The Matrix Resurrections [SPOILERS]

[IFR]

@Kalsandra

That was a good analysis and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. 

Spoiler

I think our differences lie in our subjective reactions to the film and it's not something that can be bridged by discussion. But I will lay down my thoughts on why the movie did not resonate as well for me.

For one thing, I find the idea of transcendental love hokey. It may be a positive message, but that in itself is neither interesting or appealing to me.

I think the idea that things continue beyond is baked into the premise introduced by the sequels of the Matrix, where there have been several iterations of the Matrix and Neo, each incarnation different than before. Which is what we get here. One could argue that refocusing on Trinity is enough of a new change to be novel, but I didn't find it substantial or satisfying.

You make a good observation wrt to Trinity. I honestly wished they put more focus on her children, though. And didn't make the husband such a domineering douche. By minimizing her interaction with her children to basically nothing and making the husband this purely unlikable guy, it really simplified her decision to abandon them. I think it would have been far more interesting if the choice was between a truly satistifyng, though potentially artificial, happy family or going with some guy who had been stalking her who she thought she might know.

I of course am also operating from the mindset that free will is a meaningless concept and so rhapsodizing it as the greatest thing ever over happiness seems very silly to me. 

All that said, I'm happy you got what you wanted in this movie. I honestly wish I were in your boat. There are limited pleasures in life; I wish this movie had been one of them for me.

 

[Lord Varys]

I really did dislike the line in the end that had them beat up the Analyst about using the children against her. That clearly wanted to take the sting out of the obvious message that 'family and children really aren't for everyone' which they were telling earlier ... and which is true for a lot of people and still something that's anathema to many women. But Trinity kind of regains her 'potential motherhood' with that line at the end.

Just now, sifth said:

I'm starting to think we had Lilly to take for all of the amazing action scenes in the original film. The action in this film is filled with constant quick cuts and Neo apparently using force push moves, to escape tight spots. Heck some of the action scenes in this movie, are copied right out of the older ones, as if they weren't even trying to make them new and original. 

Yes, they really didn't focus that much on the action scenes this time.

Although I must say I always wondered why the hell Neo could only stop bullets and fly back in movies 2 & 3 and not, you know, rewrite the code in a more drastic manner. Granted, he likely would have to figure out how to do that and stuff ... but it is good that he apparently did that this time.

What could have really worked great in this movie - or perhaps in some sequels - if the Matrix potential for the machines were explored. Who is in charge there? Those squids seem to be just tools who follow orders, so are 'the machine suits' just 'the programs in charge' living in some 'Machine Matrix' which is rendered somewhere in the Machine City ... or are the machine bosses robots living in the real world?

Also - how is that society structured? They could really do something interesting there, possibly creating a plot where man and machine finally became one in some kind of cyberpunk paradise.

[IFR]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What could have really worked great in this movie - or perhaps in some sequels - if the Matrix potential for the machines were explored. Who is in charge there? Those squids seem to be just tools who follow orders, so are 'the machine suits' just 'the programs in charge' living in some 'Machine Matrix' which is rendered somewhere in the Machine City ... or are the machine bosses robots living in the real world?

Also - how is that society structured? They could really do something interesting there, possibly creating a plot where man and machine finally became one in some kind of cyberpunk paradise.

Yes, I think so, too. The movie seemed to appropriate some small elements of Greg Egan's Diaspora. I wish they would have explored these kind of ideas in more depth. That would have been really cool.

[DMC]

48 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

as well as some obvious comments on how redpilling is now something anathema to the creators of the Matrix

On that, I thought this was a good read - as well as describing how the Analyst's new matrix is a critique of how the internet and social media makes us all suck.

27 minutes ago, Fez said:

And, from some interviews, it sounds like the main thing she wanted to accomplish was to give Neo and Trinity a happy ending.

Yeah her comment that she couldn't bring her parents back but could bring back Neo and Trinity was pretty touching.  

[Kalbear]

I'm pretty sure yuen woo ping was responsible for the amazing fight sequences in the trilogy. 

On the matrix - one of the things that neo did in revolutions was actually change the status quo and stop the cycle. This version of the matrix is different than before - it doesn't automatically produce an anomaly like Neo, and in fact they had to add it in to balance things out. The new Matrix is not just about keeping people placid - it is about literally making things harder for people because that torture causes more gain. 

So yeah, I don't see how this is just another incarnation - things are radically different. Machines are working with people, people are deliberately having pain inflicted on them, the architect of this is specifically and deeply involved. The merovingian specifically (and hilariously) comments on how his whole life got fucked over by Neo's actions and everything changed for the worse for him and the exiles. Hell, the machines went to war against each other!

