Killing Animals For Fun

[Darzin]

17 minutes ago, Relic said:

Anyway, i think its important to admit these things to yourself. I struggle with similar moral quandaries. But we can also disagree here, and that's fine too. 

Sure, that is fair. And I'll admit I do feel a little bad killing the crabs, which is hypocritical in the sense that I don't feel bad about eating a burger. But I think it's important to do it. I'm a bit of the Ned Stark school of meat eating if you can't kill and butcher an animal you have no business eating meat. When I was eleven at boy scouts camp, we had an activity where we had to butcher our own rabbits. It was an important lesson and it's something that has stuck with me.

I don't really mind vegetarians getting mad about hunting, but I have a lot urbanite relatives who view hunting as barbaric and are disgusted with the practice even as they happily chow down on burgers and pork chops. I should probably butcher an animal again one of these days instead of relying on an experience when I was eleven, but it's an unpleasant process which I don't enjoy and no one will judge me for not doing it except me, but I do morally feel it's important to bear the cost of what meat is. 

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I don't really mind vegetarians getting mad about hunting, but I have a lot urbanite relatives who view hunting as barbaric and are disgusted with the practice even as they happily chow down on burgers and prork chops.  

Yeah, a person who is critical of another for hunting (and eating) while consuming processed meat doesn't really have a pot to poop in, so to speak. Usually those people can be reasoned with, given time. Trophy hunters, on the other hand, well...fuck them. 

 

[Relic]

9 minutes ago, Arakan said:

has absolutely no right, neither moral nor rational, to criticize the food choice of people who have much less possibilities to be picky.

Sad, and true.

[Arakan]

20 minutes ago, Relic said:

Sad, and true.

The internet connects which is good. And the vast majority of people even in the poorest countries have some kind of connectivity, which is also good. But this often leads us to forget how poor a vast portion of humanity still is. Even within Europe (which I think you traveled a lot) you can see vast differences in wealth, only a few hundred kilometers apart. I have relatives in Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, mostly rural. Those people have to fight daily, even for simple things like basic medicine (or basic from my perspective). They have very hard lives, and if they can’t work, they die (no exaggeration). They mostly eat beans, bread, vegetables, dairy products, cheese. Meat is a luxury, maybe a chicken once per week. And on holidays like Christmas or Easter they eat suckling pig or mutt from the pit. When guests come they will serve bacon because it’s rare and valuable. 

It rubs me completely the wrong way when those people, who raise and kill and eat their own lifestock (and that seldom enough) are morally criticized by rich western dudes or women, don’t care, or put into the same category as trophy hunters, also mostly western types. Spare me the fake enlightenment, it more often than not just shows the lack of knowing or understanding or even trying to know and understand the world. And it shows complete lack of empathy. 

[Relic]

5 minutes ago, Arakan said:

 But this often leads us to forget how poor a vast portion of humanity still is.

I hear everything you said above, and totally agree. That was one of the reasons we started a travel website, actually. We wanted Westerners, and especially Americans, to travel more and see what the world was REALLY like. I was as ignorant as the majority of Americans are now until I spent 2 months in Peru in 2010. That time there changed my perceptions of the world drastically. I can go on and on, but i'll spare everyone the monologue. 

[Arakan]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

I hear everything you said above, and totally agree. That was one of the reasons we started a travel website, actually. We wanted Westerners, and especially Americans, to travel more and see what the world was REALLY like. I was as ignorant as the majority of Americans are now until I spent 2 months in Peru in 2010. That time there changed my perceptions of the world drastically. I can go on and on, but i'll spare everyone the monologue. 

I think your stories a very important and they are worth to be told! We in the West so often are ignorant about how life is a constant battle for survival, a constant struggle for so many people. We are ignorant not out of ill will but because no one taught us perspective. The only reason I am self-aware is because of family, otherwise there is a big chance I would be as ignorant. I mean it’s heartbreaking to see the man of your cousin slowly dying, first turning blind, then weaker and weaker with each day, because of „ordinary“ diabetes and because they simply cannot afford the medicine. And then you realize that this person would live basically a normal, good life if he lived 500km north-weast in Austria or Bavaria. He would get the prescription from the doctor, insurance pays and that’s it. It really opens the eyes what privileged life I have, thanks to the place I was born.

Therefore people like you are very important, you made an effort, and you can put things into perspective and only increase empathy beyond borders. And when this world needs anything, it’s more compassion and empathy.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

Anyway, i think its important to admit these things to yourself. I struggle with similar moral quandaries.

A quote from The Russia House often comes to my mind when thinking about all these tricky moral problems: "You have to think like a hero merely to behave like a decent human being."

