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On the subject of Walder Frey's loyalty (and lack thereof)


James Steller

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Someone brought up in another post that Hoster Tully should have shown Walder more respect as his bannerman. I can only assume that this would mean wedding Edmure to one of Frey's daughters or granddaughters prior to the events of AGOT (and it wouldn't have been an absurd choice of bride, given how rich and powerful the Freys apparently are). 

Do you think it would have changed anything in the main story if Hoster, and by his example, the other riverlords, had shown less snobbery towards Walder?

On the one hand, Walder deliberately didn't fight for the rebels during Robert's Rebellion, but on the other hand, the other houses have always been known to look down their noses at House Frey, even though they've been a noble house for literally centuries. One of their family members was a heroic figure during the Dance of the Dragons (and yes, she married into House Frey, but she still counts far as her last name indicates). You'd think people would get past the Freys' low origins given that half the noble houses started from equally humble roots. 

On the other hand, Walder's clearly got a scheming mind and a mean streak. He's known to be devious and lecherous, and even though he's good enough to look after all his kids, legitimate and illegitimate alike, he's still a hypocrite at the end of the day. Just look at how he was willing to slaughter his guests to avenge a marriage slight but also laughs off the death of a 'useless' grandson who never did anyone any harm.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

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45 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Someone brought up in another post that Hoster Tully should have shown Walder more respect as his bannerman

Hoster Tully should have shown a lot of people more respect (Lysa, Peter, Jon A, Tywin/Tyrion)

45 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I can only assume that this would mean wedding Edmure to one of Frey's daughters or granddaughters prior to the events of AGOT (and it wouldn't have been an absurd choice of bride, given how rich and powerful the Freys apparently are). 

Do you think it would have changed anything in the main story

With Edmure, ch'ah. Walders not gonna strong arm Cat if Roslin or whomever is captured with Hoster, Edmure and Riverrun by the Kingslayer.

45 minutes ago, James Steller said:

, the other riverlords, had shown less snobbery towards Walder?

They collectively seem chill enough, Walder managed to hitch his family to lots of their houses.

56 minutes ago, James Steller said:

On the one hand, Walder deliberately didn't fight for the rebels during Robert's Rebellion,

Word. So, like lord Goodbrook he didn't fight for the rebellion but unlike Goodbrook, the late Walder mustered his men and stared down Hoster, likely saving every single one of his subjects.

59 minutes ago, James Steller said:

but on the other hand, the other houses have always been known to look down their noses at House Frey, even though they've been a noble house for literally centuries. One of their family members was a heroic figure during the Dance of the Dragons (and yes, she married into House Frey, but she still counts far as her last name indicates). You'd think people would get past the Freys' low origins given that half the noble houses started from equally humble roots. 

Idk if the origin story is the revolting part, Walder fronts like it is, that his house is upjumped and not ancient so Stark and look down their cold noses at em, but they don't do that with Tully or even Bailish. I think its just classical jealousy of thou shall envy your rich neighbor. 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

On the other hand, Walder's clearly got a scheming mind and a mean streak. He's known to be devious and lecherous, and even though he's good enough to look after all his kids, legitimate and illegitimate alike, he's still a hypocrite at the end of the day. Just look at how he was willing to slaughter his guests to avenge a marriage slight but also laughs off the death of a 'useless' grandson who never did anyone any harm.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Walder Frey can go fuck himself. Mass murdering psychopathic weasel.

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

On the one hand, Walder deliberately didn't fight for the rebels during Robert's Rebellion, but on the other hand, the other houses have always been known to look down their noses at House Frey, even though they've been a noble house for literally centuries.

So essentially, I think Hoster Tully should have understood what Walder Frey was about from this right here. I think House Tully absolutely underestimated House Frey because their somewhat pretentious judgments of House Frey being “upstarts”. 
 

