Beric and resurrection

[Orion2]

I was just telling someone about the scene where beric tell thoros that hes been resurrected to many times, and tells him like "I had a home once, and a mother, but I can't remember it or her face. I was betrothed once, I know that, but I remember nothing of it. Was I born on this battle field? are you my mother?" anyway that shit makes me want to cry. Idk if y'all have any scenes that have been making you feel some type of way lately. 

[Mister Smikes]

Well, it is sad that Beric is dead, and it is even sadder that his corpse is inhabited by some dubious force that is making use of some aspects of his mind and memory.  But I don't see the words you quote as sad, so much as I see them as clues that UnBeric is not Beric.  Beric is dead; and UnBeric is, as he suspects, another being, born when Thoros breathed fire into Beric's corpse.  UnBeric is a relatively benign manifestation of the dark powers that created him; but it is only going to get worse from hereon out, with UnCat and any future fire wights GRRM introduces into the story.

Similarly, Lady Stoneheart is not Catelyn, and that Thing that Jaime met at midnight was not Brienne.

 

[The Commentator]

8 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, it is sad that Beric is dead, and it is even sadder that his corpse is inhabited by some dubious force that is making use of some aspects of his mind and memory.  But I don't see the words you quote as sad, so much as I see them as clues that UnBeric is not Beric.  Beric is dead; and UnBeric is, as he suspects, another being, born when Thoros breathed fire into Beric's corpse.  UnBeric is a relatively benign manifestation of the dark powers that created him; but it is only going to get worse from hereon out, with UnCat and any future fire wights GRRM introduces into the story.

Similarly, Lady Stoneheart is not Catelyn, and that Thing that Jaime met at midnight was not Brienne.

 

It will be the same when Jon comes back as a wight. At least some of his memory will be gone. The storage capacity of the wolf’s mind won’t have enough space. 

[Lord Lannister]

I'm sad the interestingly tragic character that was Beric just gave himself up for the sake of Stoneheart. So much more story potential with Beric's slow decent into oblivion than Stoneheart the mindless hate zombie.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm sad the interestingly tragic character that was Beric just gave himself up for the sake of Stoneheart. So much more story potential with Beric's slow decent into oblivion than Stoneheart the mindless hate zombie.

Yeah, why'd he do that?

Why'd Nym pull Cat's body out of the river in the first place for that matter?  Arya watched it happen, but there was no indication that Arya recognized Cat's body and dragged her ashore for some sort of funerary or raw sentimental reason, she watched Nymeria do it, but that was the extent of her involvement.

Then the Brotherhood shows up and Beric does his thing, despite the advice of Thoros and the obvious deterioration to Cat's body.

Why?

 

[Orion2]

@Mister Smikes bruh if you dont wanna talk about it being sad or other scenes that effected you emotionally then get tf off my thread. This aint about unberic 

[Mister Smikes]

15 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Why'd Nym pull Cat's body out of the river in the first place for that matter?  Arya watched it happen, but there was no indication that Arya recognized Cat's body and dragged her ashore for some sort of funerary or raw sentimental reason, she watched Nymeria do it, but that was the extent of her involvement.

Seems like a typical dog thing to me.  If dog sees family (and Catelyn was family) floating in river, dog tries to rescue family member by pulling her out of river.  We don't even need to appeal to Nym's psychic connection to Arya, but I don't see the need to ignore that either. When we consider Nym's psychic connection to Arya, it is even harder to see this as a mystery.

15 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Then the Brotherhood shows up and Beric does his thing, despite the advice of Thoros and the obvious deterioration to Cat's body.

Why?

Ah, well, that is rather more inexplicable, at least in human terms.  And I suspect that part of the answer is that Beric is no longer human.  And the dark death force animating him can make more effective use of Stoneheart than it could of Beric. 

GRRM said in an SSM that fire wights are driven by their oaths.  But I'm not sure what oath Beric took that could be to read require him to resurrect Catelyn.

Catelyn, however, did take an oath that she would not keep Brienne from her oath of taking Renly's sword and slaying Renly's slayer.

