Ser Alliser's True Purpose

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

Alliser Thorne was a Targaryen Loyalist from house Thorne in the Crownlands. As he fought loyally to the bitter end, there was no pardon for him after the war ended. given the choice between death and king the black, Alliser chose a cloak. At the wall, the bitter knight became master at arms, a position he kept until being removed by the old bear.

Despite everything, one could say he even liked Jon a little bit before Jon started disregarding Alliser's training to help Sam. he bullied Jon, sure, but no more than most until then. Jon was the son of one of the people who took everything from him, so some animosity seems reasonable. their relationship grew worse as alliser's opinion of the Starks fell further after Neds supposed treason. Alliser was even amongst those who tried to hang Jon after the boy returned to the wall. He failed and the boy became his commander.

Alliser was last seen leaving the wall to range. perhaps he will die, but I think not. lucky as we have it, he missed the mutiny at castle black, and will likely be absent during the subsequent massacre carried out by the wildling. 

And when there is some calm, Jon will be consigned to the flame. and he will not burn, not but his black hair and black cloak. and he will rise. and when he rises his eyes lighten in shade, and when his hair grows back it will come back white as snow (or ash).

And when the Ranger returns, when ser Alliser sees his lord commander, and mind you alliser is one of very few people at the wall with even the potential to know what Rheagar looked like, he will put two and two together. that is why Ser Alliser is at the Wall. This information to be provided will be his purpose, this will be how Jon discovers his heritage, and the bitter knight will realize he has a chance to serve his true liege lord and find his redemption as Jon's loyal knight.

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

I've actually always wondered how Alliser would react if he knew who Jon really was. I definitely have a hard time imagining him as anything other than the embittered man that he is. That said, a redemption arc definitely would be an interesting turn for him and Alliser declaring he has to be Rhaegar's son might hold more weight behind it than Jon's brother hearing it from the trees, his father's crazy frog eating friend saying it's so or finding a tablet in his aunt Lyann-- I mean his mom's tomb. 

[Fencer]

Interesting thoughts.  I know Thorne is typically as a "bad guy" but I always rather liked him because, while harsh, he is normally pretty much right.

I would add an additional point of speculation: another person who quite possibly knows of Jon's true heritage also disappeared on a ranging.  Benjen.  So, now we have two people north of the wall, one who could claim Jon's heritage, and another who could lend credence to that claim.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

2 minutes ago, Fencer said:

I would add an additional point of speculation: another person who quite possibly knows of Jon's true heritage also disappeared on a ranging.  Benjen.  So, now we have two people north of the wall, one who could claim Jon's heritage, and another who could lend credence to that claim.

If alliser somehow returns from his ranging with Benjen I would lose my mind

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

If alliser somehow returns from his ranging with Benjen I would lose my mind

I don't think the testimony of wights would be considerable reliable to claims of royal lineage. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

Just now, Lord Lannister said:

I don't think the testimony of wights would be considerable reliable to claims of royal lineage. 

don't care. would still be awesome.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

 I'm with you on Thorne doing an about face when he finds out who Jon really is and I very much doubt that he will die before he learns.

I don't know about the specifics of your version of Jon's return, but they aren't the important part here so they're as good as anyone else's theories.

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

33 minutes ago, Fencer said:

Interesting thoughts.  I know Thorne is typically as a "bad guy" but I always rather liked him because, while harsh, he is normally pretty much right.

I've always liked his consistency, and I have to admit the guy that played him on TV gave the character some charisma that I've had trouble separating from the character in the book.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

25 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I don't know about the specifics of your version of Jon's return.

that fair. I'm a sucker for rule of cool, and if Jon doesn't become king (and every Targ king has had white hair), I would love it if he traded his black hair and black cloak for white hair and a white cloak. I mean I even believe his real name is Aemon Targaryen for goodness sake.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

that fair. I'm a sucker for rule of cool, and if Jon doesn't become king (and every Targ king has had white hair), I would love it if he traded his black hair and black cloak for white hair and a white cloak. I mean I even believe his real name is Aemon Targaryen for goodness sake.

It's all possible... I like the idea that they'll try to burn him and he'll step Dany like out of the pyre...

I like the idea of Jon coming back with wight hair, it's been suggested by a few folk I've read and there's more logic to it than just the Targ reveal...

I'm a little hung up on whether or not he'll be 'alive' enough for his hair to grow. If he's back without it, he might not get it back. Again though, I like the way you tie it to Dany, he might get the same grace that the fires granted her.

I'm expecting that many of us are going to infer a lot of big picture answers from the manner of Jon's resurrection and every little detail is going to inspire some serious theories, tirades and tangents.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

15 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm expecting that many of us are going to infer a lot of big picture answers from the manner of Jon's resurrection and every little detail is going to inspire some serious theories, tirades and tangents.

hehe yeah, I can't wait for that. I read the books relatively recently and joined the forum the same. it will be fun being part of the more preliminary chapter discussions when/if winds comes out

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

And when the Ranger returns, when ser Alliser sees his lord commander, and mind you alliser is one of very few people at the wall with even the potential to know what Rheagar looked like, he will put two and two together.

Of course all of this completely ignores the fact that we've already been told, repeatedly, that Jon's facial features looks like a Stark through and through.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course all of this completely ignores the fact that we've already been told, repeatedly, that Jon's facial features looks like a Stark through and through.

I don't know about 'completely'. You can see both myself and her mother when you look at my daughter's face and her mother doesn't look a thing like me.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

11 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

hehe yeah, I can't wait for that. I read the books relatively recently and joined the forum the same. it will be fun being part of the more preliminary chapter discussions when/if winds comes out

It would have been nice to have been the first guy to post 'Jojen paste' or something as controversial to these forums...

