Killing Animals For Fun

[Week]

33 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

I’m absolutely going to bring a “purity test” into this. You don’t get to talk about how horrible trophy hunting is if you eat feedlot beef or chickens raised in the worst environment possible.

I’ve been vegetarian by my choice since I was 4 years old. Not that I claim any moral superiority in anything since I’m not a great human being, but eating meat is terribly problematic, IMO, and worse than a few trophy hunters paying $10,000 to shoot some poor animal.

Not claiming moral superiority just dictating what can/can't be said and by whom -- due to their other moral failures. In your eyes, by your definition. Ah. 

The OP is also specifically discussing the emotion and psychology of directly butchering an animal for sport. Once you open it up to indirect, abstract relationships it gets pretty fuzzy. I don't disagree about the evils - and dangers - of factory meat*, but this was an unnecessary jab.

*I'm fortunate enough that I get most of my own meat and fish locally sourced - labelled by farm and fishing boat/method. When I go out to eat, I do lose that control. /Shrug We need laws to be passed not consumer sentiment to change. 

[Fury Resurrected]

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes and no.  I could make a decent case that the animal that is killed via trophy hunting [which personally I despise and think should be illegal] has had a good life until it is shot, it has lived free and natural.  The factory farmed animal, which may or may not in reality be humanely killed, lives a life of unimaginable cruelty from birth to death.  If you gave me the choice of living with freedom of movement until someone put a bullet into my head or living in a tiny cage until someone electrocuted me, um, I'd take the bullet.

I stopped eating veal and pork [hog farming in a stain on fucking humanity] at least 20 years ago, although I do eat beef and chicken.

Poultry farming is incredibly cruel, just as bad, if not worse, than pig farming. Of the typical farm animals for meat, cattle have the least cruel lives because the bad part doesn’t start until they hit the feed lot. 

[Arakan]

7 hours ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

I’m absolutely going to bring a “purity test” into this. You don’t get to talk about how horrible trophy hunting is if you eat feedlot beef or chickens raised in the worst environment possible.

I’ve been vegetarian by my choice since I was 4 years old. Not that I claim any moral superiority in anything since I’m not a great human being, but eating meat is terribly problematic, IMO, and worse than a few trophy hunters paying $10,000 to shoot some poor animal.

What a ridiculous, self-aggrandizing post. No, no you do not claim any moral superiority but that is exactly what you do by pointing out that you‘ve been a vegetarian basically all your life by choice, even since 4, how noble. And you very clearly make a value judgement that eating meat is worse than trophy hunting. So the substinence farmer from Latin America, Africa or the Balkans who raises, kills and eats their own pig, mutt, chicken or cow is according to you worse than the rich fucking asshole trophy hunter from your country (USA) who kills for shit and giggles and some nice adrenaline. 

Got it. You are so typically self-righteous Western. Always going around and judging others for behavior you don’t like but complaining about intolerance when it’s about behavior you approve of. Typical hypocrite and self-righteousness. 

Eating meat is not one bit problematic, eating too much quantities of meat can be, there a discussion can be had. But then again industrial meat production is a rich country problem. Eating too much meat is also mostly a rich country problem (with few exceptions). 

You from the USA are simply in no position to tell a poor farmer from wherever that „eating meat is terribly problematic“. 

[Arakan]

3 hours ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

This is why I pay $6 for truly free range eggs on the rare occasions when I buy eggs.

The absolute lack of self-awareness. The average daily wage in a regions like the Balkans is 15-20 USD. Though at least they don’t have the morally acceptable egg Problem as chicken over there are mostly free range anyway.

[Relic]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

I killed a lot of ants when I was a kid and they didn't do anything to me.

Cool? 

[Arakan]

Let’s look at same facts. Annual meat consumption per capita (source: Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations)

Rich countries (OECD)
USA: 120kg
Australia: 112kg
Canada: 94kg
Italy: 91kg
Germany: 88kg
France: 87kg
UK: 84kg
Spain: 50kg
Japan: 46kg
South Korea: 54kg

So even among the rich countries, the US is (with the exception of Australasia) absolutely outstanding in meat consumption. Almost 50% more than the UK, Germany or France. More than double what the people in Spain, Japan or South Korea consume. 

Random selection of other big countries:
China: 58kg
Russia: 69kg
India: 4kg
Mexico: 64kg
Indonesia 12kg
Pakistan 15kg
Brazil 85kg
Bangladesh 4kg

Africa:
Algeria 20kg
Egypt 26kg
Nigeria 9kg
Ethiopia 9kg
Angola 22kg
South Africa 59kg

Middle East:
Iran 36kg
Turkey 25kg
Saudi Arabia 54kg
Syria 23kg (before civil war)
UAE 74kg

Balkans/Eastern Europe:
Bosnia 28kg
Serbia 45kg
Croatia 66kg
Bulgaria 53kg
Romania 65kg
Ukraine 49kg

Other Asia:
Vietnam 50kg
Malaysia 52kg
Myanmar 32kg

Other Latin America:
Guatemala 29kg
El Salvador 28kg
Honduras 34kg
Colombia 47kg
Peru 21kg
Cuba 49kg
Argentina 98kg

All of the above doesn’t even include efficiency of meat consumption (how much and what of a particular animal is eaten) and what kind of meat (insects are also meat!). Anyway, excessive meat consumption (which is a Problem) is with few exceptions a rich western country problem, especially an US of A problem. And again specific US problems or sins will be projected onto the whole world. Same principle as for CO2 emissions (let’s look at per capita first, shall we). And again the old trope is valid: the Internet is American. I don’t say that for example the situation in Western Europe is great but there are nuances to it. And someone from Central America or North Africa doesn’t need self-righteous Americans to tell them how to live their life.

