How could Hoster Tully have improved the Riverlands?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 9/11/2021 at 1:03 AM, Loose Bolt said:

When Iron Throne gave New Gift to NW major loser of that land was house Umber. Or just idea of getting that land back would be enough to make Umbers wanting independent North. Besides lack of population, fortifications and warriors in NG had made Umber lands and sometimes even Umbers targets of raids by wildings and so idea about government that would look more toward north than south would be welcome for house Umber. Or Umbers had good reasons wanting King in the North back.

Yeah, and there's no clear path of communication or anything to suggest a conspiracy between the Umbers and the Lannisters to undermine Robb before he even gets started. It's just that if anyone wanted to see the Starks taken down this whole King in the North business was a pretty good set up.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:16 PM, Hrulj said:

As for improving the Riverlands as Hoster it’s easy. If Brynden won’t marry see about getting him on Kingsguard after the rebellion. Edmure will marry Brackens eldest, and years earlier. He’s been left unmarried a decade too long. His children engaged to Frey’s, Vances, Mallisters, in that order. Provoke Blackwoods into rebellion then exterminate them and take their lands. That will make Brackens happy and show strength. Edmure is heir to Harrenhal, owns Raventree hall, heir to Brackens since they have no sons and ties Frey’s to himself. Voila. 

Provoking the Blackwoods into rebellion seems like a really bad idea, they are a old and powerfull house with a history of alliance with the Crown and other powerful house like the Stark. The riverlands are a rebellious bunch and sure Hoster would have the support of the Brackens but other houses would not exactly be happy about it. It could split the Riverlands in two, not talking about how that would be breaking the king's peace and could backfire very badly. Has a general idea trying to wipe out and usurp one of your main bannermen is just begging for it to bite you in the arse.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:37 AM, Mrstrategy said:

How could Hoster Tully had improved the Riverlands when he was was lord paramount of Riverlands  making them more powerful economically and militarily?

Marry Edmure to a Frey girl.

[Arthur Peres]

Poison Walder Frey.

Marry Edmure to a Frey.

Don't piss off Blackfish to the point he leaves. I doubt Tywin and Jaime would have the easy path if they were facing him instead of Edmure.

Marry again, produce more heir, Edmure is his only heir, than it would pass to Robb or Bran, both outsiders that "even their god are wrong". Blackfish won't marry and is just as old, Hoster need more heirs for security and potential alliances.

Ask Robert for Harrenhall as House Whent was a targeryan loyalist and deserve to be stripped of their lands and he has a claim to it through is late wife.

[BlackLightning]

I agree with the others about having Edmure marry a Frey and building bridges.

Honestly, Riverrun should be a massive market town if not a full-fledged city; I think someone mentioned that somewhere that the fact that it sits at a triangular confluence of two rivers that it would be a natural place as any to have a city. But I don't think Hoster had any control over that. I think the charters needed for cities come from the Iron Throne.

Brynden Tully should have married and had one child.

On 9/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, Hrulj said:

We have no indication of mistreatment of any of them prior to pregnancy incident. Even today in 21st century I’d be terrified of impregnating someone’s 14 year old daughter and coming up to her dad as a 14 year old. I wouldn’t expect a good reaction from her parents. Pls get an abortion would be a highly likely sentence she’ll end up hearing suggested.  Don’t ruin your lives etc. Then you put in medieval power dynamic where a boy little better than a beggar ruined and soiled his girl which literally means losing millions of dragons, alliances, tens of thousands of soldiers etc. All under his roof, by a child he treated kindly all these years and who has nothing more to offer him or his daughter than sheep shit. 

On 9/5/2021 at 2:00 PM, Kinola said:

Forcing an abortion on Lysa was a bad decision on so many levels

There are plenty of bastard children of highborn ladies running around. Delena Florent was not ruined by birthing Edric Storm and neither was Lysa. Granted, she probably wouldn't have been able to marry Jaime Lannister but she still would've gotten a couple of really good suitors. Any one of the Arryns she could've gotten

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree with the others about having Edmure marry a Frey and building bridges.

Honestly, Riverrun should be a massive market town if not a full-fledged city; I think someone mentioned that somewhere that the fact that it sits at a triangular confluence of two rivers that it would be a natural place as any to have a city. But I don't think Hoster had any control over that. I think the charters needed for cities come from the Iron Throne.

Brynden Tully should have married and had one child.

Forcing an abortion on Lysa was a bad decision on so many levels

There are plenty of bastard children of highborn ladies running around. Delena Florent was not ruined by birthing Edric Storm and neither was Lysa. Granted, she probably wouldn't have been able to marry Jaime Lannister but she still would've gotten a couple of really good suitors. Any one of the Arryns she could've gotten

Weren't some charters rejected by Kings who ruled the Riverlands?

As far as Lysa's marriage was concerned, I think marrying her to Jon Arryn might have been one of the worst options. I mean, why would you send her to close proximity to someone you know is a bad influence?

