Ser Alliser's True Purpose

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is a fundamental difference between the passages concerning Egg’s eyes and Young Griff’s and the passage concerning Jon’s eye color.

We first meet Egg through the POV, (i.e. the eyes) of Duncan the Tall.  Likewise we’re introduced to Young Griff through the lens of Tyrion’s POV.  So we’re learning about Egg and Young Griff through the subjective observations fo another character.

Jon’s description is a different beast.  The description of Jon’s grey eyes are given in Jon’s own POV chapter.  So since it’s unlikely that Jon is actively thinking about his eye color as he searches for Sam in the catacombs, we’re getting a description of Jon unfiltered from the author himself.

So it’s fairly safe to say, that unequivocally Jon’s eyes are dark, but that they are dark grey, not purple.  

this is a fair argument but I have some problems with it and it has to do with the nature of the mystery surrounding Jon. most simply put, George is intentionally coy regarding Jon's heritage. if he did have purple eyes, and for the purposes of fairness, im not trying to stay that he definitely does, but if he did, and George was trying to hide Jon's heritage, he would not state that Jon's eyes were purple in any way so early in the book, but he would foster uncertainty by saying it looked so much like one thing that it looked like another thing. he would present the information in a common conception way, how most people see Jon or how Jon considers himself. anyone who saw those eyes would assume they are grey like ned's because they think he is Ned's son, Jon included. any thoughts otherwise would ironically be dismissed as trick of the light.

now in addition to this there are just so many examples of black and purple juxtaposed in Asoiaf, in eyes and not concerning eyes. (put purple and black in a search of ice and fire and you'll see)

now regarding eyes lets look at dark star:

"His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry." 

and that's with silver hair and a dornish sun.

Young griff

"Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman's."

and we know his eyes are lighter than Rheagar's were.

So clearly in dark lighting, targ eyes can easily be misidentified as black, Jons eyes seem almost black, and basically he looks outwardly stark so people assume they are dark grey, not so dark purple.

Not concerning eyes, we have an association of black and purple concerning Berric, who is linked to fire magic. that could be coincidental, but could also very well be a hint at the nature of Jons revival and the color impactions.. but perhaps that much is reaching.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now I don’t think that it’s very good evidence that Rhaegar couldn’t be Jon’s dad.  Early on, it’s brought out that Arya has brown hair, and grey eyes, and looks like Ned and his sister Lyanna.  So unlike her other siblings she looks like a Stark and not a Tully.  But it’s un debatable that her mother is Catelyn Tully.  

So the fact that Jon looks like Ned in the face, and he has brown hair and grey eyes, isn’t good evidence that Rhaegar couldn’t be his dad.  

But it’s probably a safe bet that Jon’s hair changing color isn’t suddenly going to make Jon look like a Targaryen.  There isn’t anything in any of the passages to suggest that.  If his hair changes to white, he’s going to look like a Stark with white hair.

I have no problem with this likening to the steel. it makes enough sense and could be seen as evidence for, in my opinion at least. 

and mayhaps there are no targ features to be founded. but if there are, a hair and eye change would make them more apparnt to those familiar with such features, Thorne being the best candidate on the wall to identify such. Northmen are also known for being more burly and strong, like Robb, so in term of physicality and body structure, Jon may resemble Rheagar at the same age. 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now, I would add that the idea of Thorne “crowning” Jon is an intriguing one.  I think the author has intentionally attributed some “Christ” imagery to Jon.  And Jesus was called “the king of kings”.  Of course he never held an earthly monarchy, or sat on a throne.  But he did have a crown, specifically a crown of thorns.  And the crown was meant to mock him and cause him pain.  Much like Thorne does to Jon.

So Jesus was a king of sorts, just not a king of Israel or Rome.  In the terms of mythology, Jesus could be considered a “corn king”.

And in fact Mormont’s raven perhaps refers to this very notion:

The Corn King, much like Jesus, is all about death and rebirth.  Dies in the winter to help feed the people, and then is reborn in spring.

So if Jon is a sort of “corn king”, then to be crowned as such, he first needs to be killed.  So if Thorne does have to do with “crowning” Jon, it might be as suggested above, that he might have been involved in Jon’s murder.  After all to crown the Corn King, is to kill the Corn King.

I actually love this train of thought, ive read a few version that toy with the idea of Jon as a corn king. there are more than a few ways this could be incorporated, even a mocking crown given by throne to the would be king beyond the walls, but just as well you bring up that Jesus was resurrected by god. its stands to reason then that if Jon is the corn king he will be resurrected as the champion of a god (especially one meant to defeat winter). Azor ahai will be born again under conditions simulare to what Jon is in. though I guess what's more important here in this part of the argument is Jon's role, not what color hair he has.

[Frey family reunion]

I would also note that there may be some foreshadowing in Thorne being the cause or contributing factor to Jon's "crowning".  Thorne was the one who put the mocking title of "Lord Snow" on Jon.  So if Thorne could elevate Jon to a lord, even if in a mocking fashion, it would be an interesting turn of events if Thorne was also the one to give Jon the title of "King Snow" as well.