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course all of this completely ignores the fact that we've already been told, repeatedly, that Jon's facial features looks like a Stark through and through.

people see what they expect to see. black hair and black eyes, a known son of a stark, people will look for stark features and recognize those parts best, especially in the dark and snowy north. Dark purple eyes and white hair though... and maybe you recognize more- once you know to look. and its not as though the Lyanna Stark Revelation is so hard to consider if your already considering which Targaryen had a Stark at the time.

"His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy's." -Dance

"Men see what they expect to see, Alayne." -Feast

"Can I have a sword to run them off with?" Egg asked. He had blue eyes, Dunk saw, very dark, almost purple. His bald head made them seem huge, somehow." -the mystery knight

[Darth Sidious]

Aliser’s purpose is to show that doing the right thing, staying loyal to your king, will sometimes result in hardships. Aliser is the kind of knight you want. He was loyal to his king and defended the capital city. He was just unfortunate in that his side lost. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

It's all possible... I like the idea that they'll try to burn him and he'll step Dany like out of the pyre...

 

That Dany pyre thing was a one time only. 

 

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course all of this completely ignores the fact that we've already been told, repeatedly, that Jon's facial features looks like a Stark through and through.

It could be that he has other traits:build, nose, lips, shape of eyes, little things like that. Maybe Jon Connington would help with that? He does have an obsession with Rhaegar, so he'd probably see stuff others wouldn't. 

 

 

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

That Dany pyre thing was a one time only. 

I think there is two reasons to believe this was not a one time only thing. 

1. Dany survived Drogon breathing fire on her in the pit in Meereen, suggesting a Valyrian natural resistance to fire. So not a one time thing already. (and a trait I would be surprised if she alone possesed)

2. foreshadowing from the chapter they burned dead nights watchmen

"Sam was red-eyed and sick from the smoke. When he looked at the fire, he thought he saw Bannen sitting up, his hands coiling into fists as if to fight off the flames that were consuming him, but it was only for an instant, before the swirling smoke hid all."

Jon's body will instead withstand the flame.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

people see what they expect to see.

Ah yes, people seeing what they expect or want to see despite the evidence to the contrary, I wonder if you can see the irony here.  

But let's go sift through the facts:

Forget hair and eye color, and just look at facial features:

Quote

Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones.

 

Quote

He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.”
“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

Quote

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Catelyn certainly doesn't want to see her husband in Jon's face, but even she is perturbed about how much Jon looks like Eddard.

Quote

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. 

Quote

Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine.

And before you argue that people are only seeing the Stark features because they know Jon Snow is supposed to be Ned's son, Craster who didn't know Jon from Adam, takes one look at him and sees a Stark:

Quote

“Who’s this one now?” Craster said before Jon could go. “He has the look of a Stark.”
“My steward and squire, Jon Snow.”

So my challenge to you is to go through the books and find support about any Valyrian features that Jon may have, or any hint thereof, where a simple change of hair color will announce to the world Jon's "true" heritage.

[Julia H.]

Interesting topic. I, for one, certainly hope that Thorne will find out who Jon really is, if only to see his reaction to such a revelation. 

As for phyiscally "recognizing" Jon as a Targaryen descendant... I am not sure Alliser spent enough time close to Rhaegar to remember the more subtle details of his features after all these years. No one who we know was indeed more or less close to Rhaegar seems to recall Thorne.

On the one hand, I agree that Jon has obvious and very easily recognizable Stark features. Apparently, he is a Stark through and through. Most of that would not be changed by white hair - but we have been reminded several times that at least the apparent colour of the eyes changes with the colour of the hair. I suppose it does not even have to be the colour of the hair - the colour of the clothes the person is wearing, the natural light of the environment can also probably do some tricks. Now, we know that black has always been Jon's colour, even before he officially took the black, and he has never been away from the Northern climate. It means that suprises in this respect are just possible - I'm not saying something should or will necessarily happen to reveal Jon's "purple" eyes, but the possibility is there. 

Another thing in the books that I find interesting is that the only person around Jon who definitely knew Rhaegar well enough to remember his looks in detail after so many years is blind. That's, of course, Maester Aemon. And that, again, just makes it possible that besides all the Stark features, there could be something in Jon - not even necessarily in his face, it could be the way he walks, the way he smiles, the way he makes a certain gesture - that could remind people of Rhaegar, provided they knew Rhaegar well and are sufficiently interested in Jon Snow to look at him long enough to notice these features.  

To continue this totally idle speculation, Jon does have a predisposition to melancholy, just like Rhaegar - but then so does Ned, I guess. Yet another interesting circumstance is that there are no singers in Winterfell, and the boys' education does not include anything remotely artistic - so Jon Snow probably never had the chance to try his talent with a harp or learn to sing (a pastime Ned would probably have never tolerated with regard to Jon Snow anyway). 

So, yes, much is made of Jon Snow's Stark features, and if he has anything that he has inherited from his biological father, it is carefully hidden. 

Back to the main point of the thread, Thorne's reaction to this piece of news would be extremely interesting, because we cannot be sure what it might be beyond the obvious surprise. Would his Targaryen loyalty win out over his deep-rooted dislike of the person? Does his Targaryen loyalty still exist at all, after what he considers half a lifetime of unfair punishment for his original loyalty / for not being smart enough to switch sides before it was too late? What does this bitter man think of his youthful self after his years on the Wall - would he voluntarily fight / take personal risks for a Targaryen or for any sort of a king again? Would he see following an LC-turned-king as his own best chance to leave the Wall, and would such hopes be realistic at all, or bound to lead to disappointment?