Another interesting thing is that there are no other programs running around the matrix any more. They don't have to. They don't deal with the filth and smells like Smith did. They can happily ignore the pain and degradation because the analyst keeps them fat and happy, blissfully ignorant of what is required to keep them in the riches.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, sifth said:

The action in this film is filled with constant quick cuts and Neo apparently using force push moves, to escape tight spots.

I think it should be emphasized the fact Neo never fires a gun is very intentional.  Doesn't mean they couldn't make better action scenes, but still.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, IFR said:

@Kalsandra

That was a good analysis and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. 

  Hide contents

I think our differences lie in our subjective reactions to the film and it's not something that can be bridged by discussion. But I will lay down my thoughts on why the movie did not resonate as well for me.

For one thing, I find the idea of transcendental love hokey. It may be a positive message, but that in itself is neither interesting or appealing to me.

I think the idea that things continue beyond is baked into the premise introduced by the sequels of the Matrix, where there have been several iterations of the Matrix and Neo, each incarnation different than before. Which is what we get here. One could argue that refocusing on Trinity is enough of a new change to be novel, but I didn't find it substantial or satisfying.

You make a good observation wrt to Trinity. I honestly wished they put more focus on her children, though. And didn't make the husband such a domineering douche. By minimizing her interaction with her children to basically nothing and making the husband this purely unlikable guy, it really simplified her decision to abandon them. I think it would have been far more interesting if the choice was between a truly satistifyng, though potentially artificial, happy family or going with some guy who had been stalking her who she thought she might know.

I of course am also operating from the mindset that free will is a meaningless concept and so rhapsodizing it as the greatest thing ever over happiness seems very silly to me. 

All that said, I'm happy you got what you wanted in this movie. I honestly wish I were in your boat. There are limited pleasures in life; I wish this movie had been one of them for me.

 

I think the choice to not show the family was very deliberate here ... because for the character of Trinity motherhood and family were no real temptation. She is stuck, staying with them out of a sense of responsibility but it is clearly nothing she ever wanted. And they do portray it that way. Portraying it as if she would genuinely care about such a family would be changing the character on a fundamental level.

11 minutes ago, IFR said:

Yes, I think so, too. The movie seemed to appropriate some small elements of Greg Egan's Diaspora. I wish they would have explored these kind of ideas in more depth. That would have been really cool.

The thing is - that kind of stuff is already there in the 2 & 3. Are the Oracle and the Architect just tools used to manage the whole 'power plant situation' we, the machine collective, are dependent on ... or are they 'real individuals' within the machine society?

Then we have the Merovingian and the whole Exiles situation which has freaks and miscreants from the unseen 'machine world' seek refuge in the human zoo ... which is quite telling how, well, unpleasant life in the machine world might be. And is actually quite an interesting play with the Smith dilemma from the first movie ... where he feels trapped by the Matrix, but the very role he has to play there. But for other programs the Matrix is the place where they can be free and themselves, etc.

The whole talk about Sati desperately needing a purpose/fulfilling a function kind of implies that machine sentience hasn't yet fully overcome the fact that they are, on a fundamental level, just tools which need to fulfill a function. They can't *just exist* and have no purpose.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What could have really worked great in this movie - or perhaps in some sequels - if the Matrix potential for the machines were explored. Who is in charge there? Those squids seem to be just tools who follow orders, so are 'the machine suits' just 'the programs in charge' living in some 'Machine Matrix' which is rendered somewhere in the Machine City ... or are the machine bosses robots living in the real world?

Also - how is that society structured? They could really do something interesting there, possibly creating a plot where man and machine finally became one in some kind of cyberpunk paradise.

Yes my only interest in further sequels would be if they were centered on the conflict among the machines and how their "society," such as it is, works.

[IFR]

13 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

On the matrix - one of the things that neo did in revolutions was actually change the status quo and stop the cycle.

Oh yes, I know. The status quo has changed in the movies, and so the details of this new Matrix are largely different (no Agents, but bots, etc.).

What I'm saying is that there has previously been established the idea of things carrying on beyond Neo. Changing the status qup changes the details of the system that later evolves, but the idea of an after has already been explored.

I think this is one of the subjective point on where we disagee. That this "after" explores a branching out from the mirrored repetition of the previous Matrix movies is sufficiently interesting to you, but to me it still is similar enough of a concept that I don't feel like it added much.

It could have. And I think it is an idea with potential, but I don't think the execution of the movie bore out that promise. YMMV.

 

Quote

I think the choice to not show the family was very deliberate here ... because for the character of Trinity motherhood and family were no real temptation. She is stuck, staying with them out of a sense of responsibility but it is clearly nothing she ever wanted. And they do portray it that way. Portraying it as if she would genuinely care about such a family would be changing the character on a fundamental level.

