US Politics: Rural Southernification… (thanks Zorral)

[Zorral]

You seem not to have seen the photo posted right in this thread.

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You seem not to have seen the photo posted right in this thread.

I think the point was that you can't tell if those were automatic weapons, though that would clearly be an incredibly pedantic point to get hung up on.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

@Tywin et al.

What I'm talking about is essentially asking you (all Americans around and the rest of us who may be dealing with similar stuff elsewhere) to think twice before you may end up killing each other, any more than you already are. That's what it all boils down to. Such worries may well be overblown, but I can't discount them either. You can see my first reply on the other thread and the replies around it to see why that came up in the first place, and why I approached it the way I did.

I don't expect you to agree on anything.

Your directionality is wrong though. I agree both sides shouldn't be at each other's throats, but the liberals are not the side hoarding guns and sinking into violent fascism. That's the conservatives, and there's no denying this, both here in America and in many parts of Europe as @Arakan has correctly pointed out. There's a reason why various agencies have said that the biggest threat of terrorism is coming from right wing white nationalist organizations, just like the ones that attacked the Capitol on 1/6. You can't compare anything the left has done to that.

Moreover, your approach is just wrong. It often boils down to you arguing that the abussor's thoughts and feelings need to be considered too. Since Rosh Hashanah beings today let's use Jews and Neo-Nazis as an example. Do you seriously believe that a Jewish person should have to do the heavily lifting on extending empathy to a Nazi while expecting nothing in return from the other side, because that's basically what you've written the entire time? In your words it's been constantly that the left needs to understand the right without even attempting to argue the reverse. In the very post you linked you said as much, that you were not going to do what you were specifically asking others to do and called their actions bad faith.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I think the point was that you can't tell if those were automatic weapons, though that would clearly be an incredibly pedantic point to get hung up on.

And counterpoint, if there were a bunch of BLM supporters with guns storming the Capitol there probably would have been dozens, maybe hundreds, of dead black bodies on the steps of Congress. 

[TrueMetis]

15 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I think the point was that you can't tell if those were automatic weapons, though that would clearly be an incredibly pedantic point to get hung up on.

They were definitely semi-automatic at least. IIRC though even the US has banned full autos.

[Larry of the Lawn]

23 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

They were definitely semi-automatic at least. IIRC though even the US has banned full autos.

Yeah, just pointing out that when arguing about anything gun related they will latch on to something like that to obfuscate or deflect.

With the federal assault weapons ban expired there are probably some fully automatic guns out there that are now 'legal' (proably in very few jurisdictions) again that peole have had squirrlelled away in basements.  My mom's boyfriend when I was in highschool had a dozen or so fully auto rifles locked away when they were totally illegal, his family found them when he died and they went through his stuff.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Obligatory, because boredom:

 

I’ve never seen that before… [breathing is good]

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’ve never seen that before… [breathing is good]

Wait, you've never seen Super Troopers? 

[TrueMetis]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Yeah, just pointing out that when arguing about anything gun related they will latch on to something like that to obfuscate or deflect.

With the federal assault weapons ban expired there are probably some fully automatic guns out there that are now 'legal' (proably in very few jurisdictions) again that peole have had squirrlelled away in basements.  My mom's boyfriend when I was in highschool had a dozen or so fully auto rifles locked away when they were totally illegal, his family found them when he died and they went through his stuff.

If gun nuts can get a bug up their ass as they quibble "the Ar-15 isn't an assault rifle" on the technicality it doesn't have a fire selector switch then they can't complain when a semi-automatic is called an automatic. Automatic refers to the ability to re-chamber a round without human intervention not the rate of fire after all.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wait, you've never seen Super Troopers? 

Nothing but random clips.

[gruff one]

2 names come to mind, Gabby Giffords and Steve Scalise. The first shot by someone with anti- government views, the second by someone with democratic views. The end of slavery and voting rights for POC and women were brought about by the republican party. White republicans were hanged along with Blacks during reconstruction. Some protesters carried loaded firearms on Jan. 6, they were not turned on the capital police.

I vote democratic. I voted Biden. I do this, to hopefully support and increase the middle class.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, gruff one said:

2 names come to mind, Gabby Giffords and Steve Scalise. The first shot by someone with anti- government views, the second by someone with democratic views. The end of slavery and voting rights for POC and women were brought about by the republican party. White republicans were hanged along with Blacks during reconstruction. Some protesters carried loaded firearms on Jan. 6, they were not turned on the capital police.

I vote democratic. I voted Biden. I do this, to hopefully support and increase the middle class.

You undermine your argument with your middle sentences. The Republicans of the Civil War era are not the same sort of group as the Republicans of 2021. The Republicans of 2021 aren't even the same coalition of persons as the Republicans of 1971 were. 

