Daenerys, Viserys, and Syrio

[Darth Sidious]

Syrio is dead. We will never know if he knew Daenerys and Viserys. It is possible. Think about this. Darry and his companions saved the lives of the heirs to Westeros. They gave up their homes and lives to save the children. Syrio gave up his life to help Arya escape.  Darry and Syrio are alike.  They all lived in the same city. Would you say the chances are better than even that Syrio knew the Princess and her brother?

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Syrio is dead. We will never know if he knew Daenerys and Viserys. It is possible. Think about this. Darry and his companions saved the lives of the heirs to Westeros. They gave up their homes and lives to save the children. Syrio gave up his life to help Arya escape.  Darry and Syrio are alike.  They all lived in the same city. Would you say the chances are better than even that Syrio knew the Princess and her brother?

Probably not.....Ser Willem probably would've wanted to keep a low profile, and it's likely the only time that Syrio would meet them is at a formal occasion probably? A ball....

[Darth Sidious]

Acquainted. I meant he had met them and was introduced. 

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Darry and Syrio are alike.  They all lived in the same city. 

In my opinion could be that both Syrio and Willem Darry were Faceless Men. Syrio is probably also Jaqen, Alchemist and fakePate, and Willem Darry was a "mask"-persona, in a sense that the real Willem Darry was killed by a Faceless Man, who then took his face and identity.

And before this FM took Willem's face, he was wearing Jonothor Darry's face (Willem's brother, who was a Kingsguard), and at the Trident the fakeJonothor killed someone on the battlefield, took off Jonothor's face and put it on the corpse. That way everyone thought that a Kingsguard Jonothor Darry died together with Rhaegar at the Trident. And the Faceless Man, who previously was wearing Jonothor's face, went to Jonothor's brother, Willem Darry, killed him, took his face and then went to Dragonstone, took Dany and Viserys and brought them to Braavos to his master, the Sealord (because the Sealords of Braavos are the leaders of the Faceless Men).

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Syrio is dead. We will never know if he knew Daenerys and Viserys. It is possible. Think about this. Darry and his companions saved the lives of the heirs to Westeros. They gave up their homes and lives to save the children. Syrio gave up his life to help Arya escape.  Darry and Syrio are alike.  They all lived in the same city. Would you say the chances are better than even that Syrio knew the Princess and her brother?

I guess it would depend on when Syrio became First Sword. According to the official history, Dany fled Dragonstone sometime between one and two years old, and then fled Braavos at five. So that would be roughly between 284 and 286.

I don't recall Arya describing Syrio as a particularly young man or a particularly old man, so he may have already served as FS before she arrived, or he may not have begun his service until after she left. And when he was not FS, he was just an ordinary bravo, which I doubt is enough cachet for him to encounter an exiled prince and princess living in cognito.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Not sure what the official role of the first sword of Braavos is, but if he spent a lot of time with the Sealord he probably would have at least seen the Targ exiles even if he didn't have much in the way of personal dealings with them. He certainly didn't pick up any of their politics or disdain for the 'usurper's dogs'

[The Commentator]

Martin intentionally limits the information for his readers. We would not know unless Syrio either talks about the children or he had his own POV. He saw them at some time during his service at the Sealord’s. I would think it was a formal meeting. The occasion would never allow for conversation. He was a professional bodyguard and Viserys was the king of Westeros.  

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 9/2/2021 at 2:23 PM, Megorova said:

In my opinion could be that both Syrio and Willem Darry were Faceless Men. Syrio is probably also Jaqen, Alchemist and fakePate, and Willem Darry was a "mask"-persona, in a sense that the real Willem Darry was killed by a Faceless Man, who then took his face and identity.

And before this FM took Willem's face, he was wearing Jonothor Darry's face (Willem's brother, who was a Kingsguard), and at the Trident the fakeJonothor killed someone on the battlefield, took off Jonothor's face and put it on the corpse. That way everyone thought that a Kingsguard Jonothor Darry died together with Rhaegar at the Trident. And the Faceless Man, who previously was wearing Jonothor's face, went to Jonothor's brother, Willem Darry, killed him, took his face and then went to Dragonstone, took Dany and Viserys and brought them to Braavos to his master, the Sealord (because the Sealords of Braavos are the leaders of the Faceless Men).

Why would the FM do all that?

[Jaenara Belarys]

15 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Why would the FM do all that?

IDK. No offense to you, @Megorova.....but it seems like most of your theories are....crackpot. Like she says, why would the Faceless Men do that? There's no real motivation for killing off Daenerys (Daughter of Jaehaerys, I seem to recall reading your theory and seeing that you said that the kitchen girl poisoned her or something) or any other Targaryen. 

[Quoth the raven,]

The chance of Eddard happening to find a swordmaster from Braavos at the moment he needed one was suspicious.  I could see communications going back and forth across the Narrow Sea between Ser Willem, Eddard, Sealord, and Lemore.  Eddard would be appraised of the status of the Targaryen royals.  Yeah, I think Ashara is still alive and is now called Lemore.  I would say Eddard was making sure to keep Viserys from building support.  He protects his buddy's rule and avoids the need to assassinate the real heir, Viserys.  But the Sealord, Ser Willem, and Lemore wanted more.  They wanted to return Westeros back to the Targaryens and kept that from Eddard.  Robert was going to die.  Cersei got ahead of them though.