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

eems like a typical dog thing to me.  If dog sees family (and Catelyn was family) floating in river, dog tries to rescue family member by pulling her out of river.  We don't even need to appeal to Nym's psychic connection to Arya, but I don't see the need to ignore that either. When we consider Nym's psychic connection to Arya, it is even harder to see this as a mystery.

She didn't see it, she smelt it. A dead body face down and floating among other dead bodies in a river. What was Cat 2, 3 days dead at that point? I don’t doubt that a wolf could smell the corpse.  I do doubt that there would be any of Cat’s smells left in the milieu that could be identified though and that's why I'm open to there being more at play here than a just a wolf seeing a companion's family member and dragging it ashore as an attempted rescue. The coincidental arrival of the brotherhood makes me suspicious that these were somehow coordinated events.

I also don't see how any self respecting dark deathforce could see itself better served hosted by a mute and decayed Catelyn Stark than rebuilt sword swinging knight and lord Beric, but I'll grant for now that said dark deathforce is playing his cards close to his chest.

BTW, you're pretty certain that Brienne was killed then, huh?  Is that a second enitity animating her or do you think that the same thing that was in Beric and moved to Cat is now in Brienne?  Or something else?

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

She didn't see it, she smelt it.

On that point, I stand corrected.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

A dead body face down and floating among other dead bodies in a river. What was Cat 2, 3 days dead at that point? I don’t doubt that a wolf could smell the corpse.  I do doubt that there would be any of Cat’s smells left in the milieu that could be identified though and that's why I'm open to there being more at play here than a just a wolf seeing a companion's family member and dragging it ashore as an attempted rescue. The coincidental arrival of the brotherhood makes me suspicious that these were somehow coordinated events.

If you re-read the passage from the point where Arya falls asleep, it becomes quite explicit that Nym smells Catelyn, distinguishes her scent from all the other dead bodies in the river, and seeks her out specifically.  Nym seems to think of Catelyn as a member of her pack, and seems to hope, against all logic, that Catelyn will rise and run with them.

As it turns out, UnCat does rise.  Which under the circumstances I think could be mere coincidence, though I will not say it is necessarily only that.

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I also don't see how any self respecting dark deathforce could see itself better served hosted by a mute and decayed Catelyn Stark than rebuilt sword swinging knight and lord Beric, but I'll grant for now that said dark deathforce is playing his cards close to his chest.

Well, GRRM did say that red wights are driven by their oaths.  A dark death force might find Catelyn's dying oaths more useful to spreading death than the relatively benign and noble goals of Beric (though it could be argued that even Beric's oaths became twisted and degraded in undeath).

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BTW, you're pretty certain that Brienne was killed then, huh? 

Well, I am obliged to disclaim that it is only a theory.  But yeah, I really do believe it is correct.  If it turns out to be untrue, I will be forced to say "I was wrong".

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Is that a second entity animating her or do you think that the same thing that was in Beric and moved to Cat is now in Brienne?  Or something else?

That is more uncertain.  Thoros is still around, and serving Stoneheart, and I see nothing indicating that he cannot still perform the kiss of fire one or two more times on Stoneheart's orders.  And Beric received six "charges" of the kiss of fire, and passed them all on to Stoneheart.   Assuming Stoneheart faces any limit at all, perhaps she can pass on 5 kisses, before she lies down herself.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

45 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

If you re-read the passage from the point where Arya falls asleep, it becomes quite explicit that Nym smells Catelyn, distinguishes her scent from all the other dead bodies in the river, and seeks her out specifically.

Yes. I suspect that this is impossible.  Too much decay, too much time, too many bodies. Cat's been floating in the river and I just can't believe that any distinctive, signature Catelyn Stark smell would have remained. What would it have been in the first place, her hair, perfume, her particular flavour of BO? I don't think any of those things would be able to assert themselves over the funk of death that must have permeated the area around the other corpses.

 

49 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That is more uncertain.  Thoros is still around, and serving Stoneheart, and I see nothing indicating that he cannot still perform the kiss of fire one or two more times on Stoneheart's orders.  And Beric received six "charges" of the kiss of fire, and passed them all on to Stoneheart.   Assuming Stoneheart faces any limit at all, perhaps she can pass on 5 kisses, before she lies down herself.

