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Daeron the Daring

Howland Reed and to who he will tell what...

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6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

 

Dude, you've been so busy being sceptical that you missed the entire point of the thread. The original reason I said Howland should do such a thing was to gain more reliability in Daenerys' or Aegon's eyes for Jon, if Jon happens to be LC of the NW, King in the North, etc, and sends ravens talking about Others.   Noone so far (at least I'm sure I did not) talked about revealing this info so that Jon might become king of Westeros. 

But it wouldn't make Jon "more reliable" for either of them. It would make him a threat to their claims. The bastard of Ned Stark can be Lord Commander and an ally without any blood connection to House Targaryen. He can even be Lord of the North and a reliable subject(if he starts calling himself King in the North he's a problem and a threat though). If he's the son to Rhaegar, he undermines both their claims. Another surviving son of Rhaegar under skeptical circumstances would only raise the same questions and doubts (f)Aegon would want to avoid. While Aegon seems to want to work with Dany(only because of her dragons) we have no clue if the reverse is true. I very much doubt it based on what we've seen of her character. I think she'll view Aegon as much of a threat to HER claim as she would Jon.

Furthermore you seem to be missing my point. Reed isn't a reliable source to the Lords of Westeros. His say so isn't going to change any one's mind except maybe Jon's. He's a lowly vassal barely worthy of being called a lord. Anyone else that can verify Jon's ancestry is going to be viewed as equally skeptical and for good reason. 

Even more to the point even if Jon's lineage was proven unequivocally, it wouldn't matter. The reigns of Robert, Joffrey, Tommen and (f)Aegon's claim have proven this. The truth doesn't matter so long as someone has the power to make their lies the truth.

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My guess is:

  • Fiercely loyal to Ned
  • Probably swore to Ned to keep it secret
  • It would take extreme circumstances for him to break that promise
  • Or maybe Ned gave him permission to do so under certain conditions

Howland Reed's word alone obviously won't mean anything but maybe Ned hid proof of Jon's heritage and told Reed the place just in case.

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On 9/10/2021 at 5:16 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

So, assuming Aegon ever takes King's Landing (or gets a stable portion of the realm for himself for himself) and Daenerys arrives at Westeros at some point, could it be that Howland Reed will try to reach them someway and tell them they have a brother/nephew lurking around up North (who at the point could already be in a really powerful position compared to being Lord Commander of the Night' Watch or dead)? Considering legitimate Jon doesn't have a better claim than the real Aegon, it doesn't harm Young Griff in any way. In case of Daenerys, this is a bit more complicated, because it includes telling him that "You're not the rightful queen of Westeros.", but she might already believe that if she knows about Aegon at that point. 

Sounds a more reasonable thing to do to me than telling the kid himself only, expecting him to show up in front of his kin who might not even believe it from deserter of the Night's Watch. 

Who is rightful is a matter of how you look at it.  Robert destroyed 300 years of succession rule when he sat on the throne.  So much so that even Renly figured out that it is fair to question whether Stannis should succeed Robert.  George even said that Westeros belongs to whoever is strong enough to unite and hold the realm.  Having a claim is important but it is more about might after that technicality.  I will even say might can make that technicality go away.

Howland Reed is not a neutral party.  The only ones who will believe him are those who would want Jon as king.  And there will be very few of those outside of the willding camp.  Jon is a deserter and an oath breaker.  If people will hold slaving against Jorah and kinslaying against Tyrion, they will most certainly hold oathbreaking and deserting against Jon.  Jon will be a very hard package to sell.  He doesn't look Targaryen and he has the charms of a donkey's pooper tunnel.  I don't even think he has any Targaryen in him.

Aegon Blackfyre has a claim on the basis of carrying Targaryen blood in his veins.  But a Blackfyre claim will be far below the claims of a full Targaryen.  He will have possession of the sword, Blackfyre, and that will sway some of the Dornish families but not all of them.  Possession of the sword is good enough when the competition looks nothing like a Targaryen and is a known Stark bastard.  And a cold-blooded zombie at that.  But against someone who will be backed by Ser Barristan Selmy and three dragons, his proof will fall short. 

 

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 8:05 PM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

No person in their right mind would pick Jon over Dany. He’s more than likely just a Stark bastard.  Gender is not going to matter. Aegon will not be able to prove anything. Everybody knows what happened to the real Aegon. He was killed by Lannister goons. 

The heavy burden of proof will be on Aegon's shoulders.  It will be hard to prove something that isn't true. 

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15 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The heavy burden of proof will be on Aegon's shoulders.  It will be hard to prove something that isn't true. 

People believe Joffrey and Tommen. They're in power and they have the power to back it up. If Aegon can show he has the same, people will believe him. The truth doesn't matter, the self interests of the lords of Westeros does.

