So how did Tyrion find out about Jaime and Cersei?

[canonsigil]

I know Tyrion is intelligent but how did he find out about the twincest? It seems like he's been aware of it for some time in ACOK. I've heard some say he knows because he lived with them, but at the time Tyrion was fairly young so I don't think he could've noticed anything. Is it possible that Jaime just let it slip one day? I wouldn't be too surprised as Jaime doesn't really care about keeping the secret. However, this still seems pretty unlikely.

[Canon Claude]

11 minutes ago, canonsigil said:

I know Tyrion is intelligent but how did he find out about the twincest? It seems like he's been aware of it for some time in ACOK. I've heard some say he knows because he lived with them, but at the time Tyrion was fairly young so I don't think he could've noticed anything. Is it possible that Jaime just let it slip one day? I wouldn't be too surprised as Jaime doesn't really care about keeping the secret. However, this still seems pretty unlikely.

Tyrion probably did the math at some point in his life. He might not even have needed to walk in on them doing something. He could have just put two and two together based on a few hints. The Tyrion we know is shrewd and observant, and given how Jaime was one of the few people who was nice to Tyrion, he would have been able to spend time with Jaime and notice something afoot. Jaime was never exactly subtle, after all.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

4 hours ago, canonsigil said:

I've heard some say he knows because he lived with them, but at the time Tyrion was fairly young so I don't think he could've noticed anything.

Tyrion was living with them in king's landing for a while as well. he's 27~ by 300 ac. he knew Robert and was proboly around for Marcella and tommen's childhood as well given how much the two like him. so lets say he had 7ish years in kingslanding to puzzle it out.

[Moiraine Sedai]

How come he didn't know about their relationship earlier?  Strong attraction between the two is impossible to hide.

 

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

17 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

How come he didn't know about their relationship earlier?  Strong attraction between the two is impossible to hide.

well Jamie did start being a squire at Crakehall when he was 11 and Tyrion was 4 so he must have been not around the rock for a while in that time. Cersei was at the landing by the time they were 13 until 15 when they switched places. Jamie served as kingsguard under aerys until he was 16-17. Jamie and Cersei were in kings landing together from that point forward while Tyrion stayed at the rock until he was about 18ish keeping drains clean it seems and maybe later as well. certainly they saw each other and visited every now and then, but how much time together for Tyrion to witness them did not become significant until after the rebellion. I could be wrong but the affair between the twins was strongest in this time of king Robert, making it the most likely time for him to figure it out.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I don't think he knew until he tossed it at Cersei and she slapped him. I think that was his confirmation, but Stannis' letter may have been the point where he put 2 and 2 together or realized that suspicions he'd had for a long time weren't entirely driven by jealousy or just his lurid imagination.

[Lord Lannister]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

How come he didn't know about their relationship earlier?  Strong attraction between the two is impossible to hide.

 

 

Tyrion wasn't born yet during the "innocent" phase of their attraction at Casterly Rock. By the time Jaime and Cersei got out of control, they would've been at court in King's Landing whilst Tyrion was still at Casterly Rock. So it could likely have been well after the Rebellion before Tyrion was around both of them on a regular enough basis to start stockpiling clues to add to the proper conclusion not to mention old enough to notice such things. 

[Walda]

I was under the impression that he clocked to it at this point:

Quote

The maester thinks the boy may yet live.” He took a sip of beer.

Myrcella gave a happy gasp, and Tommen smiled nervously, but it was not the children Tyrion was watching. The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it.

(AGoT, Ch 09 Tyrion II)

He had gone on the hunt the day before, and knew that Jaime had not. 

Untill the trip to Winterfell, Tyrion did not seem to have spent much time with both the twins together. He was four when Jaime became Crakehall's squire. Cersei, his closest relative, joined Tywin in King's Landing when he was five.  She married Robert when he was eleven. Jaime had been a member of the Kingsguard since Tyrion was eight, so the twin's new proximity did not look like something they contrived. There was no reason to suspect them for it.

Of course, Varys knows it was totally contrived. He used Cersei to get Jaime into Aerys' Kingsguard.

