Central theme(s) of ASoIaF and actual text

[Nathan Stark]

On 9/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

I think the real question of the story (and what it actually intends to answer as well) is if giant ice spiders the Others are riding are real or not. Because if they are, then humanity is so dumb it deserves extinction, since they were tryna keep away SPIDERS with a WALL!

Yeah, they should totally just have dragons fly past the Wall to incinerate the spiders. Oh, dragons can't fly past the Wall? What genius thought this through, and what was their logic? I want their supply of mushrooms.

[Mourning Star]

30 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yeah, they should totally just have dragons fly past the Wall to incinerate the spiders. Oh, dragons can't fly past the Wall? What genius thought this through, and what was their logic? I want their supply of mushrooms.

I still think it's funny that people think Men built the wall... The Children need those mushrooms to survive the winter they called down on Westeros so the Others can purge men with their spooky spiders, sorry.

Under the hill they still had food to eat. A hundred kinds of mushrooms grew down here. Blind white fish swam in the black river, but they tasted just as good as fish with eyes once you cooked them up. They had cheese and milk from the goats that shared the caves with the singers, even some oats and barleycorn and dried fruit laid by during the long summer. And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barley and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat, and Meera said that it was rat. Bran did not care. It was meat and it was good. The stewing made it tender.

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

So while obviously you can have your own personal interpretations for stuff, there is an actual literary tradition here.

It is what the text gives us.

[Daeron the Daring]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yeah, they should totally just have dragons fly past the Wall to incinerate the spiders. Oh, dragons can't fly past the Wall? What genius thought this through, and what was their logic? I want their supply of mushrooms.

The big question is if dragons can get trough beside it. If not, now that would be lame. 

[BlackLightning]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

So while obviously you can have your own personal interpretations for stuff, there is an actual literary tradition here.

Fire and Ice representing the passions of desire and hate isn't something I'm inventing, it is defined explicitly by the source from which the series gets its name.

Now if you want to say there is an added connotation of "cold" logic to Ice, as opposed to the "hotter" more emotional burning passion of desire that's certainly a possibility, but I think there is a fundamental idea that while these are "opposites" there is a common element of self destruction to them both.

The nine lines of the poem, narrowing towards the end are reminiscent of Dante's Inferno, and the rhyme scheme is reminiscent of the one he invented for the Divine Comedy. The worst sinners are frozen in ice at the bottom of a fiery hell.

In both cases, fire and ice, represent the self destructive passions of mankind and the fates these passions bring down on us.

However, I do think it is a massive mistake to conflate desire with love here (or hate with duty for that matter).

While I agree that fire and ice represent the two self-destructive paths of mankind and the fates these passions bring down upon them, I don't think it's all passion.

I hold with the thought that fire is synonymous with the burning passion of mankind (love, hate, jealousy, lust, etc.) and ice is synonymous with the colder, more calculative, dispassionate side of human nature: logic, indifference, envy, depression. And there are some self-destructive attributes of mankind that are both ice and fire such as ambition and fear.

Robert Baratheon, Dany, Cersei, Viserys, Catelyn etc. would fall on the fire side while characters like Stannis, Bran, Tywin, Roose, Ned. And then you have characters who fall in the middle: Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Littlefinger, etc. 

 

[Rondo]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

While I agree that fire and ice represent the two self-destructive paths of mankind and the fates these passions bring down upon them, I don't think it's all passion.

I hold with the thought that fire is synonymous with the burning passion of mankind (love, hate, jealousy, lust, etc.) and ice is synonymous with the colder, more calculative, dispassionate side of human nature: logic, indifference, envy, depression. And there are some self-destructive attributes of mankind that are both ice and fire such as ambition and fear.

Robert Baratheon, Dany, Cersei, Viserys, Catelyn etc. would fall on the fire side while characters like Stannis, Bran, Tywin, Roose, Ned. And then you have characters who fall in the middle: Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Littlefinger, etc. 

 

The middle is not necessarily a better place.  I would also differ with your categorization of Daenerys, Bran, Arya, Jon, and Littlefinger.  Arya and Jon are very intense, very emotional, volatile, easily-angered, vindictive, temperamental people.  Arya is very, very passionate to the point where she murdered the old man in Braavos to impress a cult of nut jobs.  Jon's anger and passion is demented enough to kill a fellow brother of the watch.  So if you wish to categorize, those two  belong on the extremes, fire or ice.  We don't have a Littlefinger chapter.  The old boy could easily be a raging sea of emotions inside.  We do know a lot about Daenerys and Bran.  They are two of the more reasonable people in the top tier of characters.  They have good emotional control and are usually balanced and centered almost all of the time.  The middle is not necessarily a better place but for a leader, it has its advantages.  I am thinking it will be those two who will rule Fire and rule Ice in the end, Daenerys and Bran.  Catelyn and Cersei are the same coin.  Catelyn is less temperamental but they are driven by irrationally intense love for their kids.  These women did horrible things, things that hurt thousands of innocent people, for their kids.  C and C are not fit to lead.  Robert and Viserys actually have a lot in common.  They have crippling personal weaknesses that make leadership a challenge.  We didn't get to see Viserys on the throne but it would have been the other side of the coin to Robert's reign.  Neither as bad as Cersei but the realm could do better.  For all of his faults, the Mad King kept his kingdom operating smoothly by choosing to let his council manage.

The truth as I see it is not so much about falling only on one side.  Most people have aspects of both.  Fire and Ice.  What separates the ones who should lead are their ability to exercise self-discipline and restraint.  We know Daenerys can do that.  Bran would need to do the same if he is to lead ice.  Fire and Ice will be enemies at the end but Martin will be sure to make each side sympathetic.  It's not a good versus evil ending (my opinion!). There will be nuance and plenty of room between Fire and Ice for people to fall in.  A person can act like Fire and a minute later behave like Ice.