Syrio met the Targaryen royals?  Yes he did. 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No offense to you, @Megorova.....but it seems like most of your theories are....crackpot.

No, they are not. You'll see later. When (if? ) GRRM will release the remaining books.

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Like she says, why would the Faceless Men do that?

+

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Why would the FM do all that?

I'm not sure what exactly were their plans concerning Dany and Viserys, but I think that it was somehow connected to those three dragon eggs that belonged to the Sealord of Braavos. I think that he was hoping that D&V will be able to hatch those eggs. In my opinion it's not a mere coincidence that "Willem Darry" "died" in 289, because that same year Varys and Illyrio brought fAegon to Jon Connington. So my guess is that maybe one of those eggs was kept for those five years at Illyrio's mansion, and the other two were at the house with the red door (where lived D&V). And when all three of them failed to hatch those eggs, the Sealord, Varys and Illyrio made a new plan. Though I'm not sure why (for what reason) and when exactly did the Faceless Men and the Blackfyres (Varys is a Blackfyre) conspired together, whether it was a prolonged partnership or a one time deal that didn't worked and thus afterwards they went separate ways.

In my opinion the Burning of the Summerhall was also orchestrated by joined efforts of the Blackfyres and the Faceless Men. That time the Blackfyres were represented by Maelys the Monstrous (Varys and Illyrio's wife Sera are Maelys' children). Johanna Swann (great-grandmother of Daemon I Blackfyre) also had a partnership with the Faceless Men - she gave them money that she stole from the Rogare Bank, and they left Targaryen court in her hands for 50 years, and in the span of that time they weren't killing any Targaryens. So there were other cases in 7K's history, aside from the Summerhall's Burning, when the Blackfyres conspired together with the Faceless Men. Though unknowingly to Varys and Illyrio, the Faceless Men also killed Sera, by causing an epidemy at Pentos. The ship that brought infected rats to Pentos, was from Braavos. And it's not a coincidence, it's a hint from GRRM.

There's a huge secret subplot going on in ASOIAF. A Braavosi Conspiracy. Though GRRM wrote it in such a convoluted manner, that even I can't figure out how to untangle it. I figured out that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar, that Septa Lemore's real name is Jeyne Swann and that she is the Perfumed Seneschal, that fAegon's parents are Barristan Selmy and Lemore, that Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys was the same person, that Old Nan's real name is Alysanne Stark, that the Bastard of Harrenhal is a common ancestor of Catelyn Tully and Petyr Baelish, etc. But even I can't figure out what exactly is it that GRRM is intending to do thru the Faceless Men, and what are their final goal. Though I did figured out some minor parts of the Braavosi Conspiracy.

I'm sure that the Faceless Men infiltrated Targaryen court shortly after the Doom of Valyria. I'm sure that when Targaryens migrated from Dragonstone to Westeros, the Faceless Men went with them. I'm sure that the Faceless Men infiltrated the Kingsguard, and that in every set of KG there was at least one Faceless Man. As the Kingsguards, using their proximity and unrestricted access to the Kings and their families, those Faceless Men in the span of the last 300 years have killed 100-200+ Targaryens and their blood-relatives. I can name approximately 40 or so of them, and the other 60-160+ I can't name because their names weren't revealed yet by GRRM. It's all those people that died at the Summerhall.  

You may think that I'm exaggerating by claiming that at the Summerhall could have died 100+ Targaryens and their blood-relatives, thus let's count.

Spoiler

We know that Egg had two sisters - Rhae and Daella - who were close in age to him.

For example, by the time of his death, Aerys II was aged 39 and he had fathered 9 children. Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had 13 children. Maekar I had 6 children. His father, Daeron II, had 4. Egg had 5. Viserys II's half-sister, Rhaena, had 6 daughters. Princess Elaena had 7 children. Rhaenyra had 6.

Jaehaerys II became a grandfather when he was aged 39. Viserys II became a father when he was 13 years old, and he became a grandfather when he was 31. Thru Aegon IV, Viserys had 20+ grandchildren (Daeron II, Daenerys <- besides those two Queen Naerys gave birth to 3 more children; Daemon I Blackfyre, Viserys Plumm, Ambrose Butterwell, Bittersteel, Bloodraven, Shiera, Mya, Gwenys, Jeyne Lothston, the Bastard of Harrenhal, 3 Otheryses, 4 children of Merry Meg, etc.). He died aged 50.

At the time of his death at the Summerhall, Egg was 59 years old.

Each of Egg's sisters could have had 3-13+ children. Daella was born in 199, so if for example she got married aged 16, and by the time she was 17, she already had a child. If that child also later married aged 16 and shortly after that also had a child, then Daella would have became a grandmother at the age 34. If Daella's grandchild married aged 16 and by the age 17 became a parent, then Daella would have became a great-grandmother by the age 51. At the time of the Summerhall's Burning Daella was 60 years old. And her sister Rhae was 50-58.

So, considering that Targaryens were very fertile (Rhaella - 9 children, Alysanne - 13, Rhaena - 6, Rhaenyra - 6, Elaena - 7, etc.), it's likely that by the time of the Summerhall's Burning, Rhae&Daella and their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren added 100+ Targaryens to their family, including those people who had a different last-name, though also were dragonseeds and had descended from Targaryens.

