The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[fionwe1987]

On 9/24/2021 at 7:54 PM, A True Kaniggit said:

I wouldn’t think so. When the Aiel found out about Min’s powers, they began treating her with great respect. 
 

She never once showed an inclination to join their society. 

Oh she didn't. I just thought we'd get an arc where she learns to like em, and decides to join them.

22 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Can we switch the fates of Cadsuane and Egwene please?  Something must have gotten mess up in RJ's notes.

I would love that, but I also get why she was the main character to go. RJ left a ton of clues behind, you know?

She has this Dream of Gawyn:

Quote

In the way of dreams she floated above a long straight road across a grassy plain, looking down upon a man riding a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her, this time, but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks…

- A Crown Of Swords, Unseen Eyes

There's the whole "Year of the Four Amyrlins" that Siuan brings up as a historical situation similar to the Tower split, and so on.

RJ did seed this, and I think he gave us his reason why:

Quote

Nisao twisted her pewter cup about on the tabletop, but she still did not look away. “It is my major reason. In the beginning, I thought she would end up as your pet. Or Lelaine’s. Later, when it was clear she had evaded both of you, I thought Siuan must be holding the leash, but I soon learned I was wrong. Siuan has been a teacher, I’m sure, and an advisor, and perhaps even a friend, but I’ve seen Egwene call her up short. No one has a leash on Egwene al’Vere. She is intelligent, observant, quick to learn and deft. She may become one of the great Amyrlins.” The bird-like sister gave a sudden, brief laugh. “Do you realize she will be the longest sitting Amyrlin in history? No one will ever live long enough to top her unless she chooses to step down early.”

- Knife of Dreams, Call to a Sitting

Egwene was just way too powerful, way too young. If RJ wanted to keep her alive, he'd have had to come up with some exit plan for her to not basically be ruling the world for the next 700 odd years.

[David Selig]

She wouldn't have been ruling the world anyway, the White Tower has too much competition for this to be possible post-Last Battle.

[A True Kaniggit]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

Egwene was just way too powerful, way too young. If RJ wanted to keep her alive, he'd have had to come up with some exit plan for her to not basically be ruling the world for the next 700 odd years.

The longevity of channelers is why they shouldn’t be queens or kings. I guess they would have to abdicate after 30-40 years so their heir could take over.

Or citizens end up being ruled by the same monarch their Great great great grandparents had. 

[fionwe1987]

8 hours ago, David Selig said:

She wouldn't have been ruling the world anyway, the White Tower has too much competition for this to be possible post-Last Battle.

Yes, but it's also in a position of way greater strength than ever before, and Egwene has the connections with Andor, the Aiel and the Two Rivers to give her a really strong starting position. She's not guaranteed to be a victor, but she'd have a very very good chance. And I don't think that made much sense as a place to leave the end of the books in.

One way or another, Rand and Egwene had to go. 

[ants]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:51 AM, Poobah said:

My headcannon re: the seanchan sequels is that Tuon would end up channelling instinctively after getting in some shit, and that'd lead to her ending the enslavement of channellers after some extra civil war and political action. IMO this is supported by the (unfulfilled) Legend mentioned in the companion and ToM glossary that "in a time of dire need, the Imperial family would return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."" which also notes that the creator of the a'dam was imprisoned there. IIRC the companion stuff (errors and all) is all from Jordan's notes? And it seems nicely circular that Tuon would end up channelling and probably be imprisoned there herself before learning the error of her ways.

I feel like Jordan was going somewhat in the direction of her learning from Mat (plus Setalle Anan) and showing that she was somewhat open-minded, just socialised / indoctrinated into the ways of her evil empire and had never had any of her beliefs questioned before. Sanderson didn't really develop that arc at all though and rather had her reset back to factory default as Fortuona, but assuming that Min was intended by Jordan to become a member of the imperial court (which does track, it seems very reasonable that the Seanchan "omens" are a warped legend of others with Min's talent) I think the double team of Min and Mat would've done well to carry some books and however whipped Mat gets around Tuon, Min doesn't take shit from anyone and wouldn't have put up with the evil ways the Seanchan treat channellers.

