Once again: Tower of Joy and House of the Undying debate...

[Mourning Star]

12 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

 

huh. this is pretty interesting. I've read a few peoples theories that quent and faegon were switched and that frog was the real prince who was promised. never gave it any credence because he burned. if it is a you two say... puts him in a similar camp to Jon... yeah, I'm not opposed to this premise, I suppose.

I guess that. begs the question, where has quent gone then?

That may be the easiest question to answer.

The Frog, kissed by fire, becomes the Tattered Prince... Both he and quentyn are notably unremarkable in appearance. 

"My ragged raiment?" The Pentoshi gave a shrug. "A poor thing … yet those tatters fill my foes with fear, and on the battlefield the sight of my rags blowing in the wind emboldens my men more than any banner. And if I want to move unseen, I need only slip it off to become plain and unremarkable." He gestured at the bench across from him. "Sit. I understand you are a prince. Would that I had known."

This theory is also perhaps helped by what we see of the WIndblown in the sample winds chapters.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That said - I strongly argue for the 'slayer of lies' visions to refer to relevant 'metaphysical lies', i.e. lies connected to who the savior/big hero is rather than who has 'the rightful claim' to an iron chair in Westeros. Because, frankly, the latter is completely up to debate. Prophecy and magic cannot give a decisive answer on that one, just as lawyers and maesters and lords can't.

In that sense I'd assume - until we get evidence to the contrary - that the lies Dany is going to slay revolve around the claims that they are the savior, the promised prince, a new Azor Ahai, etc. For Stannis that's pretty much confirmed, but the books already indicate that Aegon might make a similar claim. We know that Rhaegar believed Aegon was the promised prince, and Jon Connington and others might know that, so chances are pretty good that once Westeros is (somewhat) convinced that Aegon is Rhaegar's son and the rightful king they will also tell them Aegon is the prophesied savior who is going to end the cruel winter and deal with the Others

Always tought the same. What I meant there is that at the moment dragons were reborn, Illyrio Mopatys and Varys had to consider the possibility that their little boy, who is not only arbitrary but stubborn as well, at some point will want to ride a dragon, especially if he feels the need to do it (which he more than likely will). He is no Maegor or Aegon the Uncrowned to have to await for some more formidable beasts, and there aren't such bigger dragons either. These people were openly mocked for not yet riding a dragon, but they had their reasons, which Young Griff doesn't have. And we don't know Jaeherys' policy regarding dragonriding, nor was Prince Viserys (son of Aenys) old enough to be in the situation his older brother was in. 

After all, YG has no reason not to try and tame a dragon once the chance is given. And if he is fake in the meaning that he's not a Blackfyre either, then Varys and Illyrio cannot let this happen. They had time and resources to find this much out, and since they're putting their money on this horse, they likely did.  Anything different would be illogical to ever happen in case Aegon has no Targaryen ancestry or at least would be a massive bloop from their side.

The much I and we know about YG doesn't suggest he wouldn't try, or that he knows he shouldn't in case he is a fake. But I think he is a dragon. A mummer's dragon. 

[Mister Smikes]

13 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I guess that. begs the question, where has quent gone then?

Well, if we follow the analogy with Drogon, it may be that Frog is spending quality time with his new friend Viserion in Viserion's new lair.

Viserion's new lair is a fully-stocked pyramid, only recently abandoned by its inhabitants.   It may well be, therefore, that Frog is having a much easier time than Dany has been having, way off in Drogon's new lair.

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The stone beast is not a dragon. 

It's a winged wolf. And when you're imagining that wolf, imagine it properly - it has leatherly wings like a dragon, not featherly like a bird. Jon's parents are a dragon/Targaryen and a direwolf/Stark, so Jon is a winged wolf and a chimera.

[Jaenara Belarys]

42 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

huh. this is pretty interesting. I've read a few peoples theories that quent and faegon were switched and that frog was the real prince who was promised. never gave it any credence because he burned. if it is a you two say... puts him in a similar camp to Jon... yeah, I'm not opposed to this premise, I suppose.

 

Prince Aegon looked Valyrian like his dad, but Prince Quentyn is said to look like Doran  (i.e. Rhoynish features). So I don't lend this theory much credence. 