Jon Arryn persuaded Robert to marry Cersei, but Varys might have influenced Jon. As far as we know, Tyrion was at Casterly Rock until he visited King's Landing for the wedding, unable to observe whatever machinations were taking place. No opportunity to observe his siblings together before then. No reason to suspect.

That Cersei's children look like Cersei is not so surprising. That Robert's bastards looked like him does not make it surprising. Malleon's "evidence" from ninety and one hundred and twenty years ago convinces Eddard, but not me.

A lot can happen in a family line over that period of time - Compare and contrast what has happened in the Targaryen family tree from the time of Daeron II to the eve of the third century AC.

I am more surprised by the persistence of purple eyes and platinum blond hair in the Royal house, even with all the inbreeding, there are still a lot of non-targs in the bloodline. Shouldn't we be surprised to find that none of the Baratheons have purple eyes? Maybe we should be more surprised at the persistence of blue eyes and black hair in the Baratheons since the days of the conquest, and of green eyes and blonde curls in the Lannisters 9700 years before that (approximately).

Finding two instances where the Baratheon black hair trumped the Lannister green eyes - is as surprising as tossing a coin twice and getting heads both times. Given the number of bastards and the fact Targaryens can't always marry each other, there are a distinct lack of purple eyed people outside the Targaryens. Malleon would have you expect bIue eyed, black haired bastards from Robert's ancestors for the last ten generations, and for the children of those bastards, annd their children. Instead, the fine black hair and deep blue eyes are the reliable mark of Robert's blood-kin exclusively. think that Tyrion would not have found Malleon as convincing as Ned, who did not have time for puzzles and who wasn't as sharp or as well read in his history as Tyrion.

Tyrion did have the opportunity to observe his siblings together at court in King's Landing - we know he has at leasted visited for his sister's wedding and Joffrey's name day tourneys, if he had not actually lived in the Red Keep. Then, he had three months travelling north with the court to Winterfell.

When Tyrion asked Varys about how Stannis came to accuse the twins of incest, Varys points out that eight of Robert's bastards had black hair, and lets Tyrion think that Littlefinger tipped Stannis off (ACoK Ch 15 Tyrion VI).

Varys also mentions that Jon Arryn and Ned Stark had reached the same conclusion before Stannis. We know that Pycelle gave Malleon to both Hands, although it is not clear to me that Jon Arryn was researching twincest.  Jon was in Robert's company while he was still able to speak, albeit in a fever. He did not attempt to tell Robert anything, even before Pycelle made sure he couldn't. He wanted Lysa to know "the seed is strong".

Stannis claims that he told Jon Arryn, and Jon had been "gathering certain proofs" when "Cersei poisoned him".  (ACoK Ch 31 Catelyn III) We know the first poisoner was Lysa, who did not want her SweetRobin to be taken to Dragonstone, or Casterly Rock. Pycelle might be considered as Cersei's poisoner, though he claims to have acted without an express order from her.

Lysa was the puppet of Petyr Baelish, who supplied her with the poison, and had her write the secret note for her sister at Winterfell. The note arrived after the King, like a postcard arriving after the holiday.

It seems to me that the message in it must have been written by Lysa (although it would not surprise me at all to learn that Petyr had learnt the private language from Lysa without Catelyn knowing, still Catelyn would know her sister's hand, and Lysa told Sansa and Catelyn she wrote the letter, although she wasn't really able to explain which Lannister murdered Jon, or what she had expected Catelyn to do about it. This hints that Petyr told Lysa what to write.)

The glass and its box and its mode of delivery seems to have been Petyr Baelish's business entirely.  Sending it to Maester Luwin was an interesting choice. Luwin used the glass to measure the shadows and identify the sun's position and season from it. It was work he had been doing since he took up his position at Winterfell, work that the maester of Castle Black does, even if he is blind. Work that the maesters of Dragonstone do. Archmaester Walgrave  devoted his life to raising the white ravens that distributed their findings to the world.

It is not a project Luwin started upon receiving a nice new lens. There is the metaphorical meaning that he and Catelyn were quick to catch, but there is also the fact that the essential piece of equipment of an observatory appeared in Maester Luwin's observatory while he was napping. The glass was not intended for Catelyn.