Ultimately I think the Riverlands needs an extremely intelligent Lord/Lady. The Tully’s were honorable and dutiful, but their practicality and intellect were somewhat lacking.  Catelyns inability to see how problematic it was to take Tyrion into custody kinda shows that she’s much more heart than head. 
I think if Hoster Tully had perhaps warded one of Frey’s sons or brought Walder closer into the family, Walter would have went for it and probably end up being closer to House Tully, but I do expect he would have wanted a marriage in the long run. Or perhaps he could have held the carrot of Harrenhall over Walder’s head.  He knew that House Whent wasn’t exactly going anywhere, and that Catelyn or Edmure were the basically only people who could lay claim to it, he could have just gotten their ok and given it over to a son of House Frey, to kinda satiate their list for power, but also giving away something that doesn’t really give much value.  Hoster seemed to not understand people, look at his relationship with the Blackfysh. 

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2 hours ago, James Steller said:

Do you think it would have changed anything in the main story if Hoster, and by his example, the other riverlords, had shown less snobbery towards Walder?

Up to the point when Robb Stark screwed him over.  That was too big an affront to forgive.  Walder gave Robb everything and more.  Robb pays him back with insults and betrayals.  Yes Walder will be a loyal bannerman if you show him respect from the beginning.  Forget the second hand snipes from the Starks and the Tullys.  What we know about Walder, he carries through on his agreement.  Screw him over and he will do the same back to you. 

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11 minutes ago, James West said:

Up to the point when Robb Stark screwed him over.  That was too big an affront to forgive.  Walder gave Robb everything and more.  Robb pays him back with insults and betrayals.  Yes Walder will be a loyal bannerman if you show him respect from the beginning.  Forget the second hand snipes from the Starks and the Tullys.  What we know about Walder, he carries through on his agreement.  Screw him over and he will do the same back to you. 

Agreed, but you mistake me. Walder deliberately held back from fighting, which led to him holding the Twins against Robb and Catelyn when they arrived. Other riverlords didn't demand deals from Robb before agreeing to assist him. The Mallisters, Vances, Pipers, hell, even the Blackwoods and the Brackens both joined in on the same side. The Freys might have done the same thing, but they used bargaining power to take advantage of the situation instead of being loyal bannermen. 

My question is, was there a possibility that Walder would have shown loyalty from the start if he and his family were shown more courtesy and respect by the other riverlords? And I mean before Robert's Rebellion, even. Would Walder have been so sour and selfish if he'd never been sneered at or disrespected? I know it's a complicated situation, and there's no sure answer, but I'm wondering how much of Walder's toxicity was due to nature, nurture, or outside forces.

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I would love to read more on a young lord Frey. I see him as a shy young man who blushes and stutters around women. Treasuring ever woman no matter their birth as a Queen. Until he has a run in with a Crakehall. :) 

My third wife was a Crakehall, all of the Crakehall women are sluts. Well, never mind about that, she died before you were born, what do you care?

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2 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I would love to read more on a young lord Frey. I see him as a shy young man who blushes and stutters around women. Treasuring ever woman no matter their birth as a Queen. Until he has a run in with a Crakehall. :) 

My third wife was a Crakehall, all of the Crakehall women are sluts. Well, never mind about that, she died before you were born, what do you care?

We do catch a glimspe of a very young Walder, who would become Lord of the Crossing. I do not have the exact quote in front of me but I believe Dunk wanted to throw him down a well in the Mystery Knight. 

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Walder's charming personality aside(which if the RW never happened this fanbase would probably find hilarious), he actively advances the interests of his house. I really have no issue with him staying on the sidelines during the rebellion or with him getting the best deal he can out of Robb when he's in a tight spot. 

I really don't even blame him for jumping ship when Robb betrayed their marriage pact and it was looking like Robb was a losing cause. If Walder had just closed the Twins and declared for the Lannisters, most everyone would probably agree Robb had that coming. Walder's problem is he took it too far. The Red Wedding was just a gratuitous orgy of killing and spite. Maybe he got a bit more in the way of reward since he fully "committed" himself, but in the long term all the ill will the Red Wedding created is likely to be disastrous for House Frey. 

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21 hours ago, James Steller said:

Do you think it would have changed anything in the main story if Hoster, and by his example, the other riverlords, had shown less snobbery towards Walder?