Now there's also Penroses and Plumms (descendants of Elaena Targaryen); Hightowers, Daynes, Arryns and Dondarrions (descendants of Rhaena Targaryen's 6 daughters); there's also Martells and their bannermen (descendants of Daenerys Targaryen and her half-Martell children that married with various Dornish Houses); there's Baratheons and their bannermen who were bloodrelated to them thru previous marriages. And so on. And because all those people were bloodrelated to Targaryens, they were invited to be present at the Summerhall, when Aegon V was attempting to hatch there dragon eggs.

If, for example, both Rhae and Daella had 4 children and each of those children also had 4 childen (in their case having 4 children seems like a viable number because their paternal grandfather, Daeron II, had 4 sons, and their father, Maekar, also had 4 sons), then by 259 AC when both of them were grandmothers, they could have added into the flock 20 dragonseeds each (4 children and 16 grandchildren). So if Egg invited to Summerhall his sisters and their families, then including Rhae and Daella, at the Summerhall died 42 dragonseeds. <- and that's without inclusion of Egg and his children and other Targaryens that were also present there, people like second and third cousins of the royal family - even though they had different non-Targaryens last-names, nevertheless they were dragonseeds and descendants of Targaryens. There was 100-200 or maybe even more people like that present at court when the Summerhall burned. Thus if the tragedy at Summerhall was orchestrated by the Faceless Men, then in addition to those 40+ Targaryens that I can name, there were also 100-200 of those that for now are unnamed by GRRM).

Now, about those 40+ that I can name, the list of Targaryens that were killed by the Faceless Men:

1. Aenys I.

2. Maegor the Cruel.

3.-13. 11 children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, excluding Saera and Vaegon.

14. Helaena (wife of Aegon II).

15. Aegon II.

16. Jaehaera (daughter of Aegon II and Helaena).

17. Aegon (son of Baelon and Alyssa Targaryen, grandson of Jaehaeys and Alysanne).

18.-19. Son of Aemma Arryn who died in the cradle, and her son Baelon, and her multiple miscarriages.

20. Maelor (son of Aegon II). The Kingsguard who took him was a Faceless Man. During the Dance of the Dragons one of the Kingsguard (who was also a Faceless Man) made an attempt to steal one dragon egg. The Sealord needed that egg and a Targaryen-child to hatch it, that's why they took Maelor.

21. Baelor Breakspear.

22. Daeron II.

23.-26. Valarr, Matarys and Valarr's two sons.

27. Aerys I.

28. Rhaegel (supposedly choked on a lamprey pie, but actually was poisoned with Strangler).

29.-30. Aelor and Aelora.

31. Daeron (Egg's son).

32. Daeron (Maekar's son).

33. Aerion Brightflame.

34. Maekar.

35. Duncan the Small.

36. Duncan the Tall (his parents were Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre, so he was also a dragonseed and he also died because of the Faceless Men who caused the Summerhall's Burning together with the Blackfyres).

37. Jaehaerys II (poisoned with Strangler).

38.-41. Shaena, Daeron, Aegon, Jaehaerys (children of Queen Rhaella and Aegon II, and the Faceless Men additionally caused Rhaella to have 4 miscarriages).

42. Steffon Baratheon, his wife and all those people that were with them on that ship (they were all killed by Patchface, who is a Faceless Man. He also infected Shireen with greyscale. Probably by placing into her cradle a toy taken from an infected child).

 

Now, why they did all of that? Why the Faceless Men infiltrated Targaryen court, for years impersonated Kingsguards, and were killing scores of dragonseeds? For the same reason why they caused the Doom of Valyria - to reduce population of dragonseeds/dragonriders.

Aegon with his three dragons conquered Westeros, so the Sealords weren't going to wait for when the Targaryens will turn their interests back to conquering the rest of the world (like what were doing their Valyrian ancestors prior the Doom).

Though, their intentions are not to kill all Targaryens/all dragonseeds. For some reason they kept Dany and Viserys alive. And they didn't killed Robert Baratheon, and there are many other people with the blood of the dragon still present at Westeros, but the Faceless Men let them live. That's because their motives are complex. So I'll just wait for GRRM's explanation on this topic in the following books.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Sweet Jesus. You do realize most or all could have simply been natural deaths, correct? ie Aemma's son Baelon. Also, if their goal was to limit the amount of dragonriders, then why weren't they knocking off Targaryens like crazy prior to the Dance? And after all the dragons died, there's not much point in knocking off Targaryens, since they don't have dragons. But you have your opinions and I have mine, so let's agree to disagree so I don't have to produce a billion pages of arguments. 

[The hairy bear]

19 hours ago, Megorova said:

Now, about those 40+ that I can name, the list of Targaryens that were killed by the Faceless Men:
 

You forgot JFK, Marylin Monroe, and the real Paul McCartney. (all of them secret Targs)

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sweet Jesus. You do realize most or all could have simply been natural deaths, correct? ie Aemma's son Baelon. Also, if their goal was to limit the amount of dragonriders, then why weren't they knocking off Targaryens like crazy prior to the Dance? And after all the dragons died, there's not much point in knocking off Targaryens, since they don't have dragons. But you have your opinions and I have mine, so let's agree to disagree so I don't have to produce a billion pages of arguments. 

Ok, let's agree to disagree.