[BlackLightning]

22 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as Lysa's marriage was concerned, I think marrying her to Jon Arryn might have been one of the worst options. I mean, why would you send her to close proximity to someone you know is a bad influence?

I don't think Hoster Tully knew that Littlefinger was in Jon Arryn's confidence at the time.

I don't think Littlefinger even was in the picture at that point. But he was in Gulltown and, at some point after Robert's Rebellion (after Lysa and Jon were already married), he came into Jon Arryn's service.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I don’t like House Tully because they rebelled against the Targaryens. I would be glad to see the end of the Tullys. I am hoping for a legitimized Darry to get Riverun.  

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don’t like House Tully because they rebelled against the Targaryens. I would be glad to see the end of the Tully rule. I am hoping for a legitimized Darry to get Riverun.  

Good luck finding him. He seems to have disappeared from the books as if he was struck off.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't think Hoster Tully knew that Littlefinger was in Jon Arryn's confidence at the time.

I don't think Littlefinger even was in the picture at that point. But he was in Gulltown and, at some point after Robert's Rebellion (after Lysa and Jon were already married), he came into Jon Arryn's service.

What I mean is that Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn put her close to Baelish since he was a Lord of the Vale, and Hoster would have known that Baelish was a bad influence on Lysa.

[Hrulj]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:32 AM, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Provoking the Blackwoods into rebellion seems like a really bad idea, they are a old and powerfull house with a history of alliance with the Crown and other powerful house like the Stark. The riverlands are a rebellious bunch and sure Hoster would have the support of the Brackens but other houses would not exactly be happy about it. It could split the Riverlands in two, not talking about how that would be breaking the king's peace and could backfire very badly. Has a general idea trying to wipe out and usurp one of your main bannermen is just begging for it to bite you in the arse.

They're about equally matched with Brackens, who will side with you

Are religious heathens. Isolated from the rest of the Riverlords trough religion. Only ruler practitioners of it South of the Neck.

They're relatively recent migrants to the area. Used to rule the Wolfswood near Winterfell till Starks chased them out. 

Have no known ties and strong allies at this time. 

They're ripe for destruction. Edmure stands to inherit Harrenhal, Brackens, could seize Blackwood lands. This trio would finally make Tully's the actual strongest lords in the Riverlands and able to rule their own lands without being at someone elses mercy.  

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree with the others about having Edmure marry a Frey and building bridges.

Honestly, Riverrun should be a massive market town if not a full-fledged city; I think someone mentioned that somewhere that the fact that it sits at a triangular confluence of two rivers that it would be a natural place as any to have a city. But I don't think Hoster had any control over that. I think the charters needed for cities come from the Iron Throne.

Brynden Tully should have married and had one child.

Forcing an abortion on Lysa was a bad decision on so many levels

There are plenty of bastard children of highborn ladies running around. Delena Florent was not ruined by birthing Edric Storm and neither was Lysa. Granted, she probably wouldn't have been able to marry Jaime Lannister but she still would've gotten a couple of really good suitors. Any one of the Arryns she could've gotten

Delena Florent was married to a household knight as a result of her dalliance, when she stood to marry a high lord of at least equal rank to her. That's a massive downgrade. You do understand that? 

Lysa married an Arryn as a soiled woman but not one that birthed a bastard. With a bastard out and about best she could ever do would be Petyr. 

[sifth]

He should of educated Edmure better. He’s a pretty nice person and decent warrior/strategist, but very stupid at looking at the big picture.

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

He should of educated Edmure better. He’s a pretty nice person and decent warrior/strategist, but very stupid at looking at the big picture.

That means he was not a decent strategist. Frankly, even as a tactician I am not sure I would rate him very highly: holding off Tywin (the only thing I remember him actually doing) was basically a done deal for him as long as he wasn't a complete moron about it, thanks to the terrain which funneled Tywin at but a few chokepoints. As a strategist? He was no better than Robb was.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

11 hours ago, Hrulj said:

They're about equally matched with Brackens, who will side with you

Are religious heathens. Isolated from the rest of the Riverlords trough religion. Only ruler practitioners of it South of the Neck.

They're relatively recent migrants to the area. Used to rule the Wolfswood near Winterfell till Starks chased them out. 

Have no known ties and strong allies at this time. 

They're ripe for destruction. Edmure stands to inherit Harrenhal, Brackens, could seize Blackwood lands. This trio would finally make Tully's the actual strongest lords in the Riverlands and able to rule their own lands without being at someone elses mercy.  

Yes they are equally match with the Brackens and you would have them on your side, but the rest of the riverlands ? Destroying and usurping a vassal is not really something that happens alot in Westeros and any attemp of it would scare many other lords especially of the Tully's already made a play for Harrenhal. The rest of the lords of the Trident would be in a position to think "Will my lands and house be next ?" And more then a couple of them would most likely think yes and to not risk it oppose that move with arms. And lets not talk about breaking the kings peace, something Robert would not take kindly and since both the Tully's and Blackwood fougth for him who knows what he would decide.

