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Daeron the Daring

Howland Reed and to who he will tell what...

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So, assuming Aegon ever takes King's Landing (or gets a stable portion of the realm for himself for himself) and Daenerys arrives at Westeros at some point, could it be that Howland Reed will try to reach them someway and tell them they have a brother/nephew lurking around up North (who at the point could already be in a really powerful position compared to being Lord Commander of the Night' Watch or dead)? Considering legitimate Jon doesn't have a better claim than the real Aegon, it doesn't harm Young Griff in any way. In case of Daenerys, this is a bit more complicated, because it includes telling him that "You're not the rightful queen of Westeros.", but she might already believe that if she knows about Aegon at that point. 

Sounds a more reasonable thing to do to me than telling the kid himself only, expecting him to show up in front of his kin who might not even believe it from deserter of the Night's Watch. 

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30 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, assuming Aegon ever takes King's Landing (or gets a stable portion of the realm for himself for himself) and Daenerys arrives at Westeros at some point, could it be that Howland Reed will try to reach them someway and tell them they have a brother/nephew lurking around up North (who at the point could already be in a really powerful position compared to being Lord Commander of the Night' Watch or dead)? Considering legitimate Jon doesn't have a better claim than the real Aegon, it doesn't harm Young Griff in any way. In case of Daenerys, this is a bit more complicated, because it includes telling him that "You're not the rightful queen of Westeros.", but she might already believe that if she knows about Aegon at that point. 

Sounds a more reasonable thing to do to me than telling the kid himself only, expecting him to show up in front of his kin who might not even believe it from deserter of the Night's Watch. 

What do we know about the characteristics/motivations of Howland Reed? What does he know, about whom? What are Howland's goals? Whom would he approach? Why would he approach them? Who is Howland loyal to?

Frankly, what is "reasonable" is meaningless, unless all of the above is answered in detail, as well as...

Is Aegon legitimate? Is Jon? Does Howland know if one or both is legitimate? (BTW, 'Legitimacy' means nothing.)

Why would Howland have waited to seek out Aegon or Dany to tell them that they have a "brother/nephew" lurking? Why not go before now? Why not go to anyone else at any point before now?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This is an oopsie. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

What do we know about the characteristics/motivations of Howland Reed?

I like how you're thinking. I'm gonna try and answer everything the most pleading way, I hope. 

Probably as much as the Knight of the Laughing Tree story Meera tells Bran indicates, plus the much we know about him besides that. The fact that he accompanied Ned to find Lyanna tells a lot. He seems to be a loyal bannermen to the Starks, this could be the fruit of their help he received at Harrenhall, and everything that came afterwards. So not only a person with good qualities, but the person who happens to be a supportive figure to Ned, his bloodline, and possibly Lyanna's line (Jon) as well (if not for anything, then for what happened at Harrenhall). Also likely a wielder of magical power to some extent (remember how the story just simply tells us he's having a journey to the Isle of Faces like it's nothing?). 

He might have swore things to Eddard, which may include never telling anything to anyone (but that's not gonna happen) they might have talked about doing Y if X happens, or his current intentions and motivations might entirely differ. The catalizator of his appearance might be Jon leaving the Watch (if he ever does), the reasons  on why he should reach him otherwise aren't numerous for a long time. But in case this happens, revealing the truth to Daenerys or Aegon might be a reasonable thing to do, as it is just pure knowledge and no threat in both cases. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

What does he know, about whom?

Probably everything regarding Jon and the Tourney of Harrenhall. Maybe other stuff as well. Benjen might know a few things (if he's still alive), but Howland likely has an extended knowledge about it (Benjen was a child back then, and wasn't at thr Tower of Joy). 

Quote

What are Howland's goals? 

So far the most important thing (and in our case the only relevant one as well) he might do is revealing Jon's true identity and giving him legitimacy as well. His goals could easily (and more than likely) include all this considering where his loyalty lies. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Whom would he approach?

Most likely Jon and other suppossed Targaryen relatives. That's who can give him the most legitimacy. After them, maybe Targaryen loyalists, which is a gamble in all but name, so it will likely never happen. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Why would he approach them?

In case Jon ends up becoming King in da North (or wielder of any kind of great authority and power of Westeros, including being LC (which already happened)), this information could easily become a useful one for such 'kin' of him. Maybe they'd give more credit to the fairytales about the Others he'll talk about to them, or in any similar situation. Maybe this knowledge can evade an armed conflict. Maybe it can provide an heir or a husband to the given people. Or at least a dragonrider. And mainly because the Throne otherwise would get lost among the line of supposed bastards or Lannisters, none the descendants of Robert Baratheon. And most likely because a woman with a huge army and 3 dragons will take the Throne. That's not that much of a gamble. This information can do much good, especially because it's in Howland's hand.