Though, if in the following books it will be revealed that there were Faceless Men amongst Kingsguards, and that for years they were killing Targaryens (including little babies), then you will own me an apology for saying

On 9/5/2021 at 4:29 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

most of your theories are....crackpot

[Darth Sidious]

Syrio was not young. He was a man in his middle years. 45-50 is my guess.  

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 9/6/2021 at 6:03 AM, Megorova said:

Though, if in the following books it will be revealed that there were Faceless Men amongst Kingsguards, and that for years they were killing Targaryens (including little babies), then you will own me an apology for saying

 

Thou has me word, I shalt give you an apology IF you are proved to be correct. (Fookin' Faceless Men. Killing gorydamn babies)

[Daeron the Daring]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:48 PM, Megorova said:

Now, why they did all of that? Why the Faceless Men infiltrated Targaryen court, for years impersonated Kingsguards, and were killing scores of dragonseeds? For the same reason why they caused the Doom of Valyria - to reduce population of dragonseeds/dragonriders.

You do realise that is bullshit, right? If they wanted Targaryen ancestry not to spread, people like Daemon Targaryen, Aegon IV or Daeron the Drunken would've died waaay younger. The moment it became clear they arw whoremongers. They were fucking whores day and night. Aegon IV alone might have had more than a hundred (if nof a couple hundred) bastards. Aegon II as well would've been like him, but he died young. Yet, he easily could've left just as much bastards around as Robert did. And why would they murder 11 children of Alysanne and Jaehaerys instead of one of them? Dude, this just doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is the mass murders you blame the FM for. They are known to not kill anyone in their process. And they don't. And even if they have their own ambitions (which I think they really have), that doesn't mean they are willing to overrule their 'doctrines', which doesn't really allow them to kill anyone. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 9/5/2021 at 8:48 AM, Megorova said:

Aegon with his three dragons conquered Westeros, so the Sealords weren't going to wait for when the Targaryens will turn their interests back to conquering the rest of the world (like what were doing their Valyrian ancestors prior the Doom).

 

If he wanted to conquer the world he could've or Viserys I. But they didn't, so this seems to be wrong. 

[Megorova]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Aegon IV alone might have had more than a hundred (if nof a couple hundred) bastards.

It seems that the Faceless Men were mostly inactive at the Targaryen court for several decades. They poisoned Aegon II in 131 AC, they killed his daughter Jaehaera in 133, then Lysandro and Drazenko Rogares in 135, and then the next Targaryen that they had killed was Baelor Breakspear, who died in 209 AC. So the Faceless Men weren't killing Targaryens for ~74 years. That's because apparently they made a deal with Johanna Swann (Larra Rogare's mother). She robbed Rogare Bank. There was a lot of money there, tons of gold. So with all that gold she paid off the Faceless Men for them not to butt into her business. On her request (and she paid for it) they killed her husband and brother-in-law, and then left in peace her daughter's family, for which she also paid.

Though there is a possibility that Daeron I, Baelor I, Alyn Velaryon and Viserys II were killed by the Faceless Men, or maybe Viserys was poisoned either by his son (Aegon IV) or by his wife (Larra).

Johanna, Larra/Serenei and Shiera were witches (shadowbinders, bloodmages, cat-skinchangers, etc.), so the Faceless Men were staying away from them, also because Johanna paid them with the Rogare gold. Those witches controlled Targaryen court for many decades, so in that time-frame Targaryen family-tree wasn't pruned by the Faceless Men, or at least not as actively as it was during Jaehaerys I's reign (FM killed 11 out of his 13 children, and also killed his grandchildren, and his uncle Maegor the Cruel and one of Maegor's wives - Queen Ceryse Hightower, and his (Jaehaerys') father Aenys I).

So Aegon IV and his siblings and his children weren't targeted by the Faceless Men. Then I don't know what had changed, because Shiera was still present at the Targaryen court, but for some reason the Faceless Men started killing again. They killed Baelor, then Daeron II and both of Baelor's sons and his two unborn grandsons. Those Targaryens that died during the Great Spring Sickness didn't died from it (like all dragonseeds they were immune to all viruses and bacterias, and thus couldn't have been infected with any common diseases), instead they were poisoned by the Faceless Men. At that time this people were Kingsguards-FM: Rolland Crakehall, Donnel of Duskendale. So they did it - killed all those Targaryens after Baelor's death. Aerys I, Rhaegel, Maekar I, then Summerhall, then Aerys II's children. This KG were also FM - Gerold Hightower, Jonothor Darry, Oswell Whent (maybe), Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant. 

46 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And why would they murder 11 children of Alysanne and Jaehaerys instead of one of them?

It seems that the Faceless Men are guided by some sort of set of rules or guidlines, and one of them is to make Fate to decide which Targaryen should be allowed to live and which should be killed. To define that, the Sealord is tossing an iron coin. Both Jaehaerys and Alysanne "won", so they were off limits. But their children weren't.

Vaegon was left alive because he was not a threat to Braavos. As a maester there was no pbobability that he will ever become a dragonrider. The FM also didn't killed Saera, because they were intending to use her for breeding dragonseeds.

The Sealord of Braavos had three dragon eggs that he got from Elissa Farman. His people approached Elissa and offered her a deal. She stole three dragon eggs for the Sealord, and then the Faceless Men hid her from Targaryens, and then by using their channels transported her to Braavos. That's why Jaehaerys' search party was unable to locate her. The Sealord wanted to hatch those eggs, and for that he needed three dragonseed babies. So that's when Saera became part of his plan. Ryam Redwyne (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) and his brother Robert Redwyne (Commander of the City Watch) both were Faceless Men, and they orchestrated Saera's downfall and her subsequent escape to Essos, where she then gave birth to three children. Though those boys failed to hatch dragon eggs.

