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How could Hoster Tully have improved the Riverlands?


Mrstrategy

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2 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

How could Hoster Tully had improved the Riverlands when he was was lord paramount of Riverlands  making them more powerful economically and militarily?

Investing in more fortified bridges would be something worth considering. I don’t get why the Freys’ lucrative toll strategy wasn’t replicated by more houses. Ferries are fine, but they aren’t as effective or safe as a decent well kept bridge. That means more traders, and as long as the toll keepers aren’t corrupt, then you’ve got a good thing going. Plus then you have ready fortifications to guard the rivers in case the Riverlands is invaded again.

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I think he should have brought House Frey closer, maybe helped Walder make some advantageous marriages. Just so that way he could keep an eye on them. After their whole “being late” during Robert’s Rebellion, I think for any Lord that should be an issue.  A Northern Lord would have most likely at least come with an a strong force and ask what happened, if not outright hang you for an oath breaker. 
 

the Riverlands are a quarrelsome bunch. I would have used Harrenhall as a far carrot for all the lords to be loyal. Especially because House Whent wasn’t going to outlive it’s current Lady, who was already elderly.  And that would mean the best claimants to Harrenhall would be Hoster’s own Son or Daughters.  And well, he had much higher aspirations for them, so Harrenhall was a nothing gift that would have empowered a House to be very much loyal to him. 

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10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

He could've treated Lysa and Littlefinger better. Both of those characters screwed up adulthoods tie directly back to Hoster's negative influence during their childhoods.

Agree but his manner of dealing with them can be typical of how the nobility regard their children. Bargaining pieces for use in the game of social climbing. 

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50 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Agree but his manner of dealing with them can be typical of how the nobility regard their children. Bargaining pieces for use in the game of social climbing. 

You're not wrong. No one was better at that than Tywin. Yet in the end it was his bad parenting that destroyed him and all the power he spent a lifetime accumulating for his house instantly began to slip away on his death.

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55 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

You're not wrong. No one was better at that than Tywin. Yet in the end it was his bad parenting that destroyed him and all the power he spent a lifetime accumulating for his house instantly began to slip away on his death.

Tywin and Hoster suffer that fate. Their house in shambles, being overshadowed by others, surrounded by enemies, their families broken apart. A very fitting punishment for both of them.

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On 9/3/2021 at 12:41 PM, Canon Claude said:

Investing in more fortified bridges would be something worth considering. I don’t get why the Freys’ lucrative toll strategy wasn’t replicated by more houses. Ferries are fine, but they aren’t as effective or safe as a decent well kept bridge. That means more traders, and as long as the toll keepers aren’t corrupt, then you’ve got a good thing going. Plus then you have ready fortifications to guard the rivers in case the Riverlands is invaded again.

I’m pretty sure building a bridge wouldn’t be the unique idea you think it is. There are many explanations on why it didn’t happen. Maybe the river is too wide, deep or violent to build a bridge at a lot of points. Maybe Lords don’t have the capital needed to divert the equivalent of Mississippi so they can build a medieval stone bridge on bedrock to Ford it. It is also highly likely that any such attempt would be met by hostility from the Frey’s who would either openly or covertly work to undermine your effort and prevent your cutting of their monopoly. Westeros isn’t going to go to war because some lowborn workers were roughed up or murdered, or because a warehouse caught on fire. 

On 9/3/2021 at 11:52 PM, Lord Lannister said:

He could've treated Lysa and Littlefinger better. Both of those characters screwed up adulthoods tie directly back to Hoster's negative influence during their childhoods.

We have no indication of mistreatment of any of them prior to pregnancy incident. Even today in 21st century I’d be terrified of impregnating someone’s 14 year old daughter and coming up to her dad as a 14 year old. I wouldn’t expect a good reaction from her parents. Pls get an abortion would be a highly likely sentence she’ll end up hearing suggested.  Don’t ruin your lives etc. Then you put in medieval power dynamic where a boy little better than a beggar ruined and soiled his girl which literally means losing millions of dragons, alliances, tens of thousands of soldiers etc. All under his roof, by a child he treated kindly all these years and who has nothing more to offer him or his daughter than sheep shit. 

3 hours ago, Kinola said:

Walder should have worked to earn Hoster's respect, or learned to be a little kinder. His family's going to be wiped out because of his own selfishness and pig-headed choices. 