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Who is Howland loyal to?

To the Starks. To humanity, in case he knows about the greater threat from beyond the Wall (remember, this guy likely visited the Isle of Faces). 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Frankly, what is "reasonable" is meaningless, unless all of the above is answered in detail, as well as...

Hope I was good enough in providing the answer to those questions. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Is Aegon legitimate?

Does Howland know he isn't (in case he isn't)? 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Is Jon?

I think he is. And even if we have a bunch of hints pointing towards that, I'd like to convince you in a different way. 

Imagine yourself into George's situation. You're writing this guy Jon Snow, who happens to believe he is a bastard. He doesn't know who his mother was or is, and he believes his father was the man who actually was his uncle. But his father was a man married to another woman..... What character developmemt would it give to him if he happens to be the bastard of another man (Rhaegar Targaryen) , and not Eddard's?

Nothing. Literally nothing. He would still be a bastard, and all those things he tought will be the right thing to do as a bastard would just be the right thing for her, just as he tought. This includes joining the NW, not wanting to father a single child (another bastard) ever, etc... What would be the point of keeping his true heritage a secret feom him? Surely, once half the realm supported a legitimized bastard, a great man against a weak king, but what could he do? A bastard, and a believer of the Old Gods. Who in the Seven Kingdoms would support him?

As a writer, you have to think this way as well. George has to. If it doesn't put any weight on the table, wasn't it always pointless?

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Does Howland know if one or both is legitimate?

 Expressing what I expressed before, I think Jon is legitimate, because Rhaegar took Lyanna as his second wife. And Howland knows this. The more important question is if Westeros will se it that way or not. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

(BTW, 'Legitimacy' means nothing.)

Still better being a trueborn than a bastard. Just think about it. Jon wanted to be a Stark (aka legitimate) his entire life. This would mean something to him,  it would develop his character. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Why would Howland have waited to seek out Aegon or Dany to tell them that they have a "brother/nephew" lurking?

Howland might never knew about Young Griff. He migjt still don't know. And I personally don't expect him to go to Meereen to Daenerys to share this information. He might know the future to some extent maybe. Or what could've Viserys do with this information? Since his death (since Daenerys' "inheritation" happened), Daenerys has always been east to the Valyrian peninsula, shich is the other side of the known world. And again, she could be who might give Jon the legitimacy Lord Howland Reed, lord of the crannogmen can't provide to the entirety of Westeros. But only if she is here. Besides, he might only think of if when she arrives. And he might only do it if when he thinks it's safe. 

But we likely don't know the extent of his knowledge either. He might never ring up Young Griff if he knows he isn't really Aegon IV. 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Why not go before now? Why not go to anyone else at any point before now? 

Most probably because it was Ned's secret at first. Before. When it became his, Jon already was a Black Brother, with no Targaryens around. I assume if he'd knew about Robb's will earlier (or at all), he would've revealed it to him in time. Which didn't happen. There might be reasons why. 

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

could it be that Howland Reed will try to reach them someway and tell them they have a brother/nephew lurking around up North

My tinfoil is telling me that Howland is already making an appearance in the story, as Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse and his interest is in protecting Sansa/Alayne at the moment, just as he attached himself to Ned for his protection. If it wasn't for Howland, Ser Arthur would have killed Ned and all the Stark kids, so important to the story, would not have been born.  The Stark bloodline must continue with Sansa.

We are not sure who Ser Shadrich is at the moment or where to place the Shady Glen, except that we are talking about mountains and valleys.  His sigil uses bendy brown and blue to represents the lands and waters he has crossed.  This fits with the oath of the Crabbogmen swearing by earth and water.  

Meera tells us that her father fought beside Theo Wull of the mountain clans during Robert's Rebellion and also that he mountains and marsh are one.  So perhaps, Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen is a knight of the mountain clans from the marshes of Greywater Watch.  The Mad Mouse who runs towards danger.  

 

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56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My tinfoil is telling me that Howland is already making an appearance in the story, as Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse and his interest is in protecting Sansa/Alayne at the moment, just as he attached himself to Ned for his protection

The thing that kind of turns this suggestion off is how long he is known to be in service around the realm. And also his characteristics. The reason he's in the Vale might just be Sansa, his phisical appearance is just how Howland Reed might look. But he's not a nice guy, and I mean not nice on a level that's hard to pretend. And assuming Howland Reed had a reason to pretend to be a hedge knight for so long, why would he abandon it? And especially how did he get to know Sansa's in the Vale? 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Stark bloodline must continue with Sansa.

