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Dragons of Stone, Dragons of Ice: Prophecy misinterpreting building materials.

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There exists a prophecy, one where Azor Ahai will be reborn amongst smoke and salt, to wake dragons from stone. based on these words the strongest candidate for Azor Ahai would be Dany, for she woke dragon eggs from their stone shells. But there exists another who may be the prince who was promised: 

Jon Snow. (who says there can be only one?)

"But wait, Jon has no dragons," you may say. "And there are no stone dragons near him."

and that is true. he is surrounded by a magical structure instead made of ice.

Now, how did we get that prophecy again? who decided the words? "Prince" they say, but Dany is not a prince, those words were a misinterpretation, one that endured if Dany is to be believed to be our promised savior. Most like then, these words were an interpretation of a visual prophecy, once seen in flame as red priests do, and one where there may be a mistake in what is seen and interpreted and what is. 

If you live in a continent without a massive ice wall and see a vision of a dragon emerging from a rigid wall, what do you assume the wall is made of? I would claim Stone. so of course you believe it is the stone dragon Azor Ahai must awaken. You would likely not even consider ice.

Well in the north of Westeros is the Wall. magic, made of ice. 

And we have legends of Ice Dragons, these more mythical beasts. maybe the inclusion of this creature is just an Easter egg for georges children story the ice dragon, but its not mentioned just once. Jon refers to the consultation the ice dragon as his friend. Jon compares the cold gusts of the wall to the breath of the cold dragons both in Swords and Dance. Ice dragons were said to be made of living ice, and were native to the Shivering Sea.

Jon was stabbed while Ser Patrek of king's mountain, whose person device is a Blue five pointed star, bled in bloody mess. Jons wounds smoked(well steamed/ (or the smoke will be from his pyre) and those who stabbed him cried (or when he is in his pyre mourners will cry). plus he has kings blood

So its not a stone dragon that will be awoken, But an Ice Dragon.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
slight change to title

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Stars and blood on a surcoat. Those are lame compared to the red comet.  I don’t buy your argument. We have it from Bran that Jon’s body will lose all memory of warmth. That clue doesn’t seem to point to cremation. Jon is all ice. He is the illegitimate child of Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark.  

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40 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Stars and blood on a surcoat. Those are lame compared to the red comet.  I don’t buy your argument. We have it from Bran that Jon’s body will lose all memory of warmth. That clue doesn’t seem to point to cremation. Jon is all ice.

Bold of you to assume that that part was original. its one of the older theories surrounding how Jon fulfills the prophecy. 

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Dany's red comet was witnessed and presumed to be true for many (Joff's comet, ect.). the case of Ser Patrick more accurately fulfills the prophecy the star bled vs a blood red comet (not a star), especially with Jon's death happening at the cusp of the start of winter, its is an event exclusively for Jon, so to speak. and he did die right after it (presumably). it is the practice of both wildings and the watch to burn the dead, so whatever side succeeds will try to burn him most like. 

Unless we are to also presume that dany is a fire wight (seems not) than Jon can be an ice wight (for a bit- he will push out the ice conscious using after starting his second life in ghost) and survive the fire, because he is half Targaryen. the traitors burned with in his pyre will not survive, nor will shireen most like, and in the case of this theory argument at least, awaken the ice dragons.

40 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

He is the illegitimate child of Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark.  

This on the other hand is perhaps one of the stupidest theories on this forum. And I feel bad saying that because I support many of the out their theories just because they are interesting and stimulate further conversation, But the theory is worth about as much as a theory of joff being mance and Lysa's kid. just incredibly stupid.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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An ice dragon of the wall will come to be but it won't be of Jon or Jon's, it will be Stannis after he sacrifices Shireen, and it will make good on some of the things Mel is seeing in visions. It won't be the fruition of the AA prophesy though.

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26 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

An ice dragon of the wall will come to be but it won't be of Jon or Jon's, it will be Stannis after he sacrifices Shireen, and it will make good on some of the things Mel is seeing in visions. It won't be the fruition of the AA prophesy though.

"Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

did you mean this vision? im not sure what other examples there are of her expressing her visions or us reading her interpretations during the fact rather than an interpretation after the fact (re Arya/Alys, etc)

I'm not sure how this support Stannis though. did you have another quote in mind?

I feel like Val is more likely to burn the girl than stannis ever will be, but maybe he gets desperate. Are you of the opinion that stannis will be nights king?

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4 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

"Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

did you mean this vision? im not sure what other examples there are of her expressing her visions or us reading her interpretations during the fact rather than an interpretation after the fact (re Arya/Alys, etc)

I'm not sure how this support Stannis though. did you have another quote in mind?

I feel like Val is more likely to burn the girl than stannis ever will be, but maybe he gets desperate. Are you of the opinion that stannis will be nights king?

Things like him standing on the ramparts of Winterfell will probably be the ice dragon perching on Winterfell walls, and honestly I can't remember much more and it's not the thrust of the point. I am getting a bit forgetful, been a long time since I went over this stuff. This is what really matters.

In HOTU vision of Stannis

Quote

 . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

And the Ice Dragon description from TWOIAF. 

Quote

Of all the queer and fabulous denizens of the Shivering Sea, however, the greatest are the ice dragons. These colossal beasts, many times larger than the dragons of Valyria, are said to be made of living ice, with eyes of pale blue crystal and vast translucent wings through which the moon and stars can be glimpsed as they wheel across the sky. Whereas common dragons (if any dragon can truly be said to be common) breathe flame, ice dragons supposedly breathe cold, a chill so terrible that it can freeze a man solid in half a heartbeat.

See the matching beats.

Stannis has blue eyes, remarked on repeatedly by characters in the series. Included in the HOTU vision. The ice dragon particularly has blue eyes.

The ice dragon has translucent wings. Translucent means light passes through, AKA, cast no shadow. HOTU vision has the king casting no shadow. Stannis used shadown babies via Mel and now according to her his life force is so weak she won't do it again, as in he's lost his ability to cast shadows.

Think of the symbolism related to shadows and particularly the shadow of a dragon's wings, it's a common point in the text, for example Balerion was said to have wings so vast towns were swallowed up their shadow. It relates to influence. Now think translucent wings, they let light through so in one sense they cast no shadow, but in another sense they fragment light and do queer things with it. With that in mind consider this quote from Stannis.

Quote

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

That's what the world looks like under the translucent ice dragon's wings, Stannis's projections (possibly the sunlight being dispersed beneath the ice dragon's wings will allow the Others to walk beneath it which is what the Long Night actually is). 

To argue the point thematically. The symbol of R'hllor, the AA symbolism is a burning heart. Ironically Stannis has taken it for his arms. Rhaego's heart burns out his chest in Dany's waking the dragon dream, his body is dragon like with a hole burnt in it's chest (I think from memory). When Dany woke dragons it was an act of passion, fire, an emotional attempt to save Drogo, and so came to being fire dragons. When Stannis burns Shireen it will be the coldest most harsh decision in the series. It will be purely ice hearted. And what will come of it will be the ice dragon.

As a bonus. Three big enemies for Dany, since AGOT.

Quote

Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; (1) black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, (2) roaring griffins, (3) manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. 

And

Quote

(1) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. (2) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. (3) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies

They're the same three things. Stannis/ice dragon, Faegon/Griff and Euron/sphinx/stone beast.

"jewels for eyes", jewels like that of the ice dragon "with eyes of pale blue crystal". "black iron dragons" as Stannis is said to be made of iron, "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." Ice too will shatter rather than bend (much). Iron seems to be the go to material under the wall, possibly the ice dragon will have a skeletal iron frame.

As to why the wall would make up the ice of the ice dragon the case for that would be made through the various stories relating to the wall like the night's king and just the flat out narrative and symbolic convenience of it. Ice dragon needs lots of ice, the wall is lots of ice, the wall needs to fall for the Others to advance, the ice dragon would be their champion.

Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen to bring to life a dragon, and he's going to die. His or her soul or both is going to be trapped in the wall (physically the blue crystals that become the eyes), it's going to animate it as a dragon. The ice dragon will be his or her or both their second lives (it may be that he doesn't become the dragon but Shireen does and he an Other that rides her).

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35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Things like him standing on the ramparts of Winterfell will probably be the ice dragon perching on Winterfell walls, and honestly I can't remember much more and it's not the thrust of the point. I am getting a bit forgetful, been a long time since I went over this stuff. This is what really matters.

In HOTU vision of Stannis

And the Ice Dragon description from TWOIAF. 

See the matching beats.

Stannis has blue eyes, remarked on repeatedly by characters in the series. Included in the HOTU vision. The ice dragon particularly has blue eyes.

The ice dragon has translucent wings. Translucent means light passes through, AKA, cast no shadow. HOTU vision has the king casting no shadow. Stannis used shadown babies via Mel and now according to her his life force is so weak she won't do it again, as in he's lost his ability to cast shadows.

Think of the symbolism related to shadows and particularly the shadow of a dragon's wings, it's a common point in the text, for example Balerion was said to have wings so vast towns were swallowed up their shadow. It relates to influence. Now think translucent wings, they let light through so in one sense they cast no shadow, but in another sense they fragment light and do queer things with it. With that in mind consider this quote from Stannis.

That's what the world looks like under the translucent ice dragon's wings, Stannis's projections (possibly the sunlight being dispersed beneath the ice dragon's wings will allow the Others to walk beneath it which is what the Long Night actually is). 

To argue the point thematically. The symbol of R'hllor, the AA symbolism is a burning heart. Ironically Stannis has taken it for his arms. Rhaego's heart burns out his chest in Dany's waking the dragon dream, his body is dragon like with a hole burnt in it's chest (I think from memory). When Dany woke dragons it was an act of passion, fire, an emotional attempt to save Drogo, and so came to being fire dragons. When Stannis burns Shireen it will be the coldest most harsh decision in the series. It will be purely ice hearted. And what will come of it will be the ice dragon.

As a bonus. Three big enemies for Dany, since AGOT.

And

They're the same three things. Stannis/ice dragon, Faegon/Griff and Euron/sphinx/stone beast.

"jewels for eyes", jewels like that of the ice dragon "with eyes of pale blue crystal". "black iron dragons" as Stannis is said to be made of iron, "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." Ice too will shatter rather than bend (much). Iron seems to be the go to material under the wall, possibly the ice dragon will have a skeletal iron frame.

As to why the wall would make up the ice of the ice dragon the case for that would be made through the various stories relating to the wall like the night's king and just the flat out narrative and symbolic convenience of it. Ice dragon needs lots of ice, the wall is lots of ice, the wall needs to fall for the Others to advance, the ice dragon would be their champion.

Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen to bring to life a dragon, and he's going to die. His or her soul or both is going to be trapped in the wall (physically the blue crystals that become the eyes), it's going to animate it as a dragon. The ice dragon will be his or her or both their second lives (it may be that he doesn't become the dragon but Shireen does and he an Other that rides her).

Thanks @chrisdaw that was a very comprehensive explanation of a very interesting theory.

Stannis definitely stands as the most obvious canidate for the blue eyed king given his eye color at birth and his faux light bringer. just as well, he has cast a shadow, and maybe it as you said, he is too weak to do so anymore, but could another interpretation not be that the blue eyes and lack of shadow are symbolic of someone who had become an ice wight? the representation could be more about the magic done to them than the actual physical apprentice is all I mean to say. many think Jon will become an ice wight in some capacity (momentarily in mine own opinion) and we have yet to see a real light bringer. though I suppose red sword could be interpreted in more than a few ways. Stannis still seems the best candidate for this role though, admittedly. Having said that, im not sure really comfortable conceding that matching eyes denotes a definite relationship with the ice dragons. that scene may have just been a vision based representation of who stannis is, like the cloth dragon is to fAegon. it also seems you don't think stannis will survive waking the dragons and lacking revival that would make him a poor azor ahai. I suppose this theory works best if the stone dragons are not in fact a misrepresentation of ice dragons as my theory necessitates but a separate entity yet to emerge.