That's why during the Dance of the Dragons the other Sealord (or maybe the same one) ordered two of his people, those FM that were in the Kingsguard, to bring him another egg, and also to kidnap a Targaryen baby, that's why they took little Maelor. Though that plan also failed and Braavosi didn't got any dragons, even though they tried and tried and tried. There were Saera's three children, there were Aerion Brightflame's three bastards born at Lys, there were three children of Bellegere Otherys and Aegon IV. That Bellegere was the Sealord's granddaughter, and the current Sealord of Braavos is a descendant of Bellegere and Aegon, same as the current Black Pearl of Braavos.

Concerning this coin-tossing - with this method the Sealords not only decided which Targaryen should be left alive and which should be killed, they also decided for those that won a right to live during the first round, whether this Targaryen should be left living naturally or should his/her life be altered.

"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

Aerys II lost in the second round, and thus the Faceless Men were poisoning him with basilisk blood, which caused his madness.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What also doesn't make sense is the mass murders you blame the FM for.

It just seems too convenient that those epidemies happened when the FM needed a cover for their activities. Under the cover of the Great Spring Sickness in 209-210 they killed Daeron II, Valarr, Matarys and Valarr's two unborn sons; during the Shivers in 59-60 they killed Princess Daenerys, and provided Elissa's brother, Androw Farman, with poison to kill his wife Rhaena Targaryen and her daughter Aerea. Though Androw turned out to be a wuss and, unlike his sister, was unable to pull through his part of the deal with the FM. And then additionally Rego Draz figured out that those deaths at Dragonstone were results of poisoning, not Shivers. Thus, to prevent Rego from butting into their business in the future, the Faceless Men orchestrated Rego's death. And then one of them, posing as a Barefoot Girl, that after Rego's death was taked by the Targaryens to work at the Red Keep's kitchens, poisoned that bread that Princess Daenerys ate during the New Year Eve's dinner with her family. And aside from those two epidemies at Westeros (that could have occured naturaly, or could have been caused by the Faceless Men) that epidemy at Essos that killed Serra (Illyrio's wife) was 100% CAUSED by the Faceless Men (because the ship that brought infected rats to Pentos was from Braavos).

But it's all so complex and convoluted that, thus far, besides me, no one else had figured it out.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You do realise that is bullshit, right?

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it's bullshit.

Have you read Fire&Blood, specifically about the Doctrine of Exceptionalism?

"The king and queen were not the only parents to lose a child to the Shivers; thousands of others, highborn and low, knew the same pain that winter. For Jaehaerys and Alysanne, however, the death of their beloved daughter must have seemed especially cruel, for it struck at the very heart of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Princess Daenerys had been Targaryen on both sides, with the blood of Old Valyria running pure through her veins, and those of Valyrian descent were not like other men. Targaryens had purple eyes and hair of gold and silver, they ruled the sky on dragons, the doctrines of the Faith and the prohibitions against incest did not apply to them…and they did not get sick.

Since Aenar the Exile first staked his claim to Dragonstone, that had been known. Targaryens did not die of pox or the bloody flux, they were not afflicted with redspots or brownleg or the shaking sickness, they would not succumb to wormbone or clotted lung or sourgut or any of the myriad pestilences and contagions that the gods, for reasons of their own, see fit to loose on mortal men and women. There was fire in the blood of the dragon, it was reasoned, a purifying fire that burned out all such plagues. It was unthinkable that a pureborn princess should die shivering, as if she were some common child.

And yet she had.

Even as they mourned for her and the sweet soul she had been, Jaehaerys and Alysanne must also have been confronting that awful realization. Mayhaps the Targaryens were not so close to gods as they had believed. Mayhaps, in the end, they too were only men."

 

 

Daenerys' death made Targaryens to believe that they are not immune to common human diseases, even though they were. Which from then on made them easy targets for being poisoned by their Kingsguards (those of them that were Faceless Men).

""I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and afraid, but never sick." - ADWD, Dany VI.

Pox (syphilis), bloody flux (Amoebic dysentery), redspots (seems to be either Typhus or Measles), brownleg (Cholera), shaking sickness (if it's the one that Robert Arryn is affected with, then it seems to be Epilepsy), wormbone (a disease where worm eggs make home inside of marrows, something similar to Dracunculiasis <- which is an actual disease), clotted lung (apparently something like Tuberculosis), sourgut (seems to be either Inflammatory arthritis which in Medieval ages was called Gut, or it could be Appendicitis).

Majority of those deseases are caused either by viruses or by bacterias. Bacterial - pox, bloody flux, redspots (if it's Typhus), brownleg, Great Spring Sickness - majority in the fandom agree that it was a parallel to Black Plague, which is caused by bacterias. Viral (caused by viruses) - Winter Shivers (seems to be Influenza like Spanish Flu), redspots (if it's Measles), etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_infections

"Postpartum infections, also known as childbed fever and puerperal fever, are any bacterial infections of the female reproductive tract following childbirth or miscarriage.^[1] Signs and symptoms usually include a fever greater than 38.0 °C (100.4 °F), chills, lower abdominal pain, and possibly bad-smelling vaginal discharge.^[1]It usually occurs after the first 24 hours and within the first ten days following delivery.^[5]

The most common infection is that of the uterus and surrounding tissues known as puerperal sepsis, postpartum metritis, or postpartum endometritis.^[1][6] Risk factors include Caesarean section (C-section), the presence of certain bacteria such as group B streptococcus in the vagina, premature rupture of membranes, multiple vaginal exams, manual removal of the placenta, and prolonged labour among others.^[1][2]Most infections involve a number of types of bacteria."

