The Others are Weapons: An Ironborn Problem, May Take an Iceborn Solution

[OberynBlackfyre]

Ok everyone, there really is no TL;DR here, so you may have to be ready for a long read here.  The best I can shorten it to is I believe there could be a solid theory that the First Men/ COTF had encounters/wars with the Ironborn, and that could have been what triggered the first Long Night. 
 

 

First things first, we have to look at what we think the Others/White Walkers/White Mist actually ARE.  From the show, we simply think of them as a symbology for death itself.  However, in the actual books the White Walkers seem to essentially just be one of the Elder Races, same as the Children of the Forest, Giants, direwolves, etc.    They also almost seem like a combination of first men, enhanced or changed by the magic of Children of the Forest.  Sure, we see them use Necromancy- but we ALSO see Valyrians, R’Hllor, etc. also using blood magic that had to do with spirits and possible Necromancy. 
 

***Now, we go on a tangent to a story that has A LOT of the story of Ice and Fire within it.  I wouldn’t say ASOIAF is derivative of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn- however there is a lot of the same story being told in homage to it.  
 

In this story, a first race of human men come to Osten Ard (the country in which the story is told in), however they learn to live with the Sithi, which are a tall pale type of magical beings, called “the fair folk”.  It is not until a new race/culture of men the Rimmersmen, sail OUT OF THE WEST, that they decide to destroy the Sithi and bring war to the North, triggering a lot of magical and cultural issues, such as the vanishing of most the Sithi.  The Rimmersmen are said to be fierce and carry weapons that are far above the level that the other men had, and the Sithi couldn’t even fight against with their “Witchwood” weapons. 
 

Now, we bring that back to A Song of Ice and Fire   We know from the history of the First Men, that while they DID conquer large parts of Westeros, but that they actually came to an agreement in The Pact.  Now, from our understanding this came before the Long Night, and before the Andals came to Westeros. So what exactly happened that could have triggered something like the Long Night? 
 

Enter The Ironborn: 

 

-we know from the World Book that the Ironborn were contemporary with the First Men, as many Maesters believe that they actually were First Men who had simply become sea faring.  There are no other cases of First Men actually sailing  

 

-We are told stories like that of Balon Blackskin, that had skin dark and that could not be penetrated by any form of weapon.  In this same space we see talk of them having “black swords that drank the souls of the slain”  this is all very much evocative to Dragonsteel aka Valyrian steel weapons and armor, a few thousand years before Valyria was even a power  

 

-On Nagga’s Hill, there has been many theories about Nagga’s bones being the petrified or old parts of a boat that was made of Weirwood   This makes sense as Sea Dragon Point is a place held by the Ironborn many times, and would have been the logical place for them to land in the North the first time.  We also know that Sea Dragon Point is also one of the places in the North that still boasts many Weirwood Circles.  Given that the Ironborn have legends of one of their heroes killing a “man eating white tree”, it fits that if there was a race of people on the Iron Islands who came to Westeros in the days of the First Men, they were not friendly to the Weirwoods and the Old Gods   
 

-The “Black Blood” found within the Ironborn is brought up many times, and the Iron Born do seem to have suspicious backgrounds concerning their origin.  I and many others actually believe that they could have been those exiled who followed the Bloodstone Emperor from the Great Empire of Dawn, or perhaps they were simply refugees from that calamity.  The reason we link them so much with the Bloodstone Emperor is because of the Seastone Chair, which is made out of an “oily black rock”  this is interesting considering that the Bloodstone Emperor praised a “black rock that fell from the sky”.  
 

-There is also much to be said that there could have been people fleeing the Great Empire of the Dawn, from all sorts of different factions. You have the Ironborn in the North of the Sunset Sea, yet you also have the Daynes and Hightower’s in the Southern Sunset sea  who also have strange Valyrian ties, like the sword Dawn, Valyrian in all features except the color and that it also predates Valyria, but also that both the Hightower’s and Daynes have Valyrian features, but are actually Houses that predate Valyria and even the Andals  You also get strange fused black stone on the base of the Hightower, and the stories of dragons on a certain Battle Isle. 
the reason we look to the Ironborn starting the Long Night and the other proto Dawnians being absolved is due to certain dualities.  The sword Dawn is evocative to Dawnbringer, which stopped the Long Night  to where on the Iron islands there is a sword called Nightfall.  The fused stone and magical yet noble demeanor of the House is very much adversarial to the bloodthirsty nature of the Ironborn and the daunting Seastone chair that is shaped in an eldritch fashion of a “kraken”, and is said to be oily to the touch.  
 

-This also mirrors much of what is already occurring.  If the Ironborn had attacked Westeros, it is easy to believe they would have attacked the North, which is the stronghold of the Faith at the time, since the North had always been and still is the bastion of the Old Gods.  The last time they did this is was that put House Stark in control of the North, this time is what brought down House Stark for the moment, and put the North into turmoil.  
 