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On 9/11/2021 at 1:37 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Didn't know you were there. 

Pretty safe to infer that an oath was made. Ned put everything he had on the line when he made the decision to bring Jon home and raise him as his own bastard. Reed was either in the dark, compelled to secrecy or had to die to keep the secret (do you see a 4th option here?). Probably made the oath by ice and fire and bronze and iron and whatever else the kids' swore to Bran by. Ned didn't even tell his wife and he had like 17 years to come around to it, but he didn't think to secure a promise from his bannerman that he would keep the same fidelity? That would be pretty sloppy.

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On 9/12/2021 at 12:48 PM, Lord Lannister said:

People believe Joffrey and Tommen. They're in power and they have the power to back it up. If Aegon can show he has the same, people will believe him. The truth doesn't matter, the self interests of the lords of Westeros does.

Joffrey and Tommen have a known history.  Aegon, or whatever his name might be, is a stranger who will claim to be the child long-believed and witnessed to have died.  That is not easy to do.  Self-interests is to support the Lannisters, who have the wealth, the throne, and the means to grant rewards. 

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7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Joffrey and Tommen have a known history.  Aegon, or whatever his name might be, is a stranger who will claim to be the child long-believed and witnessed to have died.  That is not easy to do.  Self-interests is to support the Lannisters, who have the wealth, the throne, and the means to grant rewards. 

Agreed, (f)Aegon definitely has an uphill battle. His main advantage is Westeros is war weary and elements of the lords and populace are tired of the Baratheon(Lannister) rule. If he shows himself to have a chance to win there will be those who will support him, regardless of what the truth of his lineage is. Stannis was a perfect example of how much the truth actually matters.

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On 9/10/2021 at 6:54 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

What character developmemt would it give to him if he happens to be the bastard of another man (Rhaegar Targaryen) , and not Eddard's?

Nothing. Literally nothing.

Character development doesn't come from the circumstances of their birth. It comes from what they do themselves in life.

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If it doesn't put any weight on the table, wasn't it always pointless?

"R+L=J is much more about what Ned did in his past than what Jon will do in his future"

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And Howland knows this

How. Was he one of the witnesses?

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Jon wanted to be a Stark (aka legitimate) his entire life

Making him a legitimate Targaryen will not make him a Stark. He's a Stark, de facto if not de jure, because Ned raised as him as his son.

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He might never ring up Young Griff if he knows he isn't really Aegon IV

How would he know that?

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20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Character development doesn't come from the circumstances of their birth. It comes from what they do themselves in life.

Circumstances of his birth aren't the same as his true heritage. As of circumstances of birth, it really doesn't matter if he's been born in a brothel or a castle. Character development can actually come from revelation of a secret that indedd reveals he ain't no bastard. That's why I argued that becoming Rhaegar's or anyone else's bastard with the woman he tought to be his aunt but never met would give him no development, whereas being a legitimate child of Lyanna and X would, X being anyone you want, including Rhaegar. The thing that made him join the Night's Watch is that he is a bastard, and he would never want to father any children due to him being a bastard himself, since that would make his children bastards as well, which, according to him, isn't a really good condition to live with for a lifetime. This isn't a circumstance of birth, and matters rather much, especially to Jon.

I'd give you an example as well, from a story that inspired George's work as well: The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon. When a lombard guy named Giannino Baglioni was told he is the trueborn son of Louis X and Clementia of Hungary, just hours after he tought of the people that he believed to be his parents as his foster parents. The guy wasn't in a need to believe the thing and didn't hate his parents either. Nor was he a bad guy. Basically had no reason to believe the tale, yet he did. 

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That is a random quote. An opinion. If Jon's real heritage would never put any weight on the story, then it wouldn't even matter. Would need no revelation, since it doesn't bring any significance.

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How. Was he one of the witnesses?

I wrote a few, and rather long comments here. Quote me more accurately so that I could actually get what Howland knows.

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How. Was he one of the witnesses?

Never said it does. I argued that Jon hated that he was born a bastard, and if he had a chance to choose between being a bastard or legitimate (in any way), he would've chosen the latter. And so far I don't see how he could've desired being a legitimate Targaryen or anything else beside a Stark. He believes his father is Eddard STARK.

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How would he know that?

Never said he would. People like to question everything. For that reason I said what I said, not because I think Howland Reed has the capability to know it, but some might do believe that.

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8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Character development can actually come from revelation of a secret

Character development for JON would have to come from a secret JON kept. If it's NED's secret, then it's development for NED's character.