Targaryens and other Valyrians are immune to bacterial and viral diseases. Thus little Daenerys coudn't have died from Shivers, Daeron II and his grandsons couldn't have died from the Great Spring Sickness, and all those Targaryen women and their newborn babies that have died more than 10 days after labor, couldn't have died from childbed fever or from trauma that they got during labour. There was no "baby-boxes" or Intensive Care Units at that time. So if the newborn baby in those times had some sort of condition because of which it was non-viable (unable to survive without the life-support that it was previously provided thru the mother's body, while the baby was inside her), then this baby would have died no more than several days after birth. Though Aerys II's children - Daeron has lived 6 months after being born; Aegon was born two months premature in 272, though he died in 273, so he did lived for a few months after birth; and there's Jaehaerys, whose death, as his father suspected, was a result of poisoning. So when his next child was born (Viserys), Aerys took extreme measures to assure his safety - "In 276 AC, Rhaella gave birth to Prince Viserys. While he was small and robust, he was healthy. However, Aerys feared that Viserys would die like his brothers, and so tasked the Kingsguard to watch over the infant. Even Rhaella was forbidden to be alone with her son. Aerys insisted that his food taster suckle at the breasts of the wet nurse, to be certain that there was no poison on her nipples." - and only thanks to his father's paranoya, Viserys managed to survive. There were FM amongst Aerys' Kingsguards, but he charged them to keep watch over his child in pairs, and even though one of them was an FM, the other was a real Kingsguard, so that fake one was unable to do anything to the child, while the other one was also present.

Though other Targaryens weren't as suspicious as Aerys, and thus FM-KG were able to kill Jaehaerys I' children and grandchildren - Vaella, Aegon (he died three days after birth, most likely because he was born premature, and that happened because when Queen Alysanne was pregnant, she was attacked at the Jonquil's Pool by the women that wanted to kill her. How in this case the Faceless Men can be responsible for Aegon's death? Well, the Kingsguard who was then supposed to guard Alysanne, was Gyles Morrigen, and he was a Faceless Man. So he on purpose let those women to get to Alysanne, which caused her give birth to Aegon too soon, which resulted in his death. The FM didn't killed little Aegon directly, same as they didn't killed Princess Gael, though they were responsible for what happened to them), "Daella went into labor a fortnight too early, and had a long and troubled labor. Although her daughter, Aemma Arryn, was healthy, childbed fever began soon after the birth. Her fever only grew worse, and Daella eventually died, at the age of eighteen.^[1]" <- What childbed fever? Childbed fever is caused by bacterias, and dragonseeds are immune to bacterias. Thus Daella's fever was caused by poison, she was killed by the Faceless Men, same as was Aenys I.

Seems that he was the first Targaryen that was killed by FM. They didn't knew yet what poisons would work on the dragonseeds and which won't. So they were trying out various poisons, and those poisons that were affecting Aenys, the FM then were administering to him in various dosases, untill they finally got the right amount, which killed him. And though his stepmother's intervention nearly saved Aenys, the FM eventually managed to bypass her - "The coming of the new year found King Aenys still on Dragonstone, sick with fear and indecision. His Grace was but thirty-five years of age, but it was said that he looked like a man of sixty, and Grand Maester Gawen reported that he oft took to his bed with loose bowels and stomach cramps. When none of the Grand Maester’s cures proved efficacious, the Dowager Queen took charge of the king’s care, and Aenys seemed to improve for a time…only to suffer a sudden collapse when word reached him that thousands of Poor Fellows had surrounded Crakehall, where his son and daughter were reluctant “guests.” Three days later, the king was dead." Killed by FM.

 

The thing is - many readers (including me, until recently) have this misconceptions about Targaryens - that they are not immune to common human diseases, that they suffer side-effects from imbreeding (though actually they don't) - such as low level of vitality for their babies and pregnant women, Targaryen-brand madness, various deformities or deviations (like Shiera Seastar's heterochromia, etc.). That's why they all believe that Aerys II really was crazy (but actually he was frequently poisoned with basilisk blood), that his wife and children suffered side-effect of inbreeding, and that's why 8 out of her 11 children were stillborn, miscarried or died in the cradle. While actually they died because the Faceless Men added either ingredients of Moon Tea into her food and drink, or those berries that stupid Dany ate in the end of ADWD. Dothraki-women eat those berries to prevent getting pregnant. Though if the woman is already pregnant (which was the case with Dany), then she will have a miscarriage.

And as long as the readers think that all that red herring (that GRRM has scattered all over his books) is the truth, they don't see what is actually going on.  Though them (and you) not seeing/understanding it, doesn't make it bullshit.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

On 9/5/2021 at 6:48 PM, Megorova said:

Aegon with his three dragons conquered Westeros, so the Sealords weren't going to wait for when the Targaryens will turn their interests back to conquering the rest of the world (like what were doing their Valyrian ancestors prior the Doom).