My favorite politician of my lifetime is still Linwood Holton, who was the first Republican governor of Virginia after Reconstruction 1970-1974. He had school age children while he was governor, and he sent his kids to the Richmond public schools that they would have been assigned to if the governor's mansion was a private home, though there was a law on the books stating the governor could send his kids to any public school he wanted to. This meant his kids were attending mostly Black schools, an unheard of thing for a White Virginia politician of the times. But he was the last of the old style moderate Republicans in VIrginia -- while he was governor, the state Republican party was taken over by the conservatives who were leaving the Democratic party. The Republicans actually nominated Mills Godwin, who had been the Democratic governor for the term before Holton's, to succeed him. Holton didn't even attend the Republican convention where Godwin was nominated. 

I myself was an alternate delegate to the Republican convention that nominated Godwin. I was disgusted by the party's repudiation of Linwood Holton, and it was the beginnig of my disillusionment with the party and leaving them myself 20 years after that. Those who run the Republicans today are not Linwood Holton's Republicans. Heck, they're probably not even Mills Godwin's Republicans but are way more right-wing than that. The people who ended slavery and were killed by the KKK during Reconstruction would not be welcome in today's Republican party, and it is historically silly to bring them up in any discussion of the politics of 2021, except to be amazed at how much things can change over 160 years. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linwood_Holton

[Mindwalker]

Republicans Accidentally Send Letter To Wrong CEO In Attempt To Thwart Jan. 6 Probe

The letter, first reported by Forbes, was sent to Marissa Mayer, who resigned as CEO of the web services and email company more than four years ago, rather than current CEO Guru Gowrappan. *

The letter was one of more than a dozen, sent to companies including AT&T, Apple and Verizon, which owns Yahoo, by 11 right-wing Republicans including Reps. Andy Biggs (R-Ariz.), Jim Banks (R-Ind.) and Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.).

The letters urge the companies to decline a request from the January 6 panel to preserve the phone records and data of Capitol riot defendants and others who sought to overturn the election, vowing to “pursue all legal remedies” if they don’t.

Many of the letter’s signatories, such as Reps. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) and Madison Cawthorn (R-N.C.), who spoke at a “Stop The Steal” rally outside the White House ahead of the Capitol riot, are likely being targeted by the probe.

The letters address that likelihood, with the lawmakers telling the companies they “do not consent to the release of confidential call records or data” as part of their threat of legal action.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/09/06/republicans-accidentally-send-letter-to-wrong-ceo-in-attempt-to-thwart-jan-6-probe/

 

*I love how even when they commit crimes, they're too lazy to do their research...

[gruff one]

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

You undermine your argument with your middle sentences. The Republicans of the Civil War era are not the same sort of group as the Republicans of 2021. The Republicans of 2021 aren't even the same coalition of persons as the Republicans of 1971 were. 

My favorite politician of my lifetime is still Linwood Holton, who was the first Republican governor of Virginia after Reconstruction 1970-1974. He had school age children while he was governor, and he sent his kids to the Richmond public schools that they would have been assigned to if the governor's mansion was a private home, though there was a law on the books stating the governor could send his kids to any public school he wanted to. This meant his kids were attending mostly Black schools, an unheard of thing for a White Virginia politician of the times. But he was the last of the old style moderate Republicans in VIrginia -- while he was governor, the state Republican party was taken over by the conservatives who were leaving the Democratic party. The Republicans actually nominated Mills Godwin, who had been the Democratic governor for the term before Holton's, to succeed him. Holton didn't even attend the Republican convention where Godwin was nominated. 

I myself was an alternate delegate to the Republican convention that nominated Godwin. I was disgusted by the party's repudiation of Linwood Holton, and it was the beginnig of my disillusionment with the party and leaving them myself 20 years after that. Those who run the Republicans today are not Linwood Holton's Republicans. Heck, they're probably not even Mills Godwin's Republicans but are way more right-wing than that. The people who ended slavery and were killed by the KKK during Reconstruction would not be welcome in today's Republican party, and it is historically silly to bring them up in any discussion of the politics of 2021, except to be amazed at how much things can change over 160 years. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linwood_Holton

VRA of 1965, not so long ago, plenty of people old enough to remember or at least heard of it from their parents. My take away from Holton is beware who you invite into the big tent. I don't think the social issues of today are whats really dividing the country. I think economics is the driver. Trickle down did not work.

[Varysblackfyre321]

36 minutes ago, gruff one said:

I don't think the social issues of today are whats really dividing the country.

Economic anxiety is not the main driving force for Trumpism. 

If it was we would probably see some significant  form of a collapse in support as the economy tanked under Trump’s term.

And it wasn’t some class-based declaration that launched trump to political stardom.

It was saying most Mexican immigrants are rapists and drug dealers.

On 9/4/2021 at 11:30 AM, Mindwalker said:

Came across this older video of Sam Seder discussing a Jordan Peterson appearance on Real Time. It addresses these appeals to Democrats to undertand/ talk to/ etc. trumpists, and where they come from, quite nicely, I think.