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Always tought the same. What I meant there is that at the moment dragons were reborn, Illyrio Mopatys and Varys had to consider the possibility that their little boy, who is not only arbitrary but stubborn as well, at some point will want to ride a dragon, especially if he feels the need to do it (which he more than likely will). He is no Maegor or Aegon the Uncrowned to have to await for some more formidable beasts, and there aren't such bigger dragons either. These people were openly mocked for not yet riding a dragon, but they had their reasons, which Young Griff doesn't have. And we don't know Jaeherys' policy regarding dragonriding, nor was Prince Viserys (son of Aenys) old enough to be in the situation his older brother was in. 

After all, YG has no reason not to try and tame a dragon once the chance is given. And if he is fake in the meaning that he's not a Blackfyre either, then Varys and Illyrio cannot let this happen. They had time and resources to find this much out, and since they're putting their money on this horse, they likely did.  Anything different would be illogical to ever happen in case Aegon has no Targaryen ancestry or at least would be a massive bloop from their side.

The much I and we know about YG doesn't suggest he wouldn't try, or that he knows he shouldn't in case he is a fake. But I think he is a dragon. A mummer's dragon. 

That would imply Varys and Illyrio ever bothered to become experts on dragonlore - which they apparently didn't, considering one reason that they recruited Tyrion is that he is a known expert on dragonlore.

If you think about it - the dragons were gone for about 150 years. They were an extinct species, meaning that dragonlore is now an even bigger fringe topic than it was back when the Targaryens still had dragons. Even back then folks didn't really *know for a fact* how the dragonrider thing worked - just as they didn't know a lot of things about dragons (e.g. the whole thing about them possibly changing sex, etc.).

Varys and Illyrio wouldn't be morons or stupid if they thought that their Aegon could bond with one of Dany's hatchlings even if he had no Targaryen blood. The Good Masters of Astapor thought they could control a dragon, too, and back in FaB Queen Rhaena thinks Androw might mount a dragon, that the Lannisters might acquire dragons if she sold them some of her dragon eggs, and Rhaena and Jaehaerys think the Braavosi or the Triarchs of Volantis or other folks in Essos could become dragonlords if they got their hands on the eggs Elissa stole. Nobody thinks that the whole 'blood of the dragon thing' is a die-hard failsafe against the prospect of outsiders becoming dragonriders.

And during the Dance a lot of people with no Targaryen blood tried to mount dragons ... presumably because they thought their blood didn't matter all that much. Even after the Red Sowing folks at Tumbleton tried again with Silverwing after Ulf's death.

Considering the size of Dany's dragons trying to mount one and failing is, at this point, definitely dangerous but not necessarily suicidally dangerous. It could, perhaps, harm Aegon's standing and reputation if he were to try to mount a dragon and fail ... but he doesn't have to do that publicly if he wants to do it.

Also, Aegon being rejected by a dragon doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a Targaryen (descendant). His blood could be diluted to the point that he no longer can become a dragonrider. Alyn Velaryon failed to mount a dragon, too, while his brother Addam succeeded - but this doesn't mean Alyn was less a Velaryon than Addam.

If Aegon is the son of a Lysene whore rather than Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen, then he still could have some dragonlord blood. The Lyseni breed slaves with Valyrian features, and since the prototypical Valyrian looks are essentially the looks of the dragonlords of old - especially the whole silver-golden hair thing - they must all be descended from children the dragonlords and their Lysene noble kin had with the slaves who work in the Lysene brothels.

For all we know, the bloodline of the most desired Lysene whores might be 'purer' than that of Daenerys Targaryen, considering that their masters might always pair them with the finest looking Valyrian specimen they can find.

[Rondo]

The story of Azor Ahai involve needing to sacrifice the one person they love the most. For Jon to be AA, he will need to sacrifice Arya.  I would actually be interested to see Jon become Azor Ahai if it means he will have to kill Arya.  That's not happening though.  Jon is not Azor Ahai and he loves Arya too much.  He would let the world freeze and everyone to die for the sake of Arya.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

15 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The story of Azor Ahai involve needing to sacrifice the one person they love the most. For Jon to be AA, he will need to sacrifice Arya.  I would actually like to see Jon become Azor Ahai if it means he will have to kill Arya.  That's not happening though.  Jon is not Azor Ahai.  

He's already sacrificed Ygritte.

I'm not arguing with you though, but I don't believe that anyone is Azor Ahai other than some sicko who murdered his wife a few thousand years ago.

[Rondo]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

He's already sacrificed Ygritte.

I'm not arguing with you though, but I don't believe that anyone is Azor Ahai other than some sicko who murdered his wife a few thousand years ago.

He didn't have much love for Ygritte.  The sacrifice has to be the person he loves most.  That is Arya.  

It does sound sick but that's the kind of stuff that Mr. Martin has done in the past.  Cringe worthy stuff.

