Once again: Tower of Joy and House of the Undying debate...

[Daeron the Daring]

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . - ACOK, Dany IV

So, this section of Daenerys' vision from the HotU really confuses me. Mostly because I can't decide to who the third section refers to, but I'll try. It's hard to think of something new to me at this point regarding ASOIAF that doesn't sound like tinfoil, but I had this idea which I haven't ever saw on the forum (started visiting the forum about 3 years ago).

So the first section: 

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

This pretty much refers to some Azor Ahai stuff and his Lightbringer, but what's more interesting is that this saviour guy has blue eyes, which in light of what happened to Jon at the end of ADWD, could easily mean he'll have blue eyes (we know how). But at the same time as someone who thinks The Night's King was the good guy and the Last Hero himself, this could describe him as well, which could easily mean the same kinda fate awaits Jon himself? I mean, we know the tale of the Night's King, but could there be unspokenn stuff hidden away in the form of the Last Hero? Nonetheless this sentence states our PTWP will become a king. 

Edit: Young Griff has blue eyes, btw. Could THAT be proof he is the King wielding the sword? 

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A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd

A section entirely referring to Young Griff in ACOK!!! I might be wrong but didn't we put Young Griff's creation to sometimes later? (I might be wrong, tho, didn't check that) But this section is pretty clear to everyone, the only weird thing is how it's put between two sections refering to Jon: Yes, I think the third one is also talking about Jon. 

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . 

So, Jon was supposedly born at the Tower of Joy. Tower, right? Now this specific tower was destroyed and demolished by Eddard Stark himself. There must have been stuff to burn down as well, no? Could that be the smoke coming from our tower? OR, assuming RLJ is in fact true (believe me, it is), could the smoke again be there just for the simbolism of the winged stone beast (basically a dragon) that breathes shadow fire? The PTWP is also said to be born amidst smoke and salt. We've got the smoke at least, right? 

What I basically mean is that this line is another heavy hint that Jon is TPTWP. Of course I don't know why the winged beast breathes SHADOW flame, where the salt remains and why is it a stone beast, but I guess it still makes sense. 

About the winged beast being of stone: Melisandre is talking about waking up the stone dragon, which is again connected go Azor Ahai. But she doesn't talk about waking up dragon/s from stone, just the dragon/s made of stone woking up. Which, thanks to the HotU, is now known to us that it had woken up at a tower, or will. 

And is the Stone Dragon (Jon Snow) Azor Ahai, or the Lightbringer? Can TPTWP be the Lightbringer, and not Azor Ahai? That would fit into the Rhaegar=Azor Ahai and Lyanna=Nissa Nissa theory. If not, then why? I wonder what you people think about this. 

[The Commentator]

I disagree. The identity of Azor Ahai has been revealed. Daenerys is AA. She brought the dragons from stone.  

[Mourning Star]

16 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I disagree. The identity of Azor Ahai has been revealed. Daenerys is AA. She brought the dragons from stone.  

Azor Ahai is the Dragon who was Promised, and the Dragon has three heads.

I would expect three character to fulfill the prophesy each in their own way... Probably Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

36 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, this section of Daenerys' vision from the HotU really confuses me.

I think to make any sort of sense of the House of the Undying visions (And this is my speculation, obviously), one has to take a step back and look at the entirety of what Dany sees and is told.

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

I do honestly think there is a coherent message to the entirety of Dany's visit to the house of the Undying, it isn't just random flashes of nonsese. Remember that the visions you are referring to are shown to Dany in response to her asking about what she saw in the hall.

But, oh boy, what a rabbit hole to try and explain... any coherent theory will be built on assumptions others believe are tinfoil.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This pretty much refers to some Azor Ahai stuff and his Lightbringer, but what's more interesting is that this saviour guy has blue eyes

Point of clarification.  The "king" in the image is referred to as "blue eyed" not "blue eyes".  In other words, you can't rule out Euron.  And if you read the passage where Victarion emerges from his cabin after the red priest does his vodoo on him, you'll notice a lot of the same imagery as the imagery of the sword in the vision.