[Pebble thats Stubby]

When took a trip to South Africa the Gamekeeper / local guide said that trophy hunting is a more complex issue that it first looks.

 

he said there are basically 2 types of places that will offer this service. 

1. they will raise lots of extra desired trophy animals keep them in small cages / enclosures.  often use the very young as petting zoo's animals and tourist photo ops.  When the animals get big enough to provide a thrill and there is a paying hunter, they are released into what the hunter thinks is the large game reserve to be shot.  often these animals as have been raised in captivity do not have all the skills needed to survive long after being released even without being hunted.   He was very critical of this type of hunting.

2. the other type of place was like what he would run.  Sometimes the game reserves while covering a large area still offer limited space as they are fenced.  sometimes the population of some of the animals gets too high for the area to support and he is required to cull some to ensure the healthy balance of prey/predator/plants.  what he often does then is take a paying hunter with him, the game keeper identifies the old/injured or sick animals and basically tells the hunter which one to shoot.  they get 1 shot and if they don't kill it straight away with that one shot the game keeper will shoot it himself. the money raised by these hunter tourists is then used on conservation projects, anti poaching and shutting down the raise to be petting zoo and raised to be killed places.

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Arakan said:

China: 58kg

Population

 

4 hours ago, Arakan said:

India: 4kg

Popu- wait, what!? are you sure it's not 40 something?

[Derfel Cadarn]

30 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

When took a trip to South Africa the Gamekeeper / local guide said that trophy hunting is a more complex issue that it first looks.

 

he said there are basically 2 types of places that will offer this service. 

1. they will raise lots of extra desired trophy animals keep them in small cages / enclosures.  often use the very young as petting zoo's animals and tourist photo ops.  When the animals get big enough to provide a thrill and there is a paying hunter, they are released into what the hunter thinks is the large game reserve to be shot.  often these animals as have been raised in captivity do not have all the skills needed to survive long after being released even without being hunted.   He was very critical of this type of hunting.

2. the other type of place was like what he would run.  Sometimes the game reserves while covering a large area still offer limited space as they are fenced.  sometimes the population of some of the animals gets too high for the area to support and he is required to cull some to ensure the healthy balance of prey/predator/plants.  what he often does then is take a paying hunter with him, the game keeper identifies the old/injured or sick animals and basically tells the hunter which one to shoot.  they get 1 shot and if they don't kill it straight away with that one shot the game keeper will shoot it himself. the money raised by these hunter tourists is then used on conservation projects, anti poaching and shutting down the raise to be petting zoo and raised to be killed places.

This is pretty much what I learned while volunteering in a South Africa Game reserve 15 years ago. Hunting was necessary at times to maintain population numbers in a closed environment. 

We spent a lot of time monitoring damage caused to trees by elephants, as they lack the roaming space they would have had in the wild. If necessary, they cull them.
Years before, there had been a reserve in Botswanna funded by Save the Elephants or similar, not allowed to cull the elephants. The elephant population grew too large for the reserve, all the vegetation got destroyed, so the elephants and other animals starved.

Unfortunately while the staff may not be fans of trophy hunting, the reserves need a lot of money to run. I remmeber the guy I worked with looking at a stuffed leopard in the guest lodge and saying it broke his heart seeing it.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Sometimes the game reserves while covering a large area still offer limited space as they are fenced. 

Hunting anything in a fenced in area is complete and utter bullshit. It's just a controlled kill zone. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I'm curious, do people feel the same way about trophy fishing? It's super common where I'm from in lakes, and frankly, a part of me would like to go deep sea fishing again for a swordfish, and if I did so and caught one I may very well want to stuff it and put it on a wall. At the same time I could never imagine killing a large deer just to cut its head off and mount it.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm curious, do people feel the same way about trophy fishing? It's super common where I'm from in lakes, and frankly, a part of me would like to go deep sea fishing again for a swordfish, and if I did so and caught one I may very well want to stuff it and put it on a wall. At the same time I could never imagine killing a large deer just to cut its head off and mount it.

Yes. What a waste.

[Larry of the Lawn]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm curious, do people feel the same way about trophy fishing? It's super common where I'm from in lakes, and frankly, a part of me would like to go deep sea fishing again for a swordfish, and if I did so and caught one I may very well want to stuff it and put it on a wall. At the same time I could never imagine killing a large deer just to cut its head off and mount it.

For most of my life fishing was one of life's great joys.  I was never into trophy fishing at all though, I liked learning and thinking about what was going on underwater, the whole ecosystem, how to understand what the fish would do and feed on in different conditions, and then eating what you caught.  For awhile i was into catch and release bass fishing, but that has zero appeal for me now.  I only fish for stuff I'm going to eat, and only use rigs that are unlikely to maim a fish i can't keep.  