Walder always was a bad guy and had a horrible personality. This is him aged 4:

"Lord Frey of the Crossing was a lean man elegant in blue and grey, his heir a chinless boy of four whose nose was dripping snot.

...

His melancholy ponderings were rudely interrupted when a troupe of painted dwarfs came bursting from the belly of a wheeled wooden pig to chase Lord Butterwell's fool about the tables, walloping him with inflated pig's bladders that made rude noises every time a blow was struck. It was the funniest thing Dunk had seen in years, and he laughed with all the rest. Lord Frey's son was so taken by their antics that he joined in, pummeling the wedding guests with a bladder borrowed from a dwarf. The child had the most irritating laugh Dunk had ever heard, a high shrill hiccup of a laugh that made him want to take the boy over a knee or throw him down a well. If he hits me with that bladder, I may do it.
"There's the lad who made this marriage," Ser Maynard said as the  chinless urchin went screaming past.
"How so?" The Fiddler held up an empty wine cup, and a passing server filled it.
Ser Maynard glanced toward the dais, where the bride was feeding cherries to her husband.
"His Lordship will not be the first to butter that biscuit. His bride was deflowered by a scullion at the Twins, they say. She would creep down to the kitchens to meet him. Alas, one night that little brother of hers crept down after her. When he saw them making the two-backed beast, he let out a shriek, and cooks and guardsmen came running and found milady and her pot boy coupling on the slab of marble where the cook rolls out the dough, both naked as their name day and floured up from head to heel." "

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Freys could have ended Robb's rebellion against Iron Throne and doom Tullys just by defending their castle. Or without active support of Freys Riverrun would had fallen to Jaime and that would have meant end of house Tully. After all if that had happened most Riverlords would had knelt to king Joffrey and almost certainly RR and overlordship of Riverlands would had given to new lord. 

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23 hours ago, James West said:

Up to the point when Robb Stark screwed him over.  That was too big an affront to forgive.  Walder gave Robb everything and more.  Robb pays him back with insults and betrayals.  Yes Walder will be a loyal bannerman if you show him respect from the beginning.  Forget the second hand snipes from the Starks and the Tullys.  What we know about Walder, he carries through on his agreement.  Screw him over and he will do the same back to you. 

No.  Walder had just grounds for complaint, when Robb broke the betrothal.  He could have broken off the alliance, switched sides even.

But, he negotiated a fresh deal, and then he broke it.  And, he violated one of the most solemn taboos in his world by murdering thousands of people under guest right.

And so, according to older laws of retribution and punishment, every man is entitled to descend on the Twins, massacre every living creature there, burn the stronghold to the ground and sow it with salt.

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The Freys have played a role in their history prior to this Lord Walder.

Walder earns distrust through his actions in the rebellion. Just because his bridge revenue allows him to generate a lot of income does not mean his overlords should cow tow to his desires and marry into his house. With that said, there should have been some effort by Walder after the Rebellion to make up. And if it did happen but Hoster did not allow it, the blame goes both ways.

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11 hours ago, nyser1 said:

The Freys have played a role in their history prior to this Lord Walder.

Walder earns distrust through his actions in the rebellion. Just because his bridge revenue allows him to generate a lot of income does not mean his overlords should cow tow to his desires and marry into his house. With that said, there should have been some effort by Walder after the Rebellion to make up. And if it did happen but Hoster did not allow it, the blame goes both ways.

The trouble with an old narcissist like Walder is that he expects Hoster Tully to fawn over him like Walder personally saved him from a killing blow instead of turning up after the battle was all over.

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8 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

The trouble with an old narcissist like Walder is that he expects Hoster Tully to fawn over him like Walder personally saved him from a killing blow instead of turning up after the battle was all over.

I was thinking about before even the Battle of the Trident. I'm assuming that people were still less than fond of Walder back then, and maybe it was deserved due to his personality, but I if his personality caused men to disrespect him or if it was the other way around. Several of Shakespeare's villains decide to embrace evil and become the monster that people already think they are. Aaron in Titus Andronicus, Richard of Gloucester in several plays, including Richard III, etc. There was also a line in Oliver Stone's "Nixon" where Henry Kissinger muses what Nixon would have been like if someone had just loved him. I wonder if Walder is another one of those figures.