-Did Aegon Targaryen know something about the Iron Born triggering something, or was that part of his worry?   He attacks Westeros during the only time in History (at least from our knowledge at the moment) That the Ironborn had been able not only to move into Westeros, but hold the Riverlands for more than a generation.  So much so that House Durrandon and the Stormlanders were more than close to losing their lands to Harren the Black.  Not to mention, very much like the Bloodstone Emperor, Harren put Weirwood and some blood magic into the making of Harrenhall. What is strange, Aegon goes on to completely destroy the lines of the two “magical” bloodlines, which is House Gardener and House Hoare.  
 

- Finally, we get to Euron Greyjoy.  We know that he is a HUGE allegory to the Bloodstone Emperor.  He is trying to usurp the Amethyst Empress yet again, in the form of Daenerys, and trying to steal one or all her dragons   Not only that, he is the one who brings in the first true blood magic item we see in the series, the Dragonhorn called Dragonbinder.  And then, in the TWOW sample chapter called “The Forsaken”, we see Euron in something that the ONLY other time we have it referenced, is during the chapter of when the Ironborn is first introduced- a suit of Valyrian Steel armor.  

 

 

anyway you guys, this is long enough  but essentially what I’m boiling down it is that it is possible that the Ironborn are linked to those who actually bring on the Long Night.  And given the fact that the First Men and Children of the Forest were being raised by them, possibly with Ironborn who had dragon weapons and armor, the only thing that they could do was create the White Walkers as a weapon? Or call upon the White Walkers as a force of nature?  Maybe we should stop thinking of the Others/White Walkers are a purely bad death force, and maybe the weapon to use against fighting the actual threat? We’ve seen fire in somewhat “benevolent” hands through Daenerys, but if we look closely at that the dragons and power of fire, if they even were used for any type of true bad leader, they could potentially be disastrous. 

 

 

[the Other Wolf]

1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

 From the show

There is supposed to be ZERO references to the show in the BOOK ONLY forum. 

[OberynBlackfyre]

4 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

There is supposed to be ZERO references to the show in the BOOK ONLY forum. 

Okey day, edited it out!  Not that it changes it much, but I ty for the heads up! 

[James West]

George R R Martin has accepted ideas from H P Lovecraft.  The Others are the equivalent of the Deep Ones.  Here they are the Cold Ones.  Bran and the Starks are the cult of the Great Other.  They followed the Great Other.  The Others were in Westeros before man. 

[Hrulj]

No it is not possible. Black blood refers to Hoare's, not Ironborn in general. They were black of hair, black of eye and black of soul - the latter of which is inspired by their tolerance of other Religions on the Isles, including the Faith of the Seven. Hoares were hated for their tolerance.

Ironborn themselves are not some foreign invaders, they are the only first men who actually preserved their own religion rather than give it up for manipulations of Children of the Forrest or Andal Faith of the Seven. No such group exists even beyond the wall. 

While the Drowned God to us may be evocative of an Eldritch demon dwelling in the deeps there is no indication story wise that anyone is terrified of him, or that he even punishes those that abandon him save by turning his back to them and refusing them entry to his watery halls. There is no hell, no eternal damnation and suffering. The God seems generally benevolent and a product of Island people to humanize the sea and give themselves a belief in a better afterlife in the deeps. 

Euron is a Godless man - he is not a zealous believer in Drowned God, but a madman that is probably trying to usurp him. His actions are not due to following the will of the Drowned God but due to his rejection of it. I can't even remember any characters in Ironborn history that acted similar to Euron. He seems to be a complete utlier in terms of normalcy and behavior among the Ironborn. 

[OberynBlackfyre]

23 hours ago, Hrulj said:

 

No it is not possible. Black blood refers to Hoare's, not Ironborn in general. They were black of hair, black of eye and black of soul - the latter of which is inspired by their tolerance of other Religions on the Isles, including the Faith of the Seven. Hoares were hated for their tolerance.

 

This is what I believed as well, however it does not account for the fact that the First  Men were NOT seafaring.    That explained with the contemporary reports of the First Men being attacked by Ironborn that are basically described to have Valyrian aka Dragonsteel. “Black swords that drink the souls of the fallen” and the mention of Balon Blackskin, which as pointed out, the ONLY mention we have of Valyrian steel armor is of an Ironborn, and the only time we SEE Valyrian steel armor, is from an Ironborn. 
 

 

as to the black blood, i mention House Hoare specifically. 

[Hrulj]

1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

This is what I believed as well, however it does not account for the fact that the First  Men were NOT seafaring.    That explained with the contemporary reports of the First Men being attacked by Ironborn that are basically described to have Valyrian aka Dragonsteel. “Black swords that drink the souls of the fallen” and the mention of Balon Blackskin, which as pointed out, the ONLY mention we have of Valyrian steel armor is of an Ironborn, and the only time we SEE Valyrian steel armor, is from an Ironborn. 
 

 

as to the black blood, i mention House Hoare specifically. 

I firmly believe that in 8000 years of history first men would learn what a boat was or how to sail one. Black swords that drink soul can simply be iron. Hence Iron-born. First men used bronze weapons. 
 

Valyrian steel scavenged form Valyria, not brought up from some vault on Pyke. And all Valyrian swords the Ironborn have were gained trough pillage or cunning.