Given his heritage and proximity/opportunity, Jon still seems the stronger candidate to wake the ice not stone dragons in my opinion, at least within the context of the conceit of the theory provided above.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
typo

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On 9/11/2021 at 5:22 AM, chrisdaw said:

Things like him standing on the ramparts of Winterfell will probably be the ice dragon perching on Winterfell walls, and honestly I can't remember much more and it's not the thrust of the point. I am getting a bit forgetful, been a long time since I went over this stuff. This is what really matters.

In HOTU vision of Stannis

And the Ice Dragon description from TWOIAF. 

See the matching beats.

Stannis has blue eyes, remarked on repeatedly by characters in the series. Included in the HOTU vision. The ice dragon particularly has blue eyes.

The ice dragon has translucent wings. Translucent means light passes through, AKA, cast no shadow. HOTU vision has the king casting no shadow. Stannis used shadown babies via Mel and now according to her his life force is so weak she won't do it again, as in he's lost his ability to cast shadows.

Think of the symbolism related to shadows and particularly the shadow of a dragon's wings, it's a common point in the text, for example Balerion was said to have wings so vast towns were swallowed up their shadow. It relates to influence. Now think translucent wings, they let light through so in one sense they cast no shadow, but in another sense they fragment light and do queer things with it. With that in mind consider this quote from Stannis.

That's what the world looks like under the translucent ice dragon's wings, Stannis's projections (possibly the sunlight being dispersed beneath the ice dragon's wings will allow the Others to walk beneath it which is what the Long Night actually is). 

To argue the point thematically. The symbol of R'hllor, the AA symbolism is a burning heart. Ironically Stannis has taken it for his arms. Rhaego's heart burns out his chest in Dany's waking the dragon dream, his body is dragon like with a hole burnt in it's chest (I think from memory). When Dany woke dragons it was an act of passion, fire, an emotional attempt to save Drogo, and so came to being fire dragons. When Stannis burns Shireen it will be the coldest most harsh decision in the series. It will be purely ice hearted. And what will come of it will be the ice dragon.

As a bonus. Three big enemies for Dany, since AGOT.

And

They're the same three things. Stannis/ice dragon, Faegon/Griff and Euron/sphinx/stone beast.

"jewels for eyes", jewels like that of the ice dragon "with eyes of pale blue crystal". "black iron dragons" as Stannis is said to be made of iron, "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." Ice too will shatter rather than bend (much). Iron seems to be the go to material under the wall, possibly the ice dragon will have a skeletal iron frame.

As to why the wall would make up the ice of the ice dragon the case for that would be made through the various stories relating to the wall like the night's king and just the flat out narrative and symbolic convenience of it. Ice dragon needs lots of ice, the wall is lots of ice, the wall needs to fall for the Others to advance, the ice dragon would be their champion.

Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen to bring to life a dragon, and he's going to die. His or her soul or both is going to be trapped in the wall (physically the blue crystals that become the eyes), it's going to animate it as a dragon. The ice dragon will be his or her or both their second lives (it may be that he doesn't become the dragon but Shireen does and he an Other that rides her).

HotU stanza 2 line 1: Stannis - that's kind of a no brainer. It jumps out of the text at you. So I agree.

HotU stanza 2 line 2: Aegon/Young Griff - highly likely since the cloth dragon fits well with the theory of Aegon not being who he thinks he is

HotU stanza 2 line 3: This one is obviously Bran. As far as I know there is no text ev at all for the stone beast being Euron. It's just someone's fantasy idea unsupported by the text. Whereas very heavy text ev is all over the place for the stone beast symbolizing Bran: The (literal!) stone beast even fell (took wing) at the very exact place that Bran fell in his first chapter. And that very spot is at a smoking tower too. Which in itself is positioned in a central location for the whole story. And much later in DwD when Theon discovers the fallen stone beast again GRRM even writes explicitly: "This is were they found Bran."