[chrisdaw]

Stannis, Aegon and Euron. Anything else and you're just wasting your time.

[Lord Varys]

Jon didn't 'sacrifice' Ygritte. She attacked the Night's Watch and some other dude killed her.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 9/1/2021 at 7:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

Jon didn't 'sacrifice' Ygritte. She attacked the Night's Watch and some other dude killed her.

At any point before revealing his true colours he could have said 'Hey, lets you and me get the hell out of here' or he could have outright told her what would happen at Castle Black. Maybe she'd have come along, maybe she'd have stabbed him and either decision would have had wider repercussions for Jon, but he had opportunities to protect her from what he knew was coming and he willfully didn't. 

[The Commentator]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:18 AM, Mister Smikes said:

We have plenty of foreshadowing about the stone dragons of Dragonstone, which are (perhaps) too realistic to be real statues, and which Mel somehow believes can be reawakened from stone by a king's blood sacrifice.  No doubt some will think me too literal, but I don't see why it can't be a dragon re-awakened out of stone.  The Second Dance of the Dragons will need more than 3 dragons, if it is going to be even remotely comparable to the first Dance of the Dragons.

It has been foreshadowed, by analogy to cyvasse, that (f)Aegon and/or Arianne will lose the game of thrones by relying overmuch on the dragon.  For that, they need at least one dragon to rely overmuch on.

I think that simply means Arriane will get “Aegon” killed with her impatience.  

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I think that simply means Arriane will get “Aegon” killed with her impatience.  

For that analogy to work Arianne would have to be in charge, and Aegon one of her pieces.  

Also, these are two separate foreshadowings.  (f)Aegon also lost a chess/cyvasse-game by bringing out his queen/dragon too early.  In that scenario (f)Aegon was the chess-player, and the dragon one of his pieces.

In cyvasse, like chess, the only piece that can be considered an alter-ego of the player is the king, since when you lose the king you lose the game.

[James West]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:12 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

So, this section of Daenerys' vision from the HotU really confuses me. Mostly because I can't decide to who the third section refers to, but I'll try. It's hard to think of something new to me at this point regarding ASOIAF that doesn't sound like tinfoil, but I had this idea which I haven't ever saw on the forum (started visiting the forum about 3 years ago).

So the first section: 

This pretty much refers to some Azor Ahai stuff and his Lightbringer, but what's more interesting is that this saviour guy has blue eyes, which in light of what happened to Jon at the end of ADWD, could easily mean he'll have blue eyes (we know how). But at the same time as someone who thinks The Night's King was the good guy and the Last Hero himself, this could describe him as well, which could easily mean the same kinda fate awaits Jon himself? I mean, we know the tale of the Night's King, but could there be unspokenn stuff hidden away in the form of the Last Hero? Nonetheless this sentence states our PTWP will become a king. 

Edit: Young Griff has blue eyes, btw. Could THAT be proof he is the King wielding the sword? 

A section entirely referring to Young Griff in ACOK!!! I might be wrong but didn't we put Young Griff's creation to sometimes later? (I might be wrong, tho, didn't check that) But this section is pretty clear to everyone, the only weird thing is how it's put between two sections refering to Jon: Yes, I think the third one is also talking about Jon. 

So, Jon was supposedly born at the Tower of Joy. Tower, right? Now this specific tower was destroyed and demolished by Eddard Stark himself. There must have been stuff to burn down as well, no? Could that be the smoke coming from our tower? OR, assuming RLJ is in fact true (believe me, it is), could the smoke again be there just for the simbolism of the winged stone beast (basically a dragon) that breathes shadow fire? The PTWP is also said to be born amidst smoke and salt. We've got the smoke at least, right? 

What I basically mean is that this line is another heavy hint that Jon is TPTWP. Of course I don't know why the winged beast breathes SHADOW flame, where the salt remains and why is it a stone beast, but I guess it still makes sense. 

About the winged beast being of stone: Melisandre is talking about waking up the stone dragon, which is again connected go Azor Ahai. But she doesn't talk about waking up dragon/s from stone, just the dragon/s made of stone woking up. Which, thanks to the HotU, is now known to us that it had woken up at a tower, or will. 

And is the Stone Dragon (Jon Snow) Azor Ahai, or the Lightbringer? Can TPTWP be the Lightbringer, and not Azor Ahai? That would fit into the Rhaegar=Azor Ahai and Lyanna=Nissa Nissa theory. If not, then why? I wonder what you people think about this. 