 

If he wanted to conquer the world he could've or Viserys I. But they didn't, so this seems to be wrong. 

"The new Hand of the King departed within days of his elevation, taking ship for Braavos to consult with the Sealord and the Iron Bank. He was accompanied by Ser Gyles Morrigen and six guardsmen, but only Septon Barth took part in the discussions. The purpose of his mission was a grave one: war or peace. King Jaehaerys had great admiration for the city of Braavos, Barth told the Sealord; for that reason, he had not come himself, understanding as he did the Free City’s bitter history with Valyria and its dragonlords. If his Hand was not able to settle the matter at hand amicably, however, His Grace would have no choice but to come himself on Vermithor for what Barth termed “vigorous discussions.” When the Sealord inquired as to what the matter at hand might be, the septon gave him a sad smile and said, “Is that how this must be played? We are speaking of three eggs. Need I say more?”

The Sealord said, “I admit to nothing. If I was in possession of such eggs, however, it could only be because I purchased them.”

“From a thief.”

“How shall that be proved? Has this thief been seized, tried, found guilty? Braavos is a city of laws. Who is the rightful owner of these eggs? Can they show me proof of ownership?”

“His Grace can show you proof of dragons.”

That made the Sealord smile. “The veiled threat. Your king is most adroit at that. Stronger than his father, more subtle than his uncle. Yes, I know what Jaehaerys could do to us, if he chose. Braavosi have a long memory, and we remember the dragonlords of old. There are certain things that we might do to your king as well, however. Shall I enumerate? Or do you prefer the threat veiled?”

“However it please your lordship.”

“As you will. Your king could burn my city down to ash, I do not doubt. Tens of thousands would die in dragonflame. Men, women, and children. I do not have the power to wreak that sort of destruction upon Westeros. Such sellswords as I might hire would flee before your knights. My fleets could sweep yours from the sea for a time, but my ships are made of wood, and wood burns. However, there is in this city a certain…guild, let us say…whose members are very skilled at their chosen profession. They could not destroy King’s Landing, nor fill its streets with corpses. But they could kill…a few. A well-chosen few.”

“His Grace is protected day and night by the Kingsguard.”

“Knights, yes. Such as the man who waits for you outside. If indeed he is still waiting. What would you say if I were to tell you that Ser Gyles is already dead?” When Septon Barth began to rise, the Sealord waved him back to his seat. “No, please, no need to rush away. I said what if. I did consider it. They are most skilled, as I said. Had I done so, however, you might have acted unwisely, and many more good people might have died. That is not my desire. Threats make me uncomfortable. Westerosi may be warriors, but we Braavosi are traders. Let us trade.”

Septon Barth settled back down. “What do you offer?”

“I do not have these eggs, of course,” the Sealord said. “You cannot prove elsewise. If I did have them, however…well, until they hatch, they are but stones. Would your king begrudge me three pretty stones? Now, if I had three…chickens…I might understand his concern. I do admire your Jaehaerys, though. He is a great improvement on his uncle, and Braavos does not wish to see him so unhappy. So instead of stones, let me offer…gold.”

And with that the real bargaining began.

There are those even today who will insist that Septon Barth was made a fool of by the Sealord, that he was lied to, cheated, and humiliated. They point to the fact that he returned to King’s Landing without a single dragon’s egg. This is true.

What he did bring back was not of inconsiderable value, however. At the Sealord’s urging, the Iron Bank of Braavos forgave the entire remaining principal of its loan to the Iron Throne. At a stroke, the Crown’s debt had been cut in half. “And all at the cost of three stones,” Barth told the king.

“The Sealord had best hope that they remain stones,” Jaehaerys said. “If I should hear so much as a whisper of…chickens…his palace will be the first to burn.” "

 

 

Jaehaerys waited, but the Sealord didn't, same as his predecessor. As he said - "Yes, I know what Jaehaerys could do to us, if he chose. Braavosi have a long memory, and we remember the dragonlords of old."

Also, there was this:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Century_of_Blood

"As Valyria's "First Daughter", the Volantenes regarded themselves as the rightful successors of the dragonlords.^[12] The so-called tigers, aggressive Volantene nobles descended of Valyrian blood, called for war upon the other cities. Taking control of Lys and Myr and commanded the southern reaches of the Rhoyne,^[9][13] Volantis ruled their two sister-cities for two generations.^[13]

Resistance began when Volantis attempted to take control of Tyrosh, however,^[9] and in the end, all of the Free Cities, save for Lorath,^[14] either rebelled against Volantis or joined the alliance against the Volantenes. Pentos gave Tyrosh aid in their resistance while Myr and Lys rebelled.^[9]Qohor and Norvos made an alliance against Volantis^[3] and destroyed much of the Volantene fleet controlling the Rhoyne at Dagger Lake.^[9] The Titan's wrath was provoked in Braavos,^[15] and the Sealord of Braavos sent a hundred ships to Lys for further aid.^[9]Argilac Durrandon, the Storm King from Westeros, led a host into the Disputed Lands, where he defeated an army from Volantis attempting to retake Myr.^[9][2][13] Pentos and Tyrosh also approached the last remaining dragonlords, House Targaryen on Dragonstone, and a young Aegon Targaryen agreed to join the alliance against Volantis. Mounted on his dragon, Balerion, he flew to Lys, where a Volantene fleet was preparing an invasion, and set the fleet ablaze.^[9][13]"

 

Everyone again saw what dragons can do. So just in case if Aegon or his descendants will decide that Westeros isn't big enough for them, and would want to add Essos (including Braavos) to the lands over which they rule, the Sealord sent his people to infiltrate Targaryen court, just in case. And when Queen Visenya suggested to Aegon to create the Kingsguard to protect him, the Sealord said - Well, one of my boys should offer to Targaryens his candidacy.