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8 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

The trouble with an old narcissist like Walder is that he expects Hoster Tully to fawn over him like Walder personally saved him from a killing blow instead of turning up after the battle was all over.

Except that Hoster neither fawned over him nor ignored him, not even given him the basic respect a vassal is due but seemed hellbent on slighting him over and over again, and then demanding unquestioned loyalty in return. If it were any other character being treated as such people wouldn't stand for it. 

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1 minute ago, Hrulj said:

Except that Hoster neither fawned over him nor ignored him, not even given him the basic respect a vassal is due but seemed hellbent on slighting him over and over again, and then demanding unquestioned loyalty in return. If it were any other character being treated as such people wouldn't stand for it. 

We already have a similar example with Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin treats Tyrion like dirt, resents him for things that are mostly beyond his control, and yet he also expects Tyrion's obedience and unquestioned loyalty to the family's advancement.

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Just now, James Steller said:

We already have a similar example with Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin treats Tyrion like dirt, resents him for things that are mostly beyond his control, and yet he also expects Tyrion's obedience and unquestioned loyalty to the family's advancement.

Except that Tyrion does have control over spending his own money on whores and bedding them so publicly that he has a reputation from Oldtown to the Wall which goes before him. He was also given several chances to prove his worth to Tywin, from being put in charge of water cisterns, which he could have used to actually build better, build a bathhouse or make it more efficient. Instead he hired lowborn workers and had sex with prostitutes. He was given the greatest power in the land, he wasted it on petty arguments with his sister, rivalry and threats born of bringing a whore with him despite being explicitly told not to. Being told to murder all that oppose him on the council and leaving Baelish alive, despite knowing firsthand Baelish was the one to blame for getting him arrested and kidnapped by Catelyn. Instead he brutalizes Pycelle for telling his own sister about his plans for her children. Tyrion is unfit to rule anything.

Walder does his duties when treated right. Hoster married a Whent, nobodies who were given Harrenhal for serving Lothstons, but he was too good for Freys. He or his sons. And instilled the same belief into his children

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21 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Except that Tyrion does have control over spending his own money on whores and bedding them so publicly that he has a reputation from Oldtown to the Wall which goes before him. He was also given several chances to prove his worth to Tywin, from being put in charge of water cisterns, which he could have used to actually build better, build a bathhouse or make it more efficient. Instead he hired lowborn workers and had sex with prostitutes. He was given the greatest power in the land, he wasted it on petty arguments with his sister, rivalry and threats born of bringing a whore with him despite being explicitly told not to. Being told to murder all that oppose him on the council and leaving Baelish alive, despite knowing firsthand Baelish was the one to blame for getting him arrested and kidnapped by Catelyn. Instead he brutalizes Pycelle for telling his own sister about his plans for her children. Tyrion is unfit to rule anything.

Walder does his duties when treated right. Hoster married a Whent, nobodies who were given Harrenhal for serving Lothstons, but he was too good for Freys. He or his sons. And instilled the same belief into his children

I was thinking more of the fact that Tywin resents Tyrion for being a dwarf, and for inadvertently killing his mother. Right from the beginning, Tywin denied Tyrion privileges which he would have normally had. To say nothing of the fact that he had a teenage girl gang-raped, including by Tyrion, then made Tyrion think that she'd never loved him in the first place. This naturally drove Tyrion towards the bad behaviour which you described.

Tyrion might be deeply flawed, and I daresay he's turning into a monster, but he is ultimately a tragic figure. If he's a monster, then he was a monster made, not born. Tywin, the true monster, warped his own son with years of abuse and emotional neglect. 

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8 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I was thinking more of the fact that Tywin resents Tyrion for being a dwarf, and for inadvertently killing his mother. Right from the beginning, Tywin denied Tyrion privileges which he would have normally had. To say nothing of the fact that he had a teenage girl gang-raped, including by Tyrion, then made Tyrion think that she'd never loved him in the first place. This naturally drove Tyrion towards the bad behaviour which you described.