Rickon would like to have a word with you. 

And besides, Sansa Stark is currently married to Tyrion Lannister (even if the marriage wasn't consumated). Believers of the Old Gods might proclaim the marriage is invalid due to it not being done with a ceremony of their faith, but believers of The Seven can not do such a thing. Not sure when do you think Tyrion will die, but given the situation, without his death, there is no chance of her remarrying. 

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5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So far the most important thing (and in our case the only relevant one as well) he might do is revealing Jon's true identity and giving him legitimacy as well. His goals could easily (and more than likely) include all this considering where his loyalty lies. 

If anything, he swore to Ned to conceal Jon's true identity. He's going to need to be motivated to break that oath and given what we can infer about his relationship with Ned and Lyanna, that may need to be a powerful motivation.

Maybe finding out Bran et his heir will do it though.

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I mean, let's be honest. Maybe Reed will tell Jon or one of the Starks. Maybe. But beyond that, who's going to believe the word of a crazy frog eater that this random bastard is the heir to the Iron Throne? 

(F)Aegon and Dany would just laugh at the notion of their claims being undermined by this fellow.

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8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, assuming Aegon ever takes King's Landing (or gets a stable portion of the realm for himself for himself) and Daenerys arrives at Westeros at some point, could it be that Howland Reed will try to reach them someway and tell them they have a brother/nephew lurking around up North (who at the point could already be in a really powerful position compared to being Lord Commander of the Night' Watch or dead)? Considering legitimate Jon doesn't have a better claim than the real Aegon, it doesn't harm Young Griff in any way. In case of Daenerys, this is a bit more complicated, because it includes telling him that "You're not the rightful queen of Westeros.", but she might already believe that if she knows about Aegon at that point. 

Sounds a more reasonable thing to do to me than telling the kid himself only, expecting him to show up in front of his kin who might not even believe it from deserter of the Night's Watch. 

Aegon's claim is only good if he is the real Aegon. Jon only has a claim if he's the son of Rhaegar. Which has not been proven. The word of a crannogman will carry little weight.

Daenerys has the strongest claim, even if those two are sons of Rhaegar. Viserys was crowned king and she is his heir. Rhaegar was never a king.  Jon is a bastard. He looks nothing like a Targaryen. Daenerys has dragons. She has the Targaryen look.  

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38 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This is the only relevant part of any debate about claims.

Good point, but not the only one. (F)Aegon has an army that seems to be getting bigger by the day and has arrived in a land that is tired of the Baratheon rule. An army was good enough to put Robert on the throne.

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3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Aegon's claim is only good if he is the real Aegon. Jon only has a claim if he's the son of Rhaegar. Which has not been proven. The word of a crannogman will carry little weight.

Daenerys has the strongest claim, even if those two are sons of Rhaegar. Viserys was crowned king and she is his heir. Rhaegar was never a king.  Jon is a bastard. He looks nothing like a Targaryen. Daenerys has dragons. She has the Targaryen look.  

Yeah, but she's a girl. Irrelevant if she takes the Throne by force, but very relevant if she takes any other path to the throne and potential male heirs are identified.

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No person in their right mind would pick Jon over Dany. He’s more than likely just a Stark bastard.  Gender is not going to matter. Aegon will not be able to prove anything. Everybody knows what happened to the real Aegon. He was killed by Lannister goons. 

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Howland is on Team Stark.  I doubt he has any interest in the Targaryens.  If he tells anyone, it will be Jon.  He'll let Jon decide who else to tell.  He might also have told his children, and authorized them to tell Bran or Jon, should the need arise.  I can't see any likelihood of him telling Daenerys or Aegon.  He has no interest in them, and no reason to tell them anything. 

Is Jon legitimate?  As a practical matter, no.  There is no record of any marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and it's doubtful a polygamous marriage would be recognized in any case.  And that's excluding the fact that there is no proof they are his parents either, natural or legitimate. 

Is Aegon real?  We have no way to conclusively say he is, so I am going to say no.  Varys may know, but I wouldn't trust anything he had to say.

These claims may help if either makes a play for power, but the basis of that play will have to be elsewhere. 

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He might have triggered WW3 by praying to the old gods asking for revenge cause he got beaten up.

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6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

No person in their right mind would pick Jon over Dany. He’s more than likely just a Stark bastard.  Gender is not going to matter. Aegon will not be able to prove anything. Everybody knows what happened to the real Aegon. He was killed by Lannister goons. 

Jon's dad's crazy frog eating friend didn't convince you? What if I told you Jon's brother heard it from the trees? Or there was a slab in his aunt Lyanna's... I mean him mom's... tomb explaining how he really is the king. C'mon, that's worth putting aside your own family interests and declaring for virtual nobody to be king, right?