I bring this up, because it currently seems more likely that Dany will end up coming into conflict with Euron and his "sword" Victarion than she will with Stannis and his "red sword" Melisandre.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I disagree. The identity of Azor Ahai has been revealed. Daenerys is AA. She brought the dragons from stone.  

Well Melissandre said that Azor Ahai will be reborn so it must be true...

[Daeron the Daring]

19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I disagree. The identity of Azor Ahai has been revealed. Daenerys is AA. She brought the dragons from stone.  

The most interesting part is how different people refer to stone dragons in a diffefent way. Sometimes they say the stone beast/s or dragon/s must be woken up, sometimes these beasts and dragons must be woken up from stone. There's Melisandre as well, who says both. And I mean both. And sometimes Azor Ahai has to wake them up, sometimes Melisandre tries to handle this little part (when he wants to sacrifice Edric Storm), and there are cases where no connection is made, just that they (or it) woke up when Azor Ahai arrives. 

The interesting part is how we get a literal description of TPTWP in Daenerys' vision. A blue-eyed king wielding Lightbringer. Did Daenerys saw this individual's face as well, meaning she could recognize him once they meet (assuming the dude's alive and isn't the previous Azor Ahai). 

And still, I consider Daenerys an AA candidate. There are signs pointing at Jon and only Jon, others only at Daenerys, yes. 

[Daeron the Daring]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Point of clarification.  The "king" in the image is referred to as "blue eyed" not "blue eyes".  In other words, you can't rule out Euron.  And if you read the passage where Victarion emerges from his cabin after the red priest does his vodoo on him, you'll notice a lot of the same imagery as the imagery of the sword in the vision.

I bring this up, because it currently seems more likely that Dany will end up coming into conflict with Euron and his "sword" Victarion than she will with Stannis and his "red sword" Melisandre.

Not sure if "a king with blue eyes" and "a blue-eyed king" means anything different. But let's not assume Euron is the saviour of the human race, that'd be too bad for humanity, I imagine. 

[Daeron the Daring]

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think to make any sort of sense of the House of the Undying visions (And this is my speculation, obviously), one has to take a step back and look at the entirety of what Dany sees and is told.

I approach the House of the Undying from an entirely different side. 

I don't think the vision wants to answer any questions that he himself dropped out, or explain any riddle he himself told Daenerys. It's rather a bucket of mess left behind to her and us to solve. I don't even think it's that big of a deal at this point to the readers. For example, the yet not understood lines of Patchface is a bigger mistery to me than the HotU. 

[Daeron the Daring]

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I do honestly think there is a coherent message to the entirety of Dany's visit to the house of the Undying, it isn't just random flashes of nonsese. Remember that the visions you are referring to are shown to Dany in response to her asking about what she saw in the hall.

I mean, the visions clearly referred to Jon before as well, but I don't think the vision itself was a two-sided conversation. The Undying told her what they wanted to, pretty much out of context. Proof to this is that they meant to make Daenerys their companion for an eternity, didn't they? 

Edit: sry for the separate replies... 

[Megorova]

It's my post on this topic from a different thread:

On 5/23/2021 at 4:43 PM, Megorova said:

GRRM used the same formula while writing Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying (in ACOK, Dany IV). If the reverse of this formula will be applied to reorder Dany’s visions (once to shift the order of sets - daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire - the third should be placed as the first; then the same shifting also should be applied to the order of the visions in each set; and then for a third time to the last three visions, because GRRM is using trinities everywhere), then this is what we’ll get (chronological order of those events):

1. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

2. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

3. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

4. Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

5. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

6. Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

7. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

8. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

9. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Blue flowers in ASOIAF are symbolizing Lyanna Stark - “the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance” - TWOIAF, The Year of the Falce Spring; “Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.” - AGOT, Ned I. The dying prince in that vision is Rhaegar. So it’s a logical conclusion that the next vision is about Jon’s birth, and that the smoking tower is the Tower of Joy. In this case the lie to slay is the “smoke screen” that Ned Stark created to cover the true origin of Jon Snow. So in that vision the winged stone beast is Jon. And he will be the last dragon that will be awakened from stone - “Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.” - AGOT, Bran III.