Luwin has an interest in devices and contraptions (although imo he is not a great designer of aids for Bran). It is in character that he would pay some attention to the box the glass was in, and quickly identify the false bottom and find the secret letter. But could Petyr have known this? It seems to me that the letter might have languished in its secret compartment quite a while before it was discovered, that Petyr could not have known when the message would be found, or if Catelyn would ever see it.

I wonder too if the carrier had known to deliver it after Eddard had his private meeting with the King, and while Maester Luwin was napping. Did the delivery guy avoid identification, or was that simply the unintended consequence of delivering the package to the observatory during Maester Luwin's siests and his servants' smoko? Did Maester Luwin even attempt to discover who it came from? Or had he had a lens on order for some time, and expected the delivery, just not the secret message inside?

The box could have been sent from King's Landing, the Citidel, the Vale, or even Myr via White Harbor. It could have been dispatched any time between Lysa first agreeing to poison her husband. It could have been withheld until Eddard had been offered the Handship.

Catelyn was the only person who could read the letter, but the blue Arryn seal meant anyone who found it would know it came from Lysa. Maester Luwin had not broken the seal, but had either interpreted it to mean the message was for Catelyn, or had found some other mark upon it that told him the same thing.

Maester Luwin did not see Catelyn immediately. I think he waited until he saw the windows of her bedroom open, knowing from long habit what that signified, before he insisted on an audience, and got one in spite of Eddard reminding Jory he was not to be disturbed. It seems likely to me that he waited until Catelyn had softened Ned up to the idea of accepting the Handship, and took the opportunity to lend his voice in her support. He might have realised that he would be the real governor of the North if Eddard went south. When Robert left for Winterfell as soon as his Hand had died, anyone could anticipate why. It was much more likely than not that Eddard would accept, whether he received this note or not. If he accepted, it was a fair bet Robb would stay, as the Stark in Winterfell, and that Theon would stay too. That Jon would not be joining his father in King's Landing. That Sansa would, and would be Joffrey's betrothed. But neither Luwin nor Petyr could have known that Eddard would have Catelyn remain at Winterfell. I don't think that anyone other than Ned and Catelyn would be particularly invested in whether Arya or Bran stayed or went.

Maester Luwin did know, as an outsider wouldn't, that Jon Snow would have to go if Catelyn ruled Winterfell. Still, he appeared a bit too ready with the solution, to me. He said Benjen had come to him about Jon. That also seems a bit odd to me. Luwin seems to do his duty at Winterfell admirably, to his dying breath. And yet here he seems to be meddling.

Stannis doesn't mention how he came to know of the twincest. Not from Melisandre, who arrived at Dragonstone and converted his wife after he left King's Landing. Not from the sight of Gendry at the forge - he had already shared his secret with Jon Arryn before then.

Almost certainly, Robert knew he had been cuckolded by Jaime. The timing of the births, and his relations with the queen, his generally amicable attitude to Jaime while he consistently bets against him, all point to this. It seems to me that for the good of the realm, or to spite Stannis, Robert accepted Cersei's children as his own.

It wasn't Robert who told Stannis, as Stannis would have no apprehension of seeming self-serving on the subject if that was the case. Catelyn assumes Robert would have had Cersei's head if he had known. But if it wasn't public knowledge, would he? And what of the children? Eddard tells Robert he is "no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents", and even if Eddard was wrong, these innocents have the backing of Tywin Lannister, and Robert knew what that would mean for the peace of the realm.

It seems odd that Stannis would find out about the incest before Tyrion. He isn't as sensitive to such things. Odd too, that he knew Renly was scheming to bring Margaery to Robert's bed. Yet he clearly did. Did someone tip him off?

People who knew of the twincest earlier than Stannis:

-Varys, obviously, who used Cersei to get Jaime into the Kingsguard, a hostage to his father's good behaviour.