Possibly. I don't think removing accountability from someone is a particularly healthy or sympathetic narrative. It's too bad when our choices lead us to a path we don't like, but it's the ultimate sign of solipsism that we're willing to sacrifice others for ourselves. Free will or not.

[Lord Varys]

What I liked is that the resurrection part of Trinity and Neo was really fundamental. They literally rebuilt them from scratch, at least Trinity who was, beyond the shadow of a doubt, dead.

And this fits actually very well with what the Matrix people are back in the trilogy. They are not *really* people like normal people. They are as much programmed as machinery, part of the bio-tech power plant system. They do not just have those ports, they are filled with hardware and software which allows them to interact with and be a part of the Matrix.

And it is that tech that turns Neo into the One and gives him the powers he has. Folks were, rightfully, confused how his powers pass on in the real world but that's, presumably, because the fundamental design of the Oracle-created Matrix necessitates this stuff. And it is mirrored by Smith's ability to hack and download himself into people's brains.

15 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

I'm pretty sure yuen woo ping was responsible for the amazing fight sequences in the trilogy. 

On the matrix - one of the things that neo did in revolutions was actually change the status quo and stop the cycle. This version of the matrix is different than before - it doesn't automatically produce an anomaly like Neo, and in fact they had to add it in to balance things out. The new Matrix is not just about keeping people placid - it is about literally making things harder for people because that torture causes more gain. 

So yeah, I don't see how this is just another incarnation - things are radically different. Machines are working with people, people are deliberately having pain inflicted on them, the architect of this is specifically and deeply involved. The merovingian specifically (and hilariously) comments on how his whole life got fucked over by Neo's actions and everything changed for the worse for him and the exiles. Hell, the machines went to war against each other!

Another interesting thing is that there are no other programs running around the matrix any more. They don't have to. They don't deal with the filth and smells like Smith did. They can happily ignore the pain and degradation because the analyst keeps them fat and happy, blissfully ignorant of what is required to keep them in the riches.

Unless I'm mistaken then the Analyst discovered that Neo post-Revolutions provided them with an opportunity to create a new Matrix based on stuff that was, as they eventually figured out, based on him and Trinity. Keep in mind that Neo only became the guy breaking out the Oracle-created One cycles because of his connection to Trinity. That's what made him special, different from the others, leading to a different resolution to fundamental flaw in the Matrix system.

And it seems that it is this special connection the new Matrix is based on, it is what makes it running ... which is why Trinity having super powers in the end also makes sense. In this new Matrix she is as crucial for the system as Neo is.

But in the end they definitely carried over the Architect-Oracle created stuff. Whatever 'code' Neo and Trinity brought to the table goes back to the earlier iteration of the Matrix.

The whole dependence on power provided by the plants is also a kind of play with concepts from the earlier movies. We have Neo talk with the council guy in Reloaded how they are connected to machines running Zion ... but, ironically - and although it isn't touched upon very explicitly -, the machines are just as 'connected to' the human batteries in their plants. They cannot really kill them, can they?

The new movie continues this by elaborating somewhat on the fact that the machines are really dependent on the people who serve as their batteries. They cannot really risk too much trouble in the Matrix or with the power plants, or else they are in real danger.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

34 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

blissfully ignorant of what is required to keep them in the riches.

That is a beautiful allegory on our existing world… or… those who refuse to see the untold cost of our existing world (me included  ).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Did they explicitly say what happen to Zion?  I seem to remember Niobe sort of glossing over the specifics when she talked about what they could do in Io as compaired to Zion.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Did they explicitly say what happen to Zion?  I seem to remember Niobe sort of glossing over the specifics when she talked about what they could do in Io as compaired to Zion.

No, we didn't learn what exactly happened ... nor what happened to Morpheus. Which is why I think if there is a sequel they could bring Fishburne back if they wanted to. Say, because he is in cold storage since whatever happened to Zion.

Just as they could bring back Hugo Weaving - and the Oracle and the Architect - if the machines were forced to restart the old Matrix version and Smith were then getting his old skin back and the other old programs were coming back with the old operating system. The potential for that is there and I think it is there deliberately. If they had wanted to close the door on Fishburne for good they could have just mentioned he died, have Niobe show Neo his tomb, something like that.

Oh, and by the way: I think the name of the new city, IO, is a play on the original Machine City, Zero-One (01 or OI).

The obvious way to get to a new status quo were to have both sides figure out how they can bring the sun back. Then there would no longer be a need for the human power plants and if both sides were to trust each other they could live together in a lasting peace. That is perhaps a way they could explore ... with perhaps some power plant managing programs/machines resenting the notion that they could be erased/put out of existence if they were no longer needed in the future.

It might perhaps even funny if some programs already had come up with ways how to get beyond the human power plants but, like with the fossil fuel industry or the tobacco companies, the guys in charge don't really want to explore new ways, etc.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and by the way: I think the name of the new city, IO, is a play on the original Machine City, Zero-One (01 or OI).