And if Jon dies only to be resurrected, I think that event in and of itself might be enough to cause Thorne to bend the knee, without the further wrinkle of Thorne suddenly recognizing Jon to be a Targaryen.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

his is a fair argument but I have some problems with it and it has to do with the nature of the mystery surrounding Jon. most simply put, George is intentionally coy regarding Jon's heritage. if he did have purple eyes, and for the purposes of fairness, im not trying to stay that he definitely does, but if he did, and George was trying to hide Jon's heritage, he would not state that Jon's eyes were purple in any way so early in the book, but he would foster uncertainty by saying it looked so much like one thing that it looked like another thing.

I'm not really hung up in eye color as some type of evidence towards legitimacy.  Like I stated above with Arya the author has already laid the groundwork that strongly favoring one parent isn't proof that the other parent couldn't be your true parent.  And the author has spent too much time hammering home that Jon looks like a Stark.  

I think it's doubtful that this late in the game Jon's story arc is suddenly going to veer towards some political intrigue concerning the Iron Throne.  If Jon is Rhaegar's son than my guess is it is going to have more to do with the prophecies concerning Rhaegar's offspring than it will some type of fictional legitimacy towards a throne created by murder and terror, i.e. fire and blood, and passed on through a further fiction of patrilineality.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would also note that there may be some foreshadowing in Thorne being the cause or contributing factor to Jon's "crowning".  Thorne was the one who put the mocking title of "Lord Snow" on Jon.  So if Thorne could elevate Jon to a lord, even if in a mocking fashion, it would be an interesting turn of events if Thorne was also the one to give Jon the title of "King Snow" as well.

This would be absolutely lovely literary symmetry.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if Jon dies only to be resurrected, I think that event in and of itself might be enough to cause Thorne to bend the knee, without the further wrinkle of Thorne suddenly recognizing Jon to be a Targaryen.

perhaps, but Jon's heritage must/should be revealed at some point and this is as good a time as any and a better way than most. there is a difference between a demon stark resurrected, and a noble Targaryen resurrected. perception of the resurrection is as important as the resurrection itself. the former would make alliser weary of Jon, while the latter may make him revere him. for a former targ loyalist, there will be a difference.

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not really hung up in eye color as some type of evidence towards legitimacy.  Like I stated above with Arya the author has already laid the groundwork that strongly favoring one parent isn't proof that the other parent couldn't be your true parent.  And the author has spent too much time hammering home that Jon looks like a Stark.  

I think it's doubtful that this late in the game Jon's story arc is suddenly going to veer towards some political intrigue concerning the Iron Throne.  If Jon is Rhaegar's son than my guess is it is going to have more to do with the prophecies concerning Rhaegar's offspring than it will some type of fictional legitimacy towards a throne created by murder and terror, i.e. fire and blood, and passed on through a further fiction of patrilineality.

you may not be hung up on it, but evidence to my argument is there and is reasonable. Jons eyes very well might be dark purple, he will probably be burned and lose all his hair, and if his targ genes are activated, that it might come back white is not far fetched. his face may be stark but his body doesn't seem to be. it does not have to happen the way I said it would, im not George, im just stating that as things exist, this is a way events could unfold reasonably from a literary fantasy standpoint and there is a sound reason to believe that this is the case if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. and if he does come back it is also important that the coloration be identified as like Rhaegar and not say, like Ashara. there is a difference here and Thorne is the man to point it out unless reed gets his ass to the wall.

And as Jon stands, he is set up to be the legal heir to the kingdom of the north which are rightfully brans or rickons. he is also a claimant for prince of dragonstone and the heir to the iron throne (if faegon is true). he is basically already king beyond the wall or the king of the wall. he has enemies in the Lannisters boltons and Freys, and he will be part of the intrigue of the seven kingdoms in one way or another, and his lessons are the ones he learned at the wall. those enemies arnt going away, nor are the potential enemies of faegon and dany. if conflict is to be avoided though, Jon being a Targaryen would go a long way in creating the possibility of peace though marriage. and if Jon is to be king of the seven kingdoms in any way, he needs white hair, something every targ king has had.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

"None taken, Ser Jaremy. My father is very fond of spiked heads, especially those of people who have annoyed him in some fashion. And a face as noble as yours, well, no doubt he saw you decorating the city wall above the King's Gate. I think you would have looked very striking up there."

 

gargoyles and grotesques?

Fighting beside, and the wrong side, may be read several ways

[Nevets]

I think the likelihood of Alliser Thorne seeing the light and proclaiming Jon as the Targaryen heir is essentially zero.  That is Jon's misfortune: to find out he is part-Targaryen, and have no proof to exhibit of it.  Those who want to believe  it will have reason to do so, and those who don't, will have reason not to believe it.  I'm guessing Thorne will be in the latter camp, if he lasts that long.

What his role in the story's future is unclear.  He could bring back news of a coming Others invasion, or a wildling one, for that matter.  He could show up right after the mutiny and do ... something (probably nothing that would help Jon though).  He might even run into Bran or Davos/Rickon in the wilderness and help them out.  That we will see him again, though, I do not doubt.  Characters like Thorne do not simply shuffle into the night, never to be heard of again, especially in this series.