, loved needlework and flowers. In King's Landing she would be as happy as one of Tommen's kittens in a pit of vipers. "My lady wife mislikes travel. Lannisport is her place."

The extended version of "The Westerlands" available in GRRM's site add this to Kevan's collector days:

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and “assisting in the collection of unpaid debts due to his lordship, my sire.”   Moreover, the lords of the west were commanded to feed and shelter Ser Kevan’s “collectors” as they made their way from castle to castle.

 

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I got your point, but the kidnap-rape fantasy with Oberyn was a surprise.

Back to robber knights. I found 3 tales in the books: The Smiling Knight, Beric's brotherhood and How Kevan got his wife....bare with me.

Wikipedia has this description for robber barons and robber knights:

The Smiling Knight and the Kingswood brotherhood kidnapped nobles for ransom. This is Jamie's account of his death:

Ned declares Gregor Clegane an outlaw and sends Beric to hunt him down. After Bob's and Ned's deaths Beric becomes a robber knight himself and goes "collecting taxes" and kidnapping nobles for ransom:

Now we get at the tale on how Kevan Lannister got his wife. In AFFC Kevan tells this to Jamie:

The world book expands on this:

So Kevan was sent by Tywin to hunt robber knights and outlaws. Nothing strange so far, until we get this detail:

So he took Swift's daugther Dorna as hostage for ransom. Quite a high tax even for a robber knight. So many years have passed and he still doesn't allow her to leave Lannisport:

The extended version of "The Westerlands" available in GRRM's site add this to Kevan's collector days:

 

Yes, I quite agree. This is something that I had noticed back when I first was analyzing the Queenmaker chapter. The Kingswood Brotherhood supposedly was brought down by a detachment sent by King Aerys and led by Ser Arthur Dayne, who only led because Gregor Hightower had been injured by the KWB when they attacked Princess Elia. Now who, I ask, would want to attack and either kill or kidnap Elia? It seems obvious to me that Tywin would've liked to remove Elia and marry Cersei to Rhaegar. King Aerys turned him down when Rhaegar was still a bachelor, and Tywin was quite insulted, but he didn't leave his job as Hand until King Aerys raised Jaime to the Kingsguard. Backing up slightly, these are the events that led to Tywin's resignation:

1) King Aerys lusted after Joanna and Rhaella dismissed her from court.

2) After the death of his father Tytus, Tywin and Aerys ruled the realm for one year from Casterly Rock. By the time they both returned to Kings Landing their relationship was frayed. Aerys began to overrule Tywin's decisions.

3) King Aerys insulted Joanna at the Anniversary Tourney when he asked her if her breasts had been ruined by breastfeeding Cersei and Jaime. Tywin resigned, but Aerys refused his resignation.

4) People began to say that Tywin was the real king, and Aerys became jealous. This is probably why he not only refused to promise Rhaegar to Cersei, but he added insult to injury when he said he wouldn't marry his son to the daughter of a servant.

5) Aerys refused to allow Jaime to squire for Rhaegar.

6) The whole Duskendale affair occurred next in 277. Aerys believed then that Tywin had plotted to have him killed just so that he could then marry Cersei to Rhaegar. About 3 years later, Rhaegar married Elia in 280.

7) Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to find a bride for Rhaegar, but he and his wife perished in a shipwreck on his return. Aerys thought Tywin had somehow managed the wreck as an assassination. After that he would only meet Tywin in the presence of the Kingsguard.

8) Elia is attacked sometime in early 281. This is based on Jaime's age of when he was knighted, the length of time he spent at Casterly Rock before going to the Harrenhal Tourney, and the time of year that encompassed the False Spring which is said to be the last two months of that year.

9) News got out that Tywin was negotiating with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lysa. Aerys reacts by raising 15 year old Jaime to the Kingsguard. This is the final straw for Tywin, and he resigns and goes home to Casterly Rock. 

Notice how close the attack on Elia is to when Tywin finally resigned. I think its entirely possible that the members of the Kingswood Brotherhood were actually "stage names" for men employed by Tywin Lannister. Kevan certainly had alot of practice and I'm sure he commanded Tywin's assembled group of 500 knights who were bloodied and seasoned fighters of the Stepstones.

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I got your point, but the kidnap-rape fantasy with Oberyn was a surprise.

I think Arianne's creepy kidnap-rape fantasy with her uncle is intended to be a parallel to this creepy uncle and niece, Kevan's thoughts about Cersei:

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A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The fire soon thawed him, and the wine warmed his insides nicely. It also made him sleepy, so he dare not drink another cup. His day was far from done. He had reports to read, letters to write. And supper with Cersei and the king. His niece had been subdued and submissive since her walk of atonement, thank the gods. The novices who attended her reported that she spent a third of her waking hours with her son, another third in prayer, and the rest in her tub. She was bathing four or five times a day, scrubbing herself with horsehair brushes and strong lye soap, as if she meant to scrape her skin off.