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 9:31 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

If you live in a continent without a massive ice wall and see a vision of a dragon emerging from a rigid wall, what do you assume the wall is made of? I would claim Stone. so of course you believe it is the stone dragon Azor Ahai must awaken. You would likely not even consider ice.

There's this -

Quote

[the Wall] The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers, now the dirty white of old snow, and when a cloud passed before the sun it darkened to the pale grey of pitted stone.

 

Edited by Springwatch

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12 hours ago, Amris said:

This one is obviously Bran.

No it's Euron and for a whole wealth of reasons but to make the point succinctly.

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

Taking wing, as in flying, off of a tower.

Quote

 

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

 

The Stone Beast is Euron making his leap from a tower and flying, that is realising his ambition, succeeding in his plan, the birthing of a new god.

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No it's Euron and for a whole wealth of reasons but to make the point succinctly.

Taking wing, as in flying, off of a tower.

The Stone Beast is Euron making his leap from a tower and flying, that is realising his ambition, succeeding in his plan, the birthing of a new god.

Look: you have a right to like your theory obviously. But some theories are more likely than others :P

Your idea is that Euron speaking of metaphorical flying from some small non-descript tower (not even any tower of any importance mentioned anywhere else in the story) with no smoke, no stone beast and no shadow fire still makes it clear to you that Euron is meant by:  'stone beast' 'taking wing' from a 'smoking tower' breathing 'shadow fire'

That is - ah - quite a stretch. The only word  from the prophecy that is fulfilled in your idea is 'tower'. (Note that flying isn't mentioned in the HotU. The words are 'taking wing'.)

You don't want to hear Bran because it doesn't fit your theory. However contrary to your Euron idea in Bran's case every word of the prophecy is fulfilled. Literally. And it means an actual (and very important) tower (due to Bran's fall there and the Crypts of Winterfell under it) at a main location of the story that is mentioned repeatedly in the story, starting with Bran's very first chapter in book 1.

On 9/4/2021 at 12:34 PM, Amris said:

The stone beast taking wing from the smoking tower is a reference to Bran.

Short version:

1) Importance of the location

The HotU is the central piece of prophetic riddle in the whole series. Ergo the 'smoking tower has to be a location that is very important to the story, not some random tower we have hardly ever heard off.

The smoking tower is the Broken Tower in Winterfell. Winterfell is one of the two central locations of the story (the other being KL). Thus is very important to the story. It also is end-game material. And the Crypts of Winterfell and their secrets are under the tower.

2) Smoke

The smoke happens during the Burning of Winterfell. It gets mentioned lots of times. (Contrary to for example the burning of the Tower of the Hand in KL by Cersei where GRRM never mentions smoke at all. Strange, eh?)

3) Stone beast

From Bran's first chapter we learn that stone gargoyles adorn the first keep (next to the broken tower). In fact he climbs right along the gargoyles to reach the broken tower before he falls.

4) Takes wing

Gargoyles usually are depicted with wings. During the burning of winterfell chapter we learn that a whole side of the old keep (including its gargoyles) falls down ('takes wing'). Bran & Co then find gargoyles strewn about at the foot of the broken tower. And - to top it off - at the very same spot that Bran had fallen (taken wing) when pushed down by Jaime. GRRM also finds it necessary to remind us of this again in DwD, the Ghost of Winterfell chapter when Theon and Lady Dustin find the gargoyle staring up out of the snow, next to the entrance to the Crypts and we excplicitly get told again 'this is where they found Bran'. Bran also gets dreams of flying.

5) Shadow fire
The shadow fire is all over the place when the gargoyle falls down. That's because the whole of Winterfell is aflame (having been set on fire by Ramsay) and it is night! (See Summer's watching the fire from outside Winterfell at night). Thus the fire casts lots of shadows. This is additionally and explicitly made clear in the metaphorical winged firebreathing snake that Summer sees over Winterfell when the wall of the first keep  crashes down (and the gargoyle 'takes wing'.)