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The thing that made him join the Night's Watch is that he is a bastard, and he would never want to father any children due to him being a bastard himself, since that would make his children bastards as well

Him joining the Night's Watch is indeed an action from JON relevant for the development of his character. But it's not the case that all children of bastards are themselves bastards. Longwaters are descended from a bastard originally surnamed "Waters", but they added the "Long" to indicate that subsequent generations weren't bastards. Orys Baratheon was a bastard, and he founded one of the highest ranking houses in Westeros. Joining the Nights Watch makes any marriage legally void, so it would actually ENSURE any subsequent children would be bastards!

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just hours after he tought of the people that he believed to be his parents as his foster parents

Just hours after what? And how important is that character to the main series?

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If Jon's real heritage would never put any weight on the story, then it wouldn't even matter.

It matters with regard to NED. And if you think that dead characters can't get character development, recall what we've learned of Rhaegar's motivations.

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Never said it does.

Right after complaining about inaccurate quotation (and I'm not sure why), you proceeded to duplicate a quote and respond with what would be a non-sequitur to that quote. I think you intended to respond to "Making him a legitimate Targaryen will not make him a Stark".

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And so far I don't see how he could've desired being a legitimate Targaryen or anything else beside a Stark

Correct, although one could point to him & Robb pretending to be various historical Targaryens as children :)

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5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Character development for JON would have to come from a secret JON kept. If it's NED's secret, then it's development for NED's character.

So if your parents would tell you you're adopted, that would make no development in you, since it was your parent's secret? Makes no sense to me. 

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Him joining the Night's Watch is indeed an action from JON relevant for the development of his character. But it's not the case that all children of bastards are themselves bastards. Longwaters are descended from a bastard originally surnamed "Waters", but they added the "Long" to indicate that subsequent generations weren't bastards. Orys Baratheon was a bastard, and he founded one of the highest ranking houses in Westeros. Joining the Nights Watch makes any marriage legally void, so it would actually ENSURE any subsequent children would be bastards!

I know all that. In light if all that I said ehat I said, since that is what Jon himself thinks. Not sure if you believe me or not. I could quote it as well, it's in AGOT, but rather hard to find. If you really want it, I'll find it for ya. 

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Just hours after what? And how important is that character to the main series?

Hours after the truth was revealed to him. And he was an important character. All the fAegon and Jon stuff is based upon his case. 

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It matters with regard to NED. And if you think that dead characters can't get character development, recall what we've learned of Rhaegar's motivations.

I don't think dead characters can't get character development. If RLJ, or Jon's true heritage would only develop Ned, it wouldn't bear such a significance to George as well. He wouldn't have to say that he hid Howland because he knew too much, he wouldn't have to announce how much will be revealed about Jon in TWOW, etc.. He could just spill it anytime, as it bears no significance to the evolving story. According to you. But he himself hypes it instead. 

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Right after complaining about inaccurate quotation (and I'm not sure why), you proceeded to duplicate a quote and respond with what would be a non-sequitur to that quote. I think you intended to respond to "Making him a legitimate Targaryen will not make him a Stark".

Sorry bout that. And it's not like I've been complaining. I didn't know where the sequence comes from, what it refers to, just said I can't answer it with no bad intentions. 

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13 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So if your parents would tell you you're adopted, that would make no development in you

I'd be the same person I was before. There might be an interesting story in how I react to that news, but the revelation itself is not character development for me.

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that is what Jon himself thinks

Children born outside of wedlock are bastards by definition, and Jon is unmarried. At the time he decides to join the NW there don't seem to be any immediate prospects of marriage for him either.

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Hours after the truth was revealed to him

Hours after the truth is revealed to him... the same exact truth is revealed to him again?

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If RLJ, or Jon's true heritage would only develop Ned, it wouldn't bear such a significance to George as well

Why not? Ned's legacy is still a huge deal. In ADWD there are northmen prepared to march off and die for "the Ned's girl".

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He could just spill it anytime, as it bears no significance to the evolving story

He said as early as the pitch letter that it would be revealed in the final book, and he's also said he's not changing the ending. The implications would be different, because in the pitch letter Arya & Jon fell in love despite being half-siblings and R+L=J would just make them cousins (raised as siblings, so I'm glad GRRM ditched that).

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12 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Hours after the truth is revealed to him... the same exact truth is revealed to him again?

Don't really understand how you still don't put the two together:

On 9/29/2021 at 5:51 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

I'd give you an example as well, from a story that inspired George's work as well: The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon. When a lombard guy named Giannino Baglioni was told he is the trueborn son of Louis X and Clementia of Hungary, just hours after he tought of the people that he believed to be his parents as his foster parents. The guy wasn't in a need to believe the thing and didn't hate his parents either. Nor was he a bad guy. Basically had no reason to believe the tale, yet he did. 

Someone told the guy who he actually is, and it only took him a few hours to think of his parents as his foster parents (the people he tought are his parents his entire life), since the truth about his real parents was revealed.

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