Simply having people point out that the sul'dam can all channel would cause enough ripples, given the way channelers are viewed. Add semi-enemy nations you're now sitting next to who are actively recruiting for both types post last battle (and those without the spark outnumber those who do), and there is suddenly a lot of issues with not reacting.

However, this does all imply that:

Spoiler

There is a possibility that Moghedien could be freed later if the Seanchan see the light. If the books had been written, that would have been quite the twist from doing the good deed! 

 

[fionwe1987]

So Tuon did agree to a fairly absurd deal with Egwene, based on her conviction that Damane want to be collared:

Spoiler

Per their agreement, Tuon will send emissaries to educate the non-Seanchan lands on the wonders of being damane, and any who wants to can cross into Seanchan lands and take up the collar. Egwene proposes that the opposite needs to be true too, any damane or woman who can channel in their lands can ask to go train with the Tower instead.

I really don't know if that was a Sanderson thing, or not. It's an absurd agreement that will crumble in like 5 minutes, most likely, when Tuon sees the fallout. If this was meant to be the resolution of the whole issue, it was pretty poorly done. 

[Mexal]

I'm getting confused. Are there 6 episodes or 8? I see 6 with names and some places saying there are 2 more? Timing seems to suggest 8 but I always thought 6.

[Corvinus85]

On 9/26/2021 at 9:29 AM, fionwe1987 said:

Egwene was just way too powerful, way too young. If RJ wanted to keep her alive, he'd have had to come up with some exit plan for her to not basically be ruling the world for the next 700 odd years.

But this is basically the same old White Tower political crap. Considering all the shit the world's gone through leading up the Last Battle, it would have been a highly optimistic and satisfying start of a new Age with a reform-minded Amyrlin in charge who would have ruled guided the world in a benevolent manner. The way AMoL ends, it strongly suggests the world may just go back to business as usual. I would've liked an aftermath chapter that dealt with a world that decided it was tired of war and was focused on rebuilding, and doing it better. And this would be reason enough for the Dragon Pact to hold.

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, Mexal said:

I'm getting confused. Are there 6 episodes or 8? I see 6 with names and some places saying there are 2 more? Timing seems to suggest 8 but I always thought 6.

Eight episodes.

Only the first six have been named, but oddly the first episode of Season 2 has as well.

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

But this is basically the same old White Tower political crap. Considering all the shit the world's gone through leading up the Last Battle, it would have been a highly optimistic and satisfying start of a new Age with a reform-minded Amyrlin in charge who would have ruled guided the world in a benevolent manner. The way AMoL ends, it strongly suggests the world may just go back to business as usual. I would've liked an aftermath chapter that dealt with a world that decided it was tired of war and was focused on rebuilding, and doing it better. And this would be reason enough for the Dragon Pact to hold.

Hmm I dunno. I definitely got the sense that Egwene did enough reforms that business as usual just wasn't gonna happen in the Tower. For one thing, about 70-80% of the Aes Sedai who were alive at the start of the series are dead. And they won't just be replaced quickly, but by overwhelming numbers, by the new women Egwene recruited, many of whom have families, husbands, kids... They just aren't going to be the brainwashed, out-of-touch with the real world losers that most of the Aes Sedai were.

Plus, she made it so most new trainees will eventually spend time with the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk, so they'll be exposed to other systems and ways of thinking. All in all, I don't see the Tower just going back to normal.

Of course if she'd survived she'd have been able to push for these a lot faster. But I think we get enough of a sense that she set things in motion that just won't be wished away by traditionalist sisters. 

[Lord Varys]

If anybody wants to read about my second attempt to get through the Wheel of Time I started a thread here:

 

[Scott_N]

This thread, and its predecessors, read a bit odd to the unititated (me) in that it seems like even those who are fans of the book series do not seemingly rate it very highly. Yet it has such a committed following.

PS. fionwe won the debate about whether the boy and girl were in a romantic relationship.

[fionwe1987]

7 hours ago, Scott_N said:

This thread, and its predecessors, read a bit odd to the unititated (me) in that it seems like even those who are fans of the book series do not seemingly rate it very highly. Yet it has such a committed following.

It is iconic, has some great moments and memorable characters, a solid plot that managed to hit the landing well enough