This was my first inclination as well, but as my brother pointed out I think it's also partly a reference to Jupiter's moon.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

This was my first inclination as well, but as my brother pointed out I think it's also partly a reference to Jupiter's moon.

Oh, of course, and to the lover of Zeus the moon was named after ... but in context this name was probably chosen because it is Zero-One 'written backwards'. I assume the implication is supposed to be that it is a refuge/place for both humans and machines.

[Lord Varys]

Oh, did the actress of Bugs, Jessica Henwick, actually play one of the GoT 'Sand Snakes'? I honestly didn't recognize her ... that's the degree to which the shit show is out of my system.

She did a pretty good job in the movie.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

I think it should be emphasized the fact Neo never fires a gun is very intentional.  Doesn't mean they couldn't make better action scenes, but still.

Did Neo ever use any guns after the first film? Sorry, but I can't remember any time in the second or third film, in which Neo used them.

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, did the actress of Bugs, Jessica Henwick, actually play one of the GoT 'Sand Snakes'?

Yeah she played Nymeria.

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Did Neo ever use any guns after the first film? Sorry, but I can't remember any time in the second or third film, in which Neo used them.

Good point, I don't think he did either.

[sifth]

So now that Trinity is also The One, will she have her own Smith in the next film. The fact that they made Smith, Neo's evil counter part, is possibly the dumbest thing this series has done in my book, but since Neo has one, doesn't it only logically make sense, that Trinity needs one as well.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

So now that Trinity is also The One, will she have her own Smith in the next film. The fact that they made Smith, Neo's evil counter part, is possibly the dumbest thing this series has done in my book, but since Neo has one, doesn't it only logically make sense, that Trinity needs one as well.

I thought that this was very weird, too. But then I rewatched the first movie a shortly before watching the new one ... and Smith is really already the 'anti-Neo' in the first one. In the sense that he is as much trapped in his role, is as much a prisoner of the Matrix as Neo himself. And as Neo gains his freedom and understands who he is ... so does Smith.

Conceptually this actually works pretty well, although it is pretty subtle in the first movie. After all, Smith has his mad 'I hate the human zoo' rant when talking privately to Morpheus, not when he talks to Neo. Neo is to him just a tool he wants to use to get to Morpheus because he, wrongly, believes when the machines have found and destroyed Zion he will get another task, that nobody is going to need agents in the human zoo when nobody is out there who can free the humans. But he is, of course, dead wrong in this regard.

But in a very real sense Smith is Neo's mirror image. Neo shows us, the audience, that people are twisted into batteries. We see everything through his eyes ... but at the same time Smith shows us that sentient programs/machines can also be forced to do stuff they hate, meaning that they, too, are more than just tools, but the world they live in doesn't acknowledge that, either.

It is a pity that these issues are not elaborated much on in the other movies. But it is there. 'The Matrix Reloaded' makes this all more explicit when Smith basically tells us that he received the order to return to 'the Source' (presumably to be deleted) but refused it. We have it with the Merovingian and the other Exiles hiding in the Matrix, etc.

The problem is that 'The Matrix Revolutions' doesn't really continue this plot much further and wastes a ton of time on a big battle sequence which could be used to elaborate on those concepts. There was a potential there for a more effective, more concrete 'synthesis', with humans and (some) programs realizing that they were having the same issues, fighting the same problems in their different worlds.

But to get back to the issue at hand:

No, I don't think Trinity needs an evil alter ego. The whole mirror image thing was part of the fundamental flaw of the Oracle-created Matrix. She figured out how to make it work but the fundamental flaw has the system itself create 'the One' and its antithesis. All of Neo's predecessors also had their Smiths ... perhaps it was even the same Smith program the entire time, and the reboot of the system turned Smith back into a good little agent again.

The outcome we got in the third movie was new since the earlier 'Ones' all did what the Architect told them to do.

But the new Matrix the Analyst built is a version which is based on - or feeds on - the unique connection between Neo and Trinity - which was what Neo as special as he was. In a sense, the new Matrix version is the result of the Neo-Trinity symbiosis.

And I don't think we should expect an evil twin/mirror image in this setting. The basis for the new Matrix version was the work the Architect and the Oracle did ... but the Analyst got rid of the flaw they couldn't overcome by basically putting Neo-Trinity in stasis and using them in perpetuity to stabilize his new Matrix. That seems to be mirrored rather interestingly by the fact that his stick is to slow down time in the Matrix, and, in a sense, in the real world. The implication is that Neo and Trinity are supposed to remain in their pods for all time. He did not intend to allow them to die, it seems.

But I could certainly be wrong about that ;-).