Most of the time I want to go fishing now I just grab the mask and snorkel and head up to the creek or lake and see how close I can get to them.  There's a waterfall on the MA/NY line where the native brook trout are so used to people swimming and hanging out that you can get within a couple feet of them.  The colors are trippy as hell.  I'm having more fun doing that than I do fishing for the dinner pot.

I don't understand trophy hunting or fishing at all.  And I says this as someone who used to hunt and still ocassionally fishes for food.

 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

50 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hunting anything in a fenced in area is complete and utter bullshit. It's just a controlled kill zone. 

Humans and wild animals don't normally mix well.  thus most National Parks in South Africa (and I'm assuming other places) have fences to stop the lions walking into towns and villages and eating people and to attempt to keep the poachers out.

 

Humans have a nasty habit of taking habitat away from animals.  sometimes this areas get too small from the remaining animals you either have to relocate animals in which case you need somewhere for them to go or cull them.  Yes a much better option would be less humans and let the animals have more of the planet but we all know thats not gonna happen in our lifetimes.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

For most of my life fishing was one of life's great joys.  I was never into trophy fishing at all though, I liked learning and thinking about what was going on underwater, the whole ecosystem, how to understand what the fish would do and feed on in different conditions, and then eating what you caught.  For awhile i was into catch and release bass fishing, but that has zero appeal for me now.  I only fish for stuff I'm going to eat, and only use rigs that are unlikely to maim a fish i can't keep.  

Most of the time I want to go fishing now I just grab the mask and snorkel and head up to the creek or lake and see how close I can get to them.  There's a waterfall on the MA/NY line where the native brook trout are so used to people swimming and hanging out that you can get within a couple feet of them.  The colors are trippy as hell.  I'm having more fun doing that than I do fishing for the dinner pot.

I don't understand trophy hunting or fishing at all.  And I says this as someone who used to hunt and still ocassionally fishes for food.

 

But you have to realize you're the exception. People don't keep most of what they catch, and in many instances that's because the law says you can't. 

17 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Humans and wild animals don't normally mix well.  thus most National Parks in South Africa (and I'm assuming other places) have fences to stop the lions walking into towns and villages and eating people and to attempt to keep the poachers out.

 

Humans have a nasty habit of taking habitat away from animals.  sometimes this areas get too small from the remaining animals you either have to relocate animals in which case you need somewhere for them to go or cull them.  Yes a much better option would be less humans and let the animals have more of the planet but we all know thats not gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Not really what I was getting at. A lot of rich folks like to go hunting at locations that are fenced in because you're all but guaranteed to kill something. I think the most disturbing example is where you can sit in a crow's nest of sorts right above a feeder that serves to lure animals.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But you have to realize you're the exception. People don't keep most of what they catch, and in many instances that's because the law says you can't. 

Not really what I was getting at. A lot of rich folks like to go hunting at locations that are fenced in because you're all but guaranteed to kill something. I think the most disturbing example is where you can sit in a crow's nest of sorts right above a feeder that serves to lure animals.

yeah.  thats what the game keeper was talking about with the bred for petting zoo to small enclosure thing to be shot.

 

what he does is basically culling to get to healthy populations but taking on a rich tourist who wants to shoot something then having strict controls over what that tourist shoots.   it still sucks but at least the money is going in the right place and its the old /sick animals that are culled.  its still an enclosed area, just a much much bigger one.

[Derfel Cadarn]

When I was in Sout Africa, there was mention of an ambtious proposal to instead of fencing off the animals, to fence off towns and cities, but nothing came of it 

[HoodedCrow]

Wealthier people in South Africa have enclosures. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

Might be worth noting, that vegans and people actually raising livestock ethically themselves aside, all of us are bound to be pretty hypocritical on an issue like this*.

Consuming animals and their products especially on a factory scale, is going to be bad for the environment and have lots of ethical issues about animal care.  

And while it's easy to dunk on each other with gotcha moments, it doesn't take much when it comes to food consumption to recognize a spectrum of good to bad practices.  Props to any vegans and vegetarians out there, I am working on going full vegetarian but still doing a couple of meat / fish dishes a week.  

Some other advice I am happy to give, but have too much fun being a petty asshole to follow: it might be helpful to recognize that while society is the sum of our choices, we are also all heavily influenced by geography and culture and that most people aren't going to be saints on ethical food consumption all the time.  Glass houses and all.  It's probably ok to have commentary on this without taking shots at someone just because their country is absolutely shitty.