Tyrion might be deeply flawed, and I daresay he's turning into a monster, but he is ultimately a tragic figure. If he's a monster, then he was a monster made, not born. Tywin, the true monster, warped his own son with years of abuse and emotional neglect. 

He definitely does, but his dismissal of Tyrion as capable administrator definitely comes from Tyrions own actions and inability to function in society. 

In Tywins eyes the marriage of the common girl to Tyrion was the greatest threat to his entire house since his own father. 800 years of rule and Frey's are still not considered noble enough, marrying a commoner as heir to Westerlands would tarnish the Lannister name forever and ever. It's absolute show of madness and ill suitedness by Tyrion to marry a girl after a week of knowing her. 

No one made Tyrion use prostitutes, publicly to shame his father. 

No one made him rape sex slaves when he left.

No one made him think himself better than and disgusted by other dwarfs such as Penny. She was nice to him and he brushes her off and is repelled by her efforts. 

No one made Tyrion waste his handship away on a single ploy - which failed and were it not for Tywin and Tyrels showing up would have caused the death of Tyrion, the King himself, Lancel, Cercei and others, and would have signaled the loss of the war for Lannister cause. 

No one made Tyrion threaten to rape Tommen for the sake of a prostitute.

No one made him believe that a prostitute was with him out of love and not money.

No one made him believe that a mercenary whose every second word is "how much will you pay me" will be loyal without payment. 

Tyrion is unsuited to rule, unsuited to head family, and would bring Lannisters to ruin. Verbal smackdowns of those who can't retaliate by deed or by word don't account for much

 

There is also no hint that Tywin didn't or wouldn't treat his other children the same if Cercei decided to marry a random minstrel or Jaime deciding to shame the family. Everything we see of Tywin is trough Tyrions warped mind and perception of him. The man believes everyone hates him for being a dwarf and not for being an abrasive, spiteful man with a chip on his shoulder. 

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1 minute ago, Hrulj said:

He definitely does, but his dismissal of Tyrion as capable administrator definitely comes from Tyrions own actions and inability to function in society. 

In Tywins eyes the marriage of the common girl to Tyrion was the greatest threat to his entire house since his own father. 800 years of rule and Frey's are still not considered noble enough, marrying a commoner as heir to Westerlands would tarnish the Lannister name forever and ever. It's absolute show of madness and ill suitedness by Tyrion to marry a girl after a week of knowing her. 

No one made Tyrion use prostitutes, publicly to shame his father. 

No one made him rape sex slaves when he left.

No one made him think himself better than and disgusted by other dwarfs such as Penny. She was nice to him and he brushes her off and is repelled by her efforts. 

No one made Tyrion waste his handship away on a single ploy - which failed and were it not for Tywin and Tyrels showing up would have caused the death of Tyrion, the King himself, Lancel, Cercei and others, and would have signaled the loss of the war for Lannister cause. 

No one made Tyrion threaten to rape Tommen for the sake of a prostitute.

No one made him believe that a prostitute was with him out of love and not money.

No one made him believe that a mercenary whose every second word is "how much will you pay me" will be loyal without payment. 

Tyrion is unsuited to rule, unsuited to head family, and would bring Lannisters to ruin. Verbal smackdowns of those who can't retaliate by deed or by word don't account for much

Again, I know Tyrion does monstrous things during the events of the books, but I believe they are a result of a truly deplorable childhood. And don't tell me that he should have been fine just because he was part of a wealthy house. He had no friends, only a few people who were ever nice to him, and again, Tywin forced him to have sex with his wife after making him watch the household guards use her, and I dread to imagine the emotional state Tysha must have been in at the time. Tyrion's clearly got severe PTSD from that experience alone, and then when Jaime admitted the full truth, it broke him so that yes, he was sexually assaulting slaves, abusing other dwarfs like Penny. This isn't a case of Tyrion being born a monster. I don't condone his actions, but I do pity him; he could have been such a better person. He could have been happy with Tysha if his father hadn't been such a horrible human being. And yes, the society is messed up, but Tywin goes beyond the norm. 

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