 

Very interesting video.

 

Sam is right when he says there liberals can make progress to be made in other areas of the electorate.

Disaffected moderates, and centrists perhaps.
Not conservatives for the most part.

Theres an expectation that liberals that even when in power have to act like a powerless minority and treat conservatives as so significant that they must clamor to modulate their rhetoric and themselves before they can move forward with any agenda they have.
also Jordan Peterson really does show how trying to have a public “dialogue” with a person from the far-right on his fears can be counterproductive.

In large part of liberals continuously giving him platforms many people think a bill that expanded equal-protections to gender identity means you must call someone their preferred when asked you get a lifetime imprisonment if not killed or something else that hasn’t happened in Canada.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I think the point was that you can't tell if those were automatic weapons, though that would clearly be an incredibly pedantic point to get hung up on.

Eh, it can pedantic for someone to take issue with someone else proclaiming there were a presence of automatic weapons some place when they mean guns in general.

But it’s not honest to pretend the person being pedantic also was going guns=automatic weapons.

Just say you meant guns and hammer home the fact guns or not a a mob tried to destroy congress. 

[Arakan]

@Tywin et al.

This thread gives you a perfect example of the modus operandi of intelligent fascist extremists and it shows that you cannot „win“ such a discussion. The only solution thus is to tell them politely to fuck off. 

The only goal of this mcbigski user is to force you into contradictions, not discussing themes per se. When they have reached their goal, when they have their soundbites and „proof“ of your supposed „hypocrisy“ they move on and show their in-group how totally morally corrupt their enemies are, thus further radicalizing themselves. Honest discussions need the acknowledgments of shades of grey, will not happen with radicals.

That mcbigski user used the example of Hunter Biden to show how corrupt and self-serving the Democrat Elite actually is. True self-serving elitists, preaching of all the good things while actually just abusing the minorities for their own goals. That’s what he wants to convey. And now all of you are forced to defend nepotism and corruption within your own in-group. 

Biden is a representative of the elite. Hunter Biden and his shady deals are a sign of nepotism and corruption. But it doesn’t matter. Shades of Grey. 
As if the mcbigski user whould really care about this. All of his beloved Republicans are corrupt and self-serving to the bone, all of them representatives of the elite. He only cares that you and other defend Biden to get his soundbites.

Call a spade a spade. Deny them the oxygen. Even if Biden were corrupt, that doesn’t devalue his fight for the rights of minorities. 

Though obviously the Democrats should take a long look at themselves as well. Self-improvement is a real thing. And they should fight to de-monetize electoral campaigns. I think we can all agree. Not only is the increase in campaign costs over the last 20-30 years INSANE, it also fucks over democratic accountability and independence of representatives. It’s fucked up and basically everyone knows it.

[ThinkerX]

from what I have seen, Conservatives are motivated by fear.  Almost all of their articles and propaganda pieces I see on FB and elsewhere are rooted in an overriding fear of dang near everything.  Hence all the paranoid denials and conspiracy theories.  From their POV, the 'end is nigh' - literally, and draconian measures are needed to stave it off.  Being ruled by fear leads to increasingly irrational actions.  

[Arakan]

To add one thing…talking to extremists or fanatics, be it political or religious, trying to make them see their errors is utterly useless. It’s very very similar trying to talk to drug or alcohol addicts or gambling addicts. 

First thing a therapist will tell you is: there is no magic solution and the first and most important step to get clean is starting to be brutally honest to oneself, no more self-serving excuses or living in denial. Start being self-reflective and acknowledge that you have a problem, make yourself 100% accountable and don’t shift responsibilities. It’s very hard and no one likes to stand in front of a mirror and admit to oneself: it’s my fault and I fucked up. No one other to blame than myself. Very hard but very necessary. No one likes that, admitting weakness and wrong-doing. Much easier to shift all blame or rather responsibilities to someone or something else. 

Fanatics and addicts are so entrenched in their ways and views that no amount of external „consulting“ will help without self-reflection. It’s really similar. And thus, with extremists until they reached that point of self-reflection (if at all) you fight them.

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, ThinkerX said:

from what I have seen, Conservatives are motivated by fear.  Almost all of their articles and propaganda pieces I see on FB and elsewhere are rooted in an overriding fear of dang near everything.  Hence all the paranoid denials and conspiracy theories.  From their POV, the 'end is nigh' - literally, and draconian measures are needed to stave it off.  Being ruled by fear leads to increasingly irrational actions.  

Yes. And the more fear you spread, the closer you are to fascism. Fascism needs their bogeymen, be it degenerate „cultural marxists“, all controlling jews or communists/bolsheviks who want to take away your property. Fascism is primarily not a pro-active ideology, showing some utopia, but rather a reactive one. You have or had a glorious past/ status quo / way of life and the bogeymen want to destroy it/take it from you.