No he shouldn’t have. But he did try anyway. Hosted refused any efforts of raproachment, invites to birthdays or weddings, fostering, marriages etc. He treated his most strategic vassal like dirt for 60 years and expected good from it. 
 

Walders family will be wiped out because he sided with Rob, who then betrayed him, cost him his most capable son and heir, and whose family will now seek vengeance for not taking it like a good boy. If he closed his gates and told Rob to piss off he and his family would live just fine. 
 

———————————————

As for improving the Riverlands as Hoster it’s easy. If Brynden won’t marry see about getting him on Kingsguard after the rebellion. Edmure will marry Brackens eldest, and years earlier. He’s been left unmarried a decade too long. His children engaged to Frey’s, Vances, Mallisters, in that order. Provoke Blackwoods into rebellion then exterminate them and take their lands. That will make Brackens happy and show strength. Edmure is heir to Harrenhal, owns Raventree hall, heir to Brackens since they have no sons and ties Frey’s to himself. Voila. 

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

We have no indication of mistreatment of any of them prior to pregnancy incident. Even today in 21st century I’d be terrified of impregnating someone’s 14 year old daughter and coming up to her dad as a 14 year old. I wouldn’t expect a good reaction from her parents. Pls get an abortion would be a highly likely sentence she’ll end up hearing suggested.  Don’t ruin your lives etc. Then you put in medieval power dynamic where a boy little better than a beggar ruined and soiled his girl which literally means losing millions of dragons, alliances, tens of thousands of soldiers etc. All under his roof, by a child he treated kindly all these years and who has nothing more to offer him or his daughter than sheep shit. 

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. On one hand you're offering a modern day analogy which is just a false equivalency. Comparing modern day morals to morals of the past is apples and oranges. Even more so when you take into an account of a fictional setting. Leaving the morality of abortion aside, there's a huge difference between suggesting it and forcing it on her. 

On the other hand you seem to be arguing because Hoster lost all this potential revenue and status from marrying Lysa off since she's soiled goods(guess we're not talking about modern day morality anymore),  and since Littlefinger is barely more than a peasant, they deserve whatever they got from Hoster? 

I'm not expecting Hoster to be happy about any of it. But treating them both with some degree of dignity so this is less traumatizing to all involved parties isn't too much to ask. This incident is what directly led to both of them becoming the screwed up adults they did.  Maybe Hoster would've been less anguished on his death bed as well.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. On one hand you're offering a modern day analogy which is just a false equivalency. Comparing modern day morals to morals of the past is apples and oranges. Even more so when you take into an account of a fictional setting. Leaving the morality of abortion aside, there's a huge difference between suggesting it and forcing it on her. 

On the other hand you seem to be arguing because Hoster lost all this potential revenue and status from marrying Lysa off since she's soiled goods(guess we're not talking about modern day morality anymore),  and since Littlefinger is barely more than a peasant, they deserve whatever they got from Hoster? 

I'm not expecting Hoster to be happy about any of it. But treating them both with some degree of dignity so this is less traumatizing to all involved parties isn't too much to ask. This incident is what directly led to both of them becoming the screwed up adults they did.  Maybe Hoster would've been less anguished on his death bed as well.

I am saying that not even today would parents react kindly with rapturous joy at their 14 year old daughter getting knocked up. Ante it up for medieval times and what was done is not seen as abuse. 
 

What dignity? How exactly would you handle it?

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

I am saying that not even today would parents react kindly with rapturous joy at their 14 year old daughter getting knocked up. Ante it up for medieval times and what was done is not seen as abuse. 
 

What dignity? How exactly would you handle it?

You're really being selective about the points you chose to address. Point out anywhere in this thread that I, or anyone, suggested that Hoster should've been happy about it. You can't. The topic of this thread is what Hoster could've done better. This is a rather obvious one since both Lysa and Littlefinger went on to prominent roles in their adulthoods with screwed up mindsets because of this one incident. Since you seem so adamant in contesting that point, make your own case. Argue how Littlefinger turning into a greedy scheming genius and Lysa a deranged, paranoid mother was for the best. I suspect you can't do that either. So what are you even arguing?