The first three visions are from the distant past - events that happened at the time of Robert’s Rebellion. The next three are covering events that occurred in 297-299 AC - Dany’s wedding with Khal Drogo, Visery’s death at Vaes Dothrak, Melisandre giving fake Lightbringer to Stannis and crowning him as the King of the 7K. And the last three are the visions of the future, which also means that Rhaego is alive, because in one of them Dany saw her son as an adult.

The blue-eyed king is Stannis, and he has no shadow because Melisandre took it for her shadowbinding, to create her and Stannis' shadow-babies (like the one that she sent to kill Renly).

Stannis' sword is fake, it's not a Lightbringer. And it wasn't Stannis who hatched dragon eggs, and his arrival wasn't heralded by the Bleeding Star. So the lie to slay in this case is that Stannis is supposedly Azor Ahai Reborn. The real AAR is the Three-Headed Dragon of House Targaryen - Dany (the Mother of Dragons), Rhaego (whose birth was heralded by the Bleeding Star), and Jon (who will become the Sword of the Morning and will find the real Lightbringer/Dawn of Daynes).

The vision with the mummers dragon is about fAegon, who is claiming that he is a Targaryen, which is a lie because actually he is a Blackfyre (and Varys and Illyrio are the mummers).

And the vision with the Tower is also a lie to slay. The tower is smoking because that's where Ned Stark created a lie (smoke screen) about who Jon is. Jon is not Ned's bastard, and also he wasn't born at the Tower of Joy, instead he was born at Starfall under the bleeding stars (there are stars everywhere in that castle's interior and exterior, and the stars were "bleeding" because that scene has occurred in the bedroom with Lyanna's "bed of blood", where she was giving birth to Jon and there were stars everywhere - on the ceiling, on the bed and bedcovers, etc).

By hatching dragon eggs, Dany has already disproved that Stannis is Azor Ahai. She will somehow find out and reveal that fAegon is not who he claims to be, she will prove that he is not Rhaegar's son (maybe through a dragon-test). And then she will find out who Jon really is (maybe also with a dragon-test). That's why Dany is the slayer of lies.

[Darth Sidious]

Stannis is the “king” with the sword in the vision. One of the lies to be slain by Daenerys. Stannis and Mellisandre are guilty of this first lie. Daenerys Targaryen will  be revealed to the people as the real Azor Ahai. Stannis is a fake.  Jon is not Azor Ahai. Mellissandre might try to present Jon as Azor Ahai and that will be another lie that must be slain. I would not put it past Mellissandre to do a lot of creative spinning (like a of of Jon’s supporters do!) to sell Jon as Azor Ahai. And a few people in the north will fall for the lie. Until Daenerys proves them wrong. 

[HoodedCrow]

I don’t know how, but if Arya ever works with Dany , she has had lie detector lessons.

[Lord Varys]

The vision refers to a lie that Daenerys is going to slay - either literally or figuratively (say, by existing and being the savior/persons others claim to be) - meaning the king without a shadow is Stannis, and nobody else.