That saviour guy is pretending to be someone he isn't.  All three of the deceitful will be people who are trying to take Dany's identity, i.e. Azor Ahai, birthright, and titles. 

[Amris]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:12 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

So, this section of Daenerys' vision from the HotU really confuses me. Mostly because I can't decide to who the third section refers to, but I'll try.

[snip]

So, Jon was supposedly born at the Tower of Joy. Tower, right? Now this specific tower was destroyed and demolished by Eddard Stark himself. There must have been stuff to burn down as well, no? Could that be the smoke coming from our tower? OR, assuming RLJ is in fact true (believe me, it is), could the smoke again be there just for the simbolism of the winged stone beast (basically a dragon) that breathes shadow fire? The PTWP is also said to be born amidst smoke and salt. We've got the smoke at least, right? 

What I basically mean is that this line is another heavy hint that Jon is TPTWP. Of course I don't know why the winged beast breathes SHADOW flame, where the salt remains and why is it a stone beast, but I guess it still makes sense. 

About the winged beast being of stone: Melisandre is talking about waking up the stone dragon, which is again connected go Azor Ahai. But she doesn't talk about waking up dragon/s from stone, just the dragon/s made of stone woking up. Which, thanks to the HotU, is now known to us that it had woken up at a tower, or will. 

[snip]

The stone beast taking wing from the smoking tower is a reference to Bran.

Short version:

1) Importance of the location

The HotU is the central piece of prophetic riddle in the whole series. Ergo the 'smoking tower has to be a location that is very important to the story, not some random tower we have hardly ever heard off.

The smoking tower is the Broken Tower in Winterfell. Winterfell is one of the two central locations of the story (the other being KL). Thus is very important to the story. It also is end-game material. And the Crypts of Winterfell and their secrets are under the tower.

2) Smoke

The smoke happens during the Burning of Winterfell. It gets mentioned lots of times. (Contrary to for example the burning of the Tower of the Hand in KL by Cersei where GRRM never mentions smoke at all. Strange, eh?)

3) Stone beast

From Bran's first chapter we learn that stone gargoyles adorn the first keep (next to the broken tower). In fact he climbs right along the gargoyles to reach the broken tower before he falls.

4) Takes wing

Gargoyles usually are depicted with wings. During the burning of winterfell chapter we learn that a whole side of the old keep (including its gargoyles) falls down ('takes wing'). Bran & Co then find gargoyles strewn about at the foot of the broken tower. And - to top it off - at the very same spot that Bran had fallen (taken wing) when pushed down by Jaime. GRRM also finds it necessary to remind us of this again in DwD, the Ghost of Winterfell chapter when Theon and Lady Dustin find the gargoyle staring up out of the snow, next to the entrance to the Crypts and we excplicitly get told again 'this is where they found Bran'. Bran also gets dreams of flying.

5) Shadow fire
The shadow fire is all over the place when the gargoyle falls down. That's because the whole of Winterfell is aflame (having been set on fire by Ramsay) and it is night! (See Summer's watching the fire from outside Winterfell at night). Thus the fire casts lots of shadows. This is additionally and explicitly made clear in the metaphorical winged firebreathing snake that Summer sees over Winterfell when the wall of the first keep  crashes down (and the gargoyle 'takes wing'.)

Edit: spelling

[The Commentator]

On 9/3/2021 at 2:09 PM, Mister Smikes said:

For that analogy to work Arianne would have to be in charge, and Aegon one of her pieces.  

Also, these are two separate foreshadowings.  (f)Aegon also lost a chess/cyvasse-game by bringing out his queen/dragon too early.  In that scenario (f)Aegon was the chess-player, and the dragon one of his pieces.

In cyvasse, like chess, the only piece that can be considered an alter-ego of the player is the king, since when you lose the king you lose the game.

Arianne is the more experienced in romance. She will be able to manipulate Aegon.

Aegon lost the Cyvasse game and changed plans. Instead of joining the dragon, he chose to go to Westeros alone. Without Daenerys, her dragons, and her armies. 

 

[Megorova]

49 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arianne is the more experienced in romance. She will be able to manipulate Aegon.

And GRRM even foreshadowed it through The Hedge Knight novel:

"As he ate he watched a painted wooden knight battle a painted wooden dragon. The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; a tall drink of water, with the olive skin and black hair of Dorne. She was slim as a lance with no breasts to speak of, but Dunk liked her face and the way her fingers made the dragon snap and slither at the end of its strings."

fAegon is the mummer's dragon, so Arianne will play him.