As for it not being "seen as abuse" I suspect Lysa would tell it differently. How about not forcing Lysa to miscarry if that's what she wants? There's plenty of bastards in Westeros, one more Rivers isn't going to shatter the world. I don't see the dignity in forcing that on a fourteen year old. Who's old enough to marry by the way. And her being "soiled goods" didn't seem to stop Hoster from marrying Lysa off to the Lord of the Vale. So forcing that on Lysa was just an exercise in petty spite on Hoster's part. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

You're really being selective about the points you chose to address. Point out anywhere in this thread that I, or anyone, suggested that Hoster should've been happy about it. You can't. The topic of this thread is what Hoster could've done better. This is a rather obvious one since both Lysa and Littlefinger went on to prominent roles in their adulthoods with screwed up mindsets because of this one incident. Since you seem so adamant in contesting that point, make your own case. Argue how Littlefinger turning into a greedy scheming genius and Lysa a deranged, paranoid mother was for the best. I suspect you can't do that either. So what are you even arguing?

As for it not being "seen as abuse" I suspect Lysa would tell it differently. How about not forcing Lysa to miscarry if that's what she wants? There's plenty of bastards in Westeros, one more Rivers isn't going to shatter the world. I don't see the dignity in forcing that on a fourteen year old. Who's old enough to marry by the way. And her being "soiled goods" didn't seem to stop Hoster from marrying Lysa off to the Lord of the Vale. So forcing that on Lysa was just an exercise in petty spite on Hoster's part. 

How is forcing a woman to miscarry a bastard not abuse in society where such things are common. By nature of it being common. If I was Hoster I’d have killed little finger and sent Lysa out to live on the streets and see how she likes that. 
 

Is Hoster supposed to know the future and predict Littlefinger? 

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How come Hoster didn't think about sending Lysa away when he found out about her pregnancy? To stay with relatives or at a motherhouse until she gave birth, or to see where the pregnancy would go, I mean. This was done with single pregnant girls when abortion was a no-no. Wouldn't that save a lot of drama? 

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19 minutes ago, Kinola said:

How come Hoster didn't think about sending Lysa away when he found out about her pregnancy? To stay with relatives or at a motherhouse until she gave birth, or to see where the pregnancy would go, I mean. This was done with single pregnant girls when abortion was a no-no. Wouldn't that save a lot of drama? 

Ambition. He wanted Lysa to marry a great lord. A woman with a bastard is not marketable. 

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I can't see anywhere that LF felt any distress at Lysa's pregnancy and the abortion that followed. He doesn't seem to care for Lysa very much - his obsession is with Cat.

As for Lysa - given the amount of prejudice in the world against bastards and 'used' women - it's likely she'd be traumatised by most possible futures. LF would refuse to marry her. Even if he did agree, Hoster would still get rid of him. She might spend decades hawked round the marriage market like Lollys. She might be an unwanted dependant like Ami. And mocked like Ami. She might have to take a drop in rank like Edric Storm's mother Delena (Lysa would not like that! **) Her child might feel shamed and resentful as do Jon and Ramsay. Lots to go wrong.

ETA

** This is typical Lysa:  "He [Robert] is Lord of the Eyrie, after all, you must never forget that. You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside."

Lysa has more pride than resilience.

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On 9/4/2021 at 11:54 AM, Lord Lannister said:

You're not wrong. No one was better at that than Tywin. Yet in the end it was his bad parenting that destroyed him and all the power he spent a lifetime accumulating for his house instantly began to slip away on his death.

I'll admit this is why I have a hard time figuring out why Stannis married Selyse Florent. She was pretty low on the totem pole at the point they married as the daughter of a third son and there wasn't much as far as gaining anything for the Crown. For all we know it was Robert's idea of a joke, marry his humorless brother to an equally humorless woman.

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16 hours ago, Hrulj said:

It is also highly likely that any such attempt would be met by hostility from the Frey’s who would either openly or covertly work to undermine your effort and prevent your cutting of their monopoly. Westeros isn’t going to go to war because some lowborn workers were roughed up or murdered, or because a warehouse caught on fire. 

You really think the Freys would do something like that? In time of war, they got away with committing horrible acts. In time of peace? Especially if Hoster Tully himself is paying for that infrastructure? He’d simply call men from his banners to enforce and secure the work sites. House Frey is strong, but sabotaging work on other men’s territory not their own? That’s a recipe for disaster if someone is captured and spills the beans. 

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