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Dany will come to believe Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar. It is important to her arc because after she destroys Aegon for being a fake she'll have to decide if she will follow Jon, as she should if she's true to the reasons she will have destroyed Aegon, or if she's a hypocrite (mad with power) who will cling to being queen despite there being a true heir in front of her.

I do believe Howland Reed will play the part of convincing Dany of Jon's heritage. Dany must be given this information, and come to believe it, and Howland is the one who has it, he's the only who has it, he exists because someone must play this part. I don't necessarily agree that Howland will seek Dany out, I tend towards a chance meeting of fate. Perhaps Dany falls off her dragon and is saved by the crannogmen - something like that.

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15 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

If anything, he swore to Ned to conceal Jon's true identity.

Didn't know you were there. 

15 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

He's going to need to be motivated to break that oath and given what we can infer about his relationship with Ned and Lyanna, that may need to be a powerful motivation.

We don't know what kind of obligations Ned had towards Lyanna. We also don't know what Howland swore to do and not to do to Lyanna or/and Eddard. 

The question is, would he do it in case it might help a commom cause being pushed forward? 

15 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean, let's be honest. Maybe Reed will tell Jon or one of the Starks. Maybe. But beyond that, who's going to believe the word of a crazy frog eater that this random bastard is the heir to the Iron Throne? 

For all we know, he might be a crazy frog eater. But beside that, he is a direct feudal vassal to Winterfell, even if not the usual one. He is known to be the only survivor along Ned Stark of the incident of the Tower of Joy. 

The thing is, you don't know the weight of his words (so far noone really does), but you talk of crannogmen like a Frey would, and they aren't really the reliable source when it comes to describe crannogmen, simply because their hatred towards them (which originates from past armed conflicts). 

15 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

(F)Aegon and Dany would just laugh at the notion of their claims being undermined by this fellow.

It doesn't undermine Aegon's claim. Nor does it really undermine Daenerys' (yknow, dragons and stuff), especially if Jon remains a Black Brother an LC of the NW. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jon's dad's crazy frog eating friend didn't convince you? What if I told you Jon's brother heard it from the trees? Or there was a slab in his aunt Lyanna's... I mean him mom's... tomb explaining how he really is the king. C'mon, that's worth putting aside your own family interests and declaring for virtual nobody to be king, right?

Dude, you've been so busy being sceptical that you missed the entire point of the thread. The original reason I said Howland should do such a thing was to gain more reliability in Daenerys' or Aegon's eyes for Jon, if Jon happens to be LC of the NW, King in the North, etc, and sends ravens talking about Others.   Noone so far (at least I'm sure I did not) talked about revealing this info so that Jon might become king of Westeros. 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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22 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The thing that kind of turns this suggestion off is how long he is known to be in service around the realm. And also his characteristics. The reason he's in the Vale might just be Sansa, his phisical appearance is just how Howland Reed might look. But he's not a nice guy, and I mean not nice on a level that's hard to pretend. And assuming Howland Reed had a reason to pretend to be a hedge knight for so long, why would he abandon it? And especially how did he get to know Sansa's in the Vale? 

His physical characteristics certainly fit although a shock of orange hair is a surprise (dyed maybe?)  It just struck me today that "running towards danger" is something that first responders do -  Firefighters, police, etc. 

We don't really know what he has been doing but can assume Rob knew of some way to contact him.  Certainly sending Meera and Jojen to Bran could mean he has also had a call to action in some way.  I don't see him sitting this one out.  The only Stark without protection seems to be Sansa.  Her role in the aSoIaF is not clear at this point but she is an important player. 

I don't think he is pretending to be a hedge knight, only pretending to be a bounty hunter looking for Sansa.  This gives him the advantage of discovering other bounty hunters and doing away with them if necessary.  Examination of Ser Shadrich as a character should tell us something about Howland Reed if he is indeed Howland in disguise..  

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I do believe Howland Reed will play the part of convincing Dany of Jon's heritage. Dany must be given this information, and come to believe it, and Howland is the one who has it, he's the only who has it, he exists because someone must play this part. I don't necessarily agree that Howland will seek Dany out, I tend towards a chance meeting of fate. Perhaps Dany falls off her dragon and is saved by the crannogmen - something like that.

I seriously doubt Jon and Dany are going to meet in the books (that is, if Jon survives the mutiny at the Wall). And even if Dany does hear that her brother has a bastard son living in the North, she’ll likely brush this off the same way she’ll do with Young Griff/“Aegon”.

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