The cloth dragon is Aegon and the third vision is unclear.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:12 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

~~~

The guy with eyes of blue is a false Azor Ahai.  It's Stannis Baratheon.  He is deceiving people into believing he is Azor Ahai.  The ritual at the end of A Game of Thrones already proved that Stannis is not Azor Ahai.  Dany killed her husband, red comet was around, and she hatched her dragon eggs. 

Aegon is not Azor Ahai but it's still possible for him to be Rhaegar's biological son with Elia.  The lie is pretending to be Azor Ahai.  Jon will be the third faker and his lie will also be slain. 

[Lord Lannister]

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.  A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . - ACOK, Dany IV

I think everyone is trying to connect these three snippets into a single event when they could well be separate entities. 

[Egged]

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And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.

Battle Island stands where the fresh water of the Honeywine pours into the salt water of the Whispering Sound.

It is a smoking tower.

Its beacon fires bright against dawn.

Its shadow cuts the city like a sword.

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

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Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

As for the red sword that glows like sunset; sunset is the opposite of dawn. I suspect it refers to Stannis; I have explained before why I believe he will lead the Others through the Black Gate. This is not related to the smoking tower, they are separate events.

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/29/2021 at 12:06 AM, Lord Varys said:

The vision refers to a lie that Daenerys is going to slay - either literally or figuratively (say, by existing and being the savior/persons others claim to be) - meaning the king without a shadow is Stannis, and nobody else.

The cloth dragon is Aegon

yep

 

On 8/29/2021 at 12:06 AM, Lord Varys said:

and the third vision is unclear.

It might be Euron. Who/What else?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

It might be Euron. Who/What else?

Euron is a good guess, since chances are that the three lies will represent different political factions. It is unlikely one vision is Stannis and another Shireen, say, or one Aegon and another Arianne.

However, there is the second vision in the next triplet about the grey-lipped corpse smiling sadly - which, if referring to a Greyjoy, could be referring to a husband of Daenerys, and then Euron would be the likeliest candidate. The first vision there referenced Drogo, depicting her wedding night under the stars, and the third is reference to Jon Snow and their eventual marriage.

The guy could also be Victarion if it is a Greyjoy, but I find it inconceivable to assume she could ever marry him.

[LynnS]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:12 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . 

Don't know.  A smoking tower sounds like an active volcano.  Shadow fire?  R'hllor is called the god of flame and shadow:

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

The woman was the heart of it. Not the Lady Selyse, the other one. The red woman, the servants had named her, afraid to speak her name. "I will speak her name," Cressen told his stone hellhound. "Melisandre. Her." Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Melisandre, whose madness must not be allowed to spread beyond Dragonstone.

Quaithe refers to Moqorro as dark flame: 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Quotations referring to a great beast:

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI

At two hundred and thirty, the shaft was black as pitch, but he could feel the warm air flowing from the tunnel to his left, like the breath of some great beast. He poked about awkwardly with a foot and edged off the ladder. The tunnel was even more cramped than the shaft. Any man of normal size would have had to crawl on hands and knees, but Tyrion was short enough to walk upright. At last, a place made for dwarfs. His boots scuffed softly against the stone. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III

"We curse the rain when it falls upon our heads, yet without it we should starve. The world needs rain … and slaves. You make a face, but it is true. Consider Qarth. In art, music, magic, trade, all that makes us more than beasts, Qarth sits above the rest of mankind as you sit at the summit of this pyramid … but below, in place of bricks, the magnificence that is the Queen of Cities rests upon the backs of slaves. Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved."

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A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

Lannister spearmen in crimson cloaks and lion-crested halfhelms stood along the west wall of the throne room. Tyrell guards in green cloaks faced them from the opposite wall. The chill in the throne room was palpable. Though neither Queen Cersei nor Queen Margaery was amongst them, their presence could be felt poisoning the air, like ghosts at a feast.

Behind the table where the five members of the king's small council were seated, the Iron Throne crouched like some great black beast, its barbs and claws and blades half-shrouded in shadow. Kevan Lannister could feel it at his back, an itch between the shoulder blades. It was easy to imagine old King Aerys perched up there, bleeding from some fresh cut, glowering down. But today the throne was empty. He had seen no reason for Tommen to join them. Kinder to let the boy remain with his mother. The Seven only knew how long mother and son might have together before Cersei's trial … and possibly her execution.

 

[Mister Smikes]

On 8/27/2021 at 8:12 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

So, this section of Daenerys' vision from the HotU really confuses me. Mostly because I can't decide to who the third section refers to,

We have plenty of foreshadowing about the stone dragons of Dragonstone, which are (perhaps) too realistic to be real statues, and which Mel somehow believes can be reawakened from stone by a king's blood sacrifice.  No doubt some will think me too literal, but I don't see why it can't be a dragon re-awakened out of stone.  The Second Dance of the Dragons will need more than 3 dragons, if it is going to be even remotely comparable to the first Dance of the Dragons.

It has been foreshadowed, by analogy to cyvasse, that (f)Aegon and/or Arianne will lose the game of thrones by relying overmuch on the dragon.  For that, they need at least one dragon to rely overmuch on.