Interesting. There are theories that I've read that I like more, but there's nothing here I would dismiss.

It could be that these were coincidental events. I think one of the brothers says at one point that they were there hunting the wolfpack or something to that effect, so it doesn't have to be a very extreme coincidence. It all just seems very neat and tidy to me, and to me, anything that neat and tidy is likely contrived.

[Mister Smikes]

8 hours ago, Orion2 said:

@Mister Smikes bruh if you dont wanna talk about it being sad or other scenes that effected you emotionally then get tf off my thread. This aint about unberic 

Well, the title you chose could be more on point, then, but never mind.  Here's a quick list of sad things

- Hazea getting eaten by Drogon.

- UnCat hanging Pod.

- Arya transforming into an agent of death.

- Beth Cassell losing her dad.

- Catelyn Stark, in her final hours as a human.

- The murder of Shae.

- Rosamund Lannister - it's not going to work out.-

- Tommen Baratheon - it's not going to work out.

- The Orphans at the Crossroad - it's not going to work out.

- The smallfolk - it's not going to work out.

 

 

 

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

"I am the last of the giants~"

so real. so sad.

[Rondo]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:02 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I'm sad the interestingly tragic character that was Beric just gave himself up for the sake of Stoneheart. So much more story potential with Beric's slow decent into oblivion than Stoneheart the mindless hate zombie.

The body was getting worn out.  Decay has begun.  Beric can't continue much longer.  

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

The body was getting worn out.  Decay has begun.  Beric can't continue much longer.  

But Catelyn's body left rotting in the river for days can? Even assuming that's the case about Beric.

[Rondo]

On 9/9/2021 at 1:09 AM, Lord Lannister said:

But Catelyn's body left rotting in the river for days can? Even assuming that's the case about Beric.

His had more damage.  

[Mister Smikes]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:27 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yes. I suspect that this is impossible.  Too much decay, too much time, too many bodies. Cat's been floating in the river and I just can't believe that any distinctive, signature Catelyn Stark smell would have remained. What would it have been in the first place, her hair, perfume, her particular flavour of BO? I don't think any of those things would be able to assert themselves over the funk of death that must have permeated the area around the other corpses.

I'm no expert on what is or is  not possible with canine scent, and perhaps neither is GRRM.  But the text says what it says, so, impossible or not, Nym does smell Catelyn.  BTW, I am not 100% clear that Catelyn is 3 days dead when Nym pulls her out of the river.  Do we know the timing of Arya's dream?  What we are told is that she was 3 days dead when Beric's band finds her.

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Do we know the timing of Arya's dream?  What we are told is that she was 3 days dead when Beric's band finds her.

 

doesn't the dream end with the brotherhood finding the body and the wolves/Arya then running off?

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

doesn't the dream end with the brotherhood finding the body and the wolves/Arya then running off?

Maybe.  But that's not what it says.  It merely says that Nym hears men's voices and then runs off.  The rest is merely fans drawing conclusions, based on the BWB finding the body.

But Arya's chapter does seem to suggest that days have past since the Red Wedding.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

18 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe.  But that's not what it says.  It merely says that Nym hears men's voices and then runs off.  The rest is merely fans drawing conclusions, based on the BWB finding the body.

But Arya's chapter does seem to suggest that days have past since the Red Wedding.

"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." Feast Bri 8

isn't this basically proof it was them. they could have known the time frame just by how long since the weeding had passed. they would have been hunting Arya and the hound after he absconded with her, so it fits the time frame for one of them to be close by the river. the only thing up in the air was how long after Harwin found her that Berric kissed her.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." Feast Bri 8

isn't this basically proof it was them. they could have known the time frame just by how long since the weeding had passed. they would have been hunting Arya and the hound after he absconded with her, so it fits the time frame for one of them to be close by the river. the only thing up in the air was how long after Harwin found her that Berric kissed her.

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Men on horses, with flapping black and yellow and pink wings and long shiny claws in hand.

This is from Arya/Nymeria POV. Three men approach on horse: black for Beric, yellow for Lem and pink for Thoros?