-Lady Joanna, who caught them inflagrante delicto

-Tywin arranged for Jaime to leave the Rock aged nine and brought Cersei to court a year later, keeping her in the Tower of the Hand. When Jaime had earnt his spurs, Tywin arranged for Jaime to marry Lysa. I also suspect that  Tywin had set up the meeting with Tysha on the road to Casterly Rock. That he was the landlord that had sent her packing, and the brigands Jaime chased away were his own men. It seems unlikely to me that such a gross breach of the peace would be permitted to occur so close to Casterly Rock, and in broad daylight. Or perhaps Tywin regarded Tysha as a whore because he had intended her to sleep with his son. Only he had meant Jaime, who wasn't the slightest bit interested in her, and had never considered she might be interested in Tyrion. Right up until Jaime joins the Kingsguard, Tywin seems to be keeping the twins apart. When Stannis comes out with the twincest claim, he seeks to marry Cersei to the guy the Tyrells were preparing to marry to Sansa. None of his children believes Tywin knows about the Twincest, but he acts as if he knows to keep those two apart.

I don't know what Littlefinger knew about this. He knew about at least some of Robert's bastards, but I can't see anything in his behaviour that suggests he knew the Queen was cheating on her husband.

I am sure Jaime didn't let it slip, not even to Tyrion. I doubt that Stannis would pick up on the attraction by his own observations and knowledge of their characters. But somehow, Stannis found out, and found out before Tyrion.

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

Cersei and Jaime were not discret in their affair... they were doing it in Winterfell, they were doing in the day of Cersei's Marriage, they did on Stormlands and Darry...all places and days that they could (and were) get caught.

The number of people that notice their affair is more then enough to expose then, why it didn't come first is the real question...

Ned, Bran, Jon Arryn, Pycelle, Varys, LF, Tyrion, Stannis, Kevan, Lancel, (forgot somebody? Maybe Maergery and Olenna?).

[Arthur Peres]

Joanna and one of their servants also knew... about their affair...

worst kept secret ever...

[Walda]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Kevan, Lancel,

While your point is valid, Kevan didn't clock to them until after the Battle of Blackwater ie. after Davos and his son have posted it on every sept door and cried it in every town square down the coast, informed the Sealord and the magisters of the Free Cities, and Stannis had sent out ravens to every major castle in Westeros.

I'm still not sure Lancel really believes it

[Arthur Peres]

42 minutes ago, Walda said:

While your point is valid, Kevan didn't clock to them until after the Battle of Blackwater ie. after Davos and his son have posted it on every sept door and cried it in every town square down the coast, informed the Sealord and the magisters of the Free Cities, and Stannis had sent out ravens to every major castle in Westeros.

I'm still not sure Lancel really believes it

After Jaime confronting him on it, Lancel knows about it for sure...

Kevan did not belive Stannis, but after a few weaks at KL he understood the affair, it just seems they were very on the nose about it and Only Robert didn't saw it(probably too drunk to care).

I also forgot Brienne, Catelyn and Ilyn Payne, all people Jaime told them...They barely tried to keep it a secret to be honest. Jaime could just have told Tyrion... after all he seems to spread the word just as much as Stannis.

[TheSamsa]

Thats what he does:
He drinks, and knows things.

[Dofs]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:51 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I don't think he knew until he tossed it at Cersei and she slapped him. I think that was his confirmation, but Stannis' letter may have been the point where he put 2 and 2 together or realized that suspicions he'd had for a long time weren't entirely driven by jealousy or just his lurid imagination.

He absolutely knew before the books began. One of the reasons Jaime was convinced that Tyrion couldn't have killed Joffrey was because Tyrion knew he was he his son. So not only Tyrion was aware about the incest, he knew about the bastards as well and Jaime was aware that Tyrion knew. I suspect that Tyrion at some point started to suspect about incest and flat out confronted Jaime about it and Jaime just confirmed it the way he confirmed it to Cat when she asked about the incest as well.

[Walda]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

One of the reasons Jaime was convinced that Tyrion couldn't have killed Joffrey was because Tyrion knew he was he his son.

Evidence ftom the book, please

[Dofs]

8 hours ago, Walda said:

Evidence ftom the book, please

"Tyrion said that?" Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. I loved Tyrion. I was good to him. Well, but for that one time . . . but the Imp did not know the truth of that. Or did he? "Why would he kill Joff?"