[Inkdaub]

It cannot be any more clear to me that, yes, there is something very wrong with people who kill animals for fun.  Finding support in that stance for animals being kept in factory farm conditions is absurd.  This argument is often brought up by hunters of all types including trophy hunters and their supporters. 

[Arakan]

2 minutes ago, Inkdaub said:

It cannot be any more clear to me that, yes, there is something very wrong with people who kill animals for fun.  Finding support in that stance for animals being kept in factory farm conditions is absurd.  This argument is often brought up by hunters of all types including trophy hunters and their supporters. 

It’s classical, unreflective whataboutism, of the worst kind. No nuances, no nothing. You eat meat ergo you dare not criticize trophy hunting. And then trophy hunting is also not the same as hunting by a forest ranger / forester who basically takes over the job of now extinct predators (wolves, bears). 

[Darzin]

In the summer I often go out with my friends at low tide  wade out with shovels and buckets and catch crabs. I enjoy catching the crabs, I enjoy eating the crabs, I don't particularly enjoy killing them but it's a necessary part of the process to get to the eating bit. 

I really don't see why that makes it hypocritical for me criticize someone shooting an elephant so they can mount it's head on a wall. Those things are so far apart as to be apples and oranges.

I also don't think enjoying an activity that humans have participated insince the dawn of time, catching and eating animals makes me a sociopath but YMV. 

[Relic]

48 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I really don't see why that makes it hypocritical for me criticize someone shooting an elephant so they can mount it's head on a wall. Those things are so far apart as to be apples and oranges.

How do you fail to see the hypocrisy in that? It's literally, like, right there. 

Also, just because you might be a bit of a hypocrite doesn't mean you are wrong to criticize the asshole who shoots an elk for its horns.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Cool? 

It was a joke you Jainist.

[Relic]

Just now, DMC said:

It was a joke you Jainist.

What is humor? 

[Arakan]

12 minutes ago, Relic said:

How do you fail to see the hypocrisy in that? It's literally, like, right there. 

Also, just because you might be a bit of a hypocrite doesn't mean you are wrong to criticize the asshole who shoots an elk for its horns.

Sorry but what? One is killing to eat the animal. Food. Heard of that word? The other is killing for ego and the thrill.

 

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Sorry but what? One is killing to eat the animal. Food. Heard of that word? The other is killing for ego and the thrill.

 

Eating for pleasure, not out of necessity. He literally admits to it. He kills the crabs because they taste good. Even feels some guilt about it, but not enough to not murder them. So yeah, its a bit hypocritical. Accept it, embrace it, move on. Cuz yes, trophy hunting is about 10x worse. 

[Arakan]

Just now, Relic said:

Eating for pleasure, not out of necessity. He literally admits to it. So yeah, its a bit hypocritical. Accept it, embrace it, move on. Cuz yes, trophy hunting is about 10x worse. 

Ok, this I can get behind. Important is: there are many shades of grey in between. What I really find disgusting is the meat cherry picking in the West. Not even 50% of the meat (in average) is processed as food. I remember times when my grandfather and grandmother processed everything, literally everything. Nothing was thrown away. 

[Darzin]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

Eating for pleasure, not out of necessity. He literally admits to it. He kills the crabs because they taste good. Even feels some guilt about it, but not enough to not murder them. So yeah, its a bit hypocritical. Accept it, embrace it, move on. Cuz yes, trophy hunting is about 10x worse. 

Because the end purpose is different and one is a waste. I wouldn't criticize someone for buying a computer to play games. But I would criticize someone who buys a computer to light it on fire and watch it burn. Both are for pleasure but one is wasteful. 

If you want to criticize me for killing animals that's fair and we can talk about that but regarding catching and killing for food, vs trophies I think waste is the core difference. 

[Relic]

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

Ok, this I can get behind. Important is: there are many shades of grey in between. What I really find disgusting is the meat cherry picking in the West. Not even 50% of the meat (in average) is processed as food. I remember times when my grandfather and grandmother processed everything, literally everything. Nothing was thrown away. 

Yes, there are certainly levels. We tend to forget that, and it makes us unable to be realistic with ourselves, and our assessment of our own actions. 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Because the end purpose is different and one is a waste.

Can be argued that plenty of the crab is wasted too. And that's before you digest the meat. 

 

Anyway, i think its important to admit these things to yourself. I struggle with similar moral quandaries. But we can also disagree here, and that's fine too. 

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Yes, there are certainly levels. We tend to forget that, and it makes us unable to be realistic with ourselves, and our assessment of our own actions. 

A lot of today’s specialities were basically „residual meat“ for the poor. Sülze (aspic?), Blutwurst (blood sausage), Grütze (including cooked brain) etc. I respect this. Everything was used, nothing thrown away. Nowadays chicken are raised for breast filet alone…

[Arakan]

13 minutes ago, Relic said:

Can be argued that plenty of the crab is wasted too. And that's before you digest the meat. 

 

Anyway, i think its important to admit these things to yourself. I struggle with similar moral quandaries. But we can also disagree here, and that's fine too. 

Again, good approach. But it’s also important to know who criticizes who. Someone from the West who can buy eggs for 6 USD a piece, i.e. someone with an abundance of food choices (I mean it’s crazy, I can go to the supermarket and choose between 10 variants of olive oil) has absolutely no right, neither moral nor rational, to criticize the food choice of people who have much less possibilities to be picky.

This is a big problem of this forum in general. Western people in general (myself included), US people in special project themselves onto others or assume at least subconsciously that everyone is from the US or the West. It happens all the time.