Edit: spelling

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 5:59 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

This on the other hand is perhaps one of the stupidest theories on this forum. And I feel bad saying that because I support many of the out their theories just because they are interesting and stimulate further conversation

It’s worth looking at. What if Rickard Stark was away from Winterfell. Would that make his son Brandon, lord Brandon? Lord Brandon from the bard song? Does Mance have silver hair he dyes brown? Does Mance fit the azor ahi prophecy? Is it a prophecy or a recipe? If it was foreseen, “Mance” was burnt alive yet still lives. Alive behind smoke and mirrors.

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

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2 hours ago, Amris said:

Look: you have a right to like your theory obviously. But some theories are more likely than others :P

No it's nothing to do with Bran.

Everything is literal and symbolic, the scene is Euron's literal ascension, the birth of the Stone Beast.

The tower is symbolic in the manner that throwing oneself from a tower is suicide (and particularly in the series second lifing), as Euron will be killing his mortal self to see if he can fly (ascend, second life a dragon). The literal tower will be the greatest of Westeros, Storm's End, as Euron is the first and last storm, the castle that stands in defiance of gods as Euron's death and rebirth as the Stone Beast is him becoming the new god to slay and seat himself above all others (the grief of gods - Godsgrief). The historic site of megastorms with one rather due.

The smoke will no doubt be literal but it's important symbolically as Euron has to blow his horn and follow Cragorn's fate, burning himself from within (though I think when Euron blows it it's going to be a bit more spectacular).

The stone is because Euron is going to get greyscale (A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly), and that's why the stone beast will be the stone beast. And as with JC, getting greyscale will be the final push to make Euron go all in (blow his horn, kill himself to try and ascend).

Shadow flame is false flame, the Stone Beast will be looked upon as a god and thought the answer to the Others, but being of Euron's blood it will not breathe fire like the true and proper weapon against the Others - a fire breathing dragon. And so the shadow flame is why the Stone Beast is a false savior, like the other two visions a lie that must be slayed.

Furthermore the "Great" is a moniker in homage to Cthulhu the Great (part man, dragon and Kraken, as the Great Stone Beast will be, aka sphinx) and you can see in other "Greats" of the series (eg Garin, Qarlon) the relationship to stone and water (for Euron's salt water Ironborn blood) in opposition to fire/Valyrians.

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10 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

It’s worth looking at. What if Rickard Stark was away from Winterfell. Would that make his son Brandon, lord Brandon? Lord Brandon from the bard song? Does Mance have silver hair he dyes brown? Does Mance fit the azor ahi prophecy? Is it a prophecy or a recipe? If it was foreseen, “Mance” was burnt alive yet still lives. Alive behind smoke and mirrors.

plenty of things are worth looking at and this theory is not one of them. if we need a bael the bard stand in for Lyanna Rhaegar is a better fit. if he abandoned his post in this early years far before he deserted, he would have had to travel leages to get to winterfell, and for what? a young girl he has not association with that has no reason to sleep with him. if he wanted a lay he would go to moles town or lay with a wildling. and there is no indication by mance that such a situation occurred, or that he ever met Lyanna, not even in passing. such an assumption if furthered by the fact that Benjen has no idea what Mance looks like because they have never met. Ben would still be a boy ay Lyanna's heel during the time your suggesting. maybe if it was mance who sung of bael the bard to Jon we could pick up on some foreshadowing, but it was ygrette to tells Jon that song to the purposes of saying were not so different you and I. And there is no real utility to such a parentage. it doesn't offer Jon anything in terms of legitimacy or growth, the title king beyond the wall is not hereditary, and Jon already pretty much has that despite. and where the hell is mance getting hair dye in the middle of the wilds? is he rubbing mud into his hair? and mance does not fit the aa prophecy. no bleeding star, no reborn, no awoken dragons.

 

Im willing to accept alt Jon parentage theories, just not this one.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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