They're is no real indication that religion is that much of a issue in Westeros, all points to peacefull co-habitation between the Old and news Gods for quite some time now, only Baelor (not sure) and Humphrey Teague tried it and both were opposed by large coalition (the brackens even opposed Teague) or murdered for it. So the Blackwoods are not seen has heathens outside the extremelly devout and since Hoster is lot particularly pious everyone will see that it is just a ploy to gain more power and make it more likely that it would be opposed.

Calling them recent migrants is just not serious, Yes they arrived in the Riverlands after being pushed out by the Starks but that was long before the arrival of the Andals and most likely at the very begining of the Stark unification of the North so we are talking a thousand of years. Infact they were in the Riverlands before the Vance's, the Frey's and perhaps the Piper and Ryger along others. The Blackwoods are absolutly ancient in the Riverlands and were kings in the Riverlands (something the Tully's never were.)

Also from what I could gather the Tully's and Blackwood seem to figth more often then not on the same side, againt the Teagues, the Ironborn, the Greens and the Targaryen. It would be weird for them to turn on each other, not unheard of but weird. And tho the Blackwoods dont have any allies that we know of does not mean they dont have any, some of the Frey's are related to them and other house could be, and if threaten im sure Tytos would find rather quickly a few match's for is son's and make good alliances. Something Hoster could not count on since his daugther's would be married to the Hands in charge of keeping the kings peace and to the Ruler of the only region that follows the same gods as the Blackwoods, so even if the religion question would be a point of dispute then the North would more likely side with the the Blackwoods or stay neutral.

The problem is that Edmure would already inherit Riverrun and Harrenhal, that alone would make him the most powerfull Riverlord since the conquest, ruling personnaly so much land, would the Blackwoods land be added and he would most likely command more men directly than any other Lord Paramount making him a threath not only to is other vassals but to other Lords Paramount. And with the geographical position of the Riverlands it is a very bad idea to make others feel threaten. 

In the end trying to usurp one of your more powerful vassals would plunge the Riverlands into civil war that could even be lost by the Tully's and with they're lack of legitimacy it could spell the end of they're control of the Riverlands and a new lord Paramount put in place. It is a uncertain and dangerous gamble when you could just concentrate on making sure that Edmure inherits Harrenhall as well has Riverrun wich would already make im one of the most powerfull riverlirds in history.

[Kinola]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:49 PM, Angel Eyes said:

What I mean is that Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn put her close to Baelish since he was a Lord of the Vale, and Hoster would have known that Baelish was a bad influence on Lysa.

Yeah, if they didn't want Littlefinger to get close to Lysa again, Hoster would've married Lysa off to a Riverland house or maybe a Northern house (to better strengthen alliances).

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:47 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Good luck finding him. He seems to have disappeared from the books as if he was struck off.

There must be a Darry bastard around. If not, find a knight who has proven loyalty to the dragons and make him a Darry. The families of the men who helped Ser Willem carry the royal children overseas must have living relatives. They would be worthy of lordships and honors.

[Angel Eyes]

44 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There must be a Darry bastard around. If not, find a knight who has proven loyalty to the dragons and make him a Darry. The families of the men who helped Ser Willem carry the royal children overseas must have living relatives. They would be worthy of lordships and honors.

If they are living, why wouldn't they be mentioned by now? Surely they would have been talked about by Daenerys. If they're so loyal, why did they abandon Daenerys like the rest when Ser Willem died?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The problem right now is that House Tully isn't powerful and influential enough while too many of its vassals are too strong. 

For house Tully to truly change things in the Riverlands it would need to become stronger in the long run and to weaken its vassals one by one, though such an enterprise would recquire decades or centuries much like how the French kings slowly increased their power and domain and reduced their many powerful vassals.

[TheLastWolf]

By staying alive a bit longer?

[C.T. Phipps]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:08 PM, Kinola said:

How come Hoster didn't think about sending Lysa away when he found out about her pregnancy? To stay with relatives or at a motherhouse until she gave birth, or to see where the pregnancy would go, I mean. This was done with single pregnant girls when abortion was a no-no. Wouldn't that save a lot of drama? 

Holster thought he was doing the sensible responsible thing with Lysa, I'd argue. Aborting the pregnancy is a horrible violation of her bodily autonomy but he was attempting to preserve her honor (his honor as well), the fact that a pregnancy at such an early age is dangerous, and any other issues that might have emerged from a scandal to Riverland stability.

However, Moon Tea is not safe and clearly was not safely administered. It might even have caused damage that resulted in Robin's apparent mental condition. Lysa also forever hated her father for depriving her of her school girl crush (and I say that because Lysa was sexually assaulting Littlefinger so it sure as shit wasn't love) and unborn child.

But it seems also possible Lysa wasn't playing with a full deck at 14 given her treatment of Baelish and obsession.