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

 

 

[Tucu]

53 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, I quite agree. This is something that I had noticed back when I first was analyzing the Queenmaker chapter. The Kingswood Brotherhood supposedly was brought down by a detachment sent by King Aerys and led by Ser Arthur Dayne, who only led because Gregor Hightower had been injured by the KWB when they attacked Princess Elia. Now who, I ask, would want to attack and either kill or kidnap Elia? It seems obvious to me that Tywin would've liked to remove Elia and marry Cersei to Rhaegar. King Aerys turned him down when Rhaegar was still a bachelor, and Tywin was quite insulted, but he didn't leave his job as Hand until King Aerys raised Jaime to the Kingsguard. Backing up slightly, these are the events that led to Tywin's resignation:

1) King Aerys lusted after Joanna and Rhaella dismissed her from court.

2) After the death of his father Tytus, Tywin and Aerys ruled the realm for one year from Casterly Rock. By the time they both returned to Kings Landing their relationship was frayed. Aerys began to overrule Tywin's decisions.

3) King Aerys insulted Joanna at the Anniversary Tourney when he asked her if her breasts had been ruined by breastfeeding Cersei and Jaime. Tywin resigned, but Aerys refused his resignation.

4) People began to say that Tywin was the real king, and Aerys became jealous. This is probably why he not only refused to promise Rhaegar to Cersei, but he added insult to injury when he said he wouldn't marry his son to the daughter of a servant.

5) Aerys refused to allow Jaime to squire for Rhaegar.

6) The whole Duskendale affair occurred next in 277. Aerys believed then that Tywin had plotted to have him killed just so that he could then marry Cersei to Rhaegar. About 3 years later, Rhaegar married Elia in 280.

7) Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to find a bride for Rhaegar, but he and his wife perished in a shipwreck on his return. Aerys thought Tywin had somehow managed the wreck as an assassination. After that he would only meet Tywin in the presence of the Kingsguard.

8) Elia is attacked sometime in early 281. This is based on Jaime's age of when he was knighted, the length of time he spent at Casterly Rock before going to the Harrenhal Tourney, and the time of year that encompassed the False Spring which is said to be the last two months of that year.

9) News got out that Tywin was negotiating with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lysa. Aerys reacts by raising 15 year old Jaime to the Kingsguard. This is the final straw for Tywin, and he resigns and goes home to Casterly Rock. 

Notice how close the attack on Elia is to when Tywin finally resigned. I think its entirely possible that the members of the Kingswood Brotherhood were actually "stage names" for men employed by Tywin Lannister. Kevan certainly had alot of practice and I'm sure he commanded Tywin's assembled group of 500 knights who were bloodied and seasoned fighters of the Stepstones.

Knowing that this was part of Tywin and Kevan M.O. since they were lion pups certainly makes them prime suspects for all the kidnapping operations since Tywin's quarrel with Aerys

28 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think Arianne's creepy kidnap-rape fantasy with her uncle is intended to be a parallel to this creepy uncle and niece, Kevan's thoughts about Cersei:

 

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and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled

Did Kevan meet Lyanna? Is he recalling from his own memory or from hearsay?

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Did Kevan met Lyanna? Is he recalling from his own memory or from hearsay?

Okay. I have repeatedly suggested that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar, but rather a group of men pretending to be Rhaegar and his men. Its not beyond Tywin's means to have a second suit of armor made to look just like Rhaegar's. I also see Robert's death bed scene as being symbolic of Lyanna's own death - gored by a different sort of boar. Ned certainly had deja vu. Sumner Crakehall's sigil is a boar, and if Tywin's brother Kevan carried out the kidnapping then he most certainly knew what she looked like. I don't know what I like better. Sumner's boar or Richard Monmouth's deadly kisses.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

GRRM gets quite corny with regards to Darkstar:

Speaking of cartoonish villains, that quote makes me think of this as a companion piece:

Quote

A smile played across Euron’s blue lips. “I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. ”

But back to Ser Gerold, I agree with Tucu that his hair seems to be a mirror image of Oberyn's black with a silver streak.  There is another character of recent Dornish descent that also has that odd streak:

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Valarr, the Young Prince, stood vigil at the foot of the bier while his father lay in state. He was a shorter, slimmer, handsomer version of his sire, without the twice-broken nose that had made Baelor seem more human than royal. Valarr’s hair was brown, but a bright streak of silver-gold ran through it.

We're given a bunch of visual hints that Gerold Dayne may have had a recent influx of Targaryen blood, I wonder if Oberyn's silver streak might also be a clue to a Targaryen bloodline more recent than the first Daenaerys.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Notice how close the attack on Elia is to when Tywin finally resigned. I think its entirely possible that the members of the Kingswood Brotherhood were actually "stage names" for men employed by Tywin Lannister.

Except that we've met at least one member of the Kingswood Brotherhood in the Night's Watch.