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

15 hours ago, Dofs said:

He absolutely knew before the books began. One of the reasons Jaime was convinced that Tyrion couldn't have killed Joffrey was because Tyrion knew he was he his son. So not only Tyrion was aware about the incest, he knew about the bastards as well and Jaime was aware that Tyrion knew. I suspect that Tyrion at some point started to suspect about incest and flat out confronted Jaime about it and Jaime just confirmed it the way he confirmed it to Cat when she asked about the incest as well.

Yeah, you're right. He obviously knew when he spoke to her about being hand in his first chapter in Clash and it could be inferred that he knew long before then from the" His sister fancied herself subtle, but he had grown up with her..."bit.

Funny you posted that because I came across it in Clash last night and considered logging in and correcting myself but didn't bother... Could have been about 15 hours ago actually...

[Walda]

@Dofs that. quote only proves Tyrion knew it after Stannis had made the knowledge public. Do you have evidence that Jaime knew Tyrion knew before then?

[Dofs]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:41 AM, Walda said:

@Dofs that. quote only proves Tyrion knew it after Stannis had made the knowledge public. Do you have evidence that Jaime knew Tyrion knew before then?

But Jaime at that point hasn't seen Tyrion since their visit to Winterfell, way before Stannis sent any letters. Surely Jaime wouldn't confidently think "He knew the boy was mine" only based on assumptions and no confirmation from Tyrion that he 100% believed those letters. Then there is this bit:

"All Jaime had wanted was an hour alone with Cersei. Their journey north had been one long torment; seeing her every day, unable to touch her, knowing that Robert stumbled drunkenly into her bed every night in that great creaking wheelhouse. Tyrion had done his best to keep him in a good humor, but it had not been enough."

This sentence implies that Tyrion was trying to cheer up Jaime knowingly, that he was perfectly aware why Jaime was upset.

Also, Jaime has told multiple times that the only lie he has ever told to Tyrion was about Tysha. That means that if Tyrion asked him about his suspicions regarding his relationship with Cersei, which is entirely plausible, Jaime didn't lie to him.

This all clearly points to the fact that Tyrion knew about the twins since way before the series started and Jaime was perfectly aware of Tyrion's knowledge, to the point that they both freely talked about it amongst each other. 

[BlackLightning]

@canonsigil This is a very, very good question

It's impossible for Tyrion to have known for sure before Cersei married Robert and moved to the Red Keep given Tyrion's age and the circumstances of separation regarding Cersei and Jaime (Jaime elsewhere serving as a squire and page, Cersei at Casterly Rock with Tyrion). I'll even go so far as to say that the only reason Tyrion likes Jaime is because Tyrion didn't exactly grow up with him like he did with Cersei...but that's another topic.

I'm sure he found out sometime either during Robert's reign or during A Game of Thrones but definitely before A Clash of Kings. The more that I think of it, brothers and sisters (particularly during that time) don't hang around each other much less in such intimate, close proximity as much as Jaime and Cersei.

On 9/19/2021 at 8:21 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei and Jaime were nfffot discret in their affair... they were doing it in Winterfell, they were doing in the day of Cersei's Marriage, they did on Stormlands and Darry...all places and days that they could (and were) get caught.

The number of people that notice their affair is more then enough to expose then, why it didn't come first is the real question...

This is true.

Cersei and Jaime were very reckless and very arrogant. And very sloppy.

It is a miracle that nothing happened sooner. I think part of the reason why none of this stuff got out any sooner is that:

• it was a child found them (and not just any child, the child of their host who also happens to be all parts brave, curious and sheltered)
• Jaime somehow felt comfortable enough to draw the conclusion that it'd be better to have that child killed...in one of the most clumsiest ways possible.
• again, this child is a child of a Lord Paramount and his lady wife who also happens to be the daughter of another Lord Paramount

An adult would've been much too afraid and too careful to let themselves be caught discovering them in flagrante--because they knew that doing so makes them the target of some of the most wrathful, powerful people on that side of the Narrow Sea.

The only adult person that wouldn't have been so terrified is a great lord whf

o discovers them in their home (i.e. if Ned walked in on them in Winterfell), the king himself, Stannis or another Lannister.

I'm sure there are people all over the realm who knew that Stannis and Ned were/are telling the truth...especially if their behavior on Greenstone and in Darry was normal.

It makes sense why so many sided against the Lannisters at the beginning.