And that's how in the very first Targaryen Kingsguard there was a Faceless Man - Humfrey the Mummer (mummer means actor, a person with many identities/many faces).

And from then on there was at least one FM in every set of the Kingsguards.

If Targaryens would have ever decided that they want MORE, then it would have been already too late for the Faceless Men to act. Because all it would have taken for a Targaryen to conquer any of the Free Cities, is to just mount his/her dragon, to fly to that city and to burn most of its population, and the rest will bend the knee to their new dragonlord-ruler. And how were FM supposed to stop that? It's not possible. In case with dragons, any countermeasures during or after the attack, would have been ineffective. So the only efficient measures were those that were preventive/proactive, BEFORE, not during or after.

Can you imagine what Targaryens would have been capable of, if all 13 of Jaehaerys' children had lived to adulthood and all 13 of them became dragonriders, same as their various cousins and aunts and uncles? If the FM didn't poisoned Aenys I (he would have had more children than just those 6 that he had), didn't caused Maegor's madness and there was no civil war between Targaryens, if the FM didn't killed Jaehaerys' sister baby-Vaella, if Maegor didn't killed Jaehaerys' brothers Viserys and Aegon, if Vaella had lived to adulthood, married and had 10+ children same as her sisblings, and if Aegon and Rhaena stayed alive and kept making more babies besides Rhaella and Aerea,

then, by the end of the first century of Targaryen reign over Westeros, there would have been 100+ dragonriders and dragons. So if they ever wished to, Targaryens would have been able to conquer the whole world in one week tops. 

That's why the Sealords took active measures to assure that the Targaryens not only never would want something like that, but also will never be capable of it, because the FM will weaken them as much as possible. Though they didn't killed all the Targaryens. Probably because of the prophecy about the Second Long Night. They (FM) know it, and they know that Azor Ahai Reborn will be a dragonrider. That's why they kept a few Targaryens alive, and for several generations at Braavos were preserving three Targaryen dragon eggs, that the current Sealord eventually gave as a reward to mummer-dwarfs, that were working for Varys and Illyrio. And that's how those eggs got to Dany (as her wedding gift from Illyrio). It seems likely that since Bellegere Otherys' three half-dragonseed children (they were great-grandchildren of the guy who at that time was the acting Sealord of Braavos), the Braavosi, same as Targaryens, had a gift of dragondreams, so they were able to predict future. The current Sealord is a descendant of Aegon IV, same as the woman that he apparently is in love with (?) - the current Black Pearl of Braavos, also named Bellegere, same as her ancestor.

So it's all very complicated, and if you don't get it, then there's no point of discussing it. Not until TWOW's release, where thru Arya's chapters some things about the FM could be made clear (or at least clearer). Though the thing with GRRM is, is that even if he will write and release TWOW, it doesn't necessary mean that in that book he will be writing things less complex or less convoluted than he did before. So it's more than likely that even if there will be additional clues there, concerning what is really going on on the Braavosi side of the plot, majority of ASOIAF's readers even then won't notice it, same as they haven't noticed anything until now. Even though there were clues in TWOIAF and Fire&Blood and in The Hedge Knight.

For example - Baelor Breakspear wasn't wearing a helm when he got hit. Because part of his scull was cleanly sliced off, and the helmet that was above that part, wasn't. Which means that Baelor took off his helmet when the fighting ended. Then, when he was walking from Maekar's group to Dunk's group, he was escorted there by one or two of the Kingsguards (two out of the three present at Ashford were FM). And that KG-FM sliced at Baelor's head with a sword. Then, when Baelor fell, the FM took the helm and placed it back on Baelor's head, and then left. Though, because Targaryens are dragonseeds and they are superior to other races, what would have been an instant deadly trauma for an average human, didn't killed Baelor immediately. He was able to get up, and then on autopilot he kept doing whatever he was doing prior he got hit - he kept walking towards Dunk's group. And only there died, after they helped him to take his helmet off. And no one noticed what was going on, because everyone's attention was diverted by whatever was happening to Dunk and Prince Maekar, and those people that got wounded in the fight. And while Baelor was going between those two groups, thru the field, his Kingsguard-escort was not visible, because they (or he) was wearing all white, and there was fog there.

And GRRM even wrote - "And it was my mace that dealt the fatal blow, I have no doubt. The only other foes he faced in the melee were three Kingsguard, whose vows forbade them to do any more than defend themselves. So it was me. Strange to say, I do not recall the blow that broke his skull.", but the readers still didn't noticed.

Even I noticed that only when I was reading THK for the third time, and it was already after I have read F&B and there noticed that the Sealord of Braavos hinted to Septon Barth that Gyles Morrigen is dead, and that the man that came with Barth to Braavos is actually a Faceless Man who killed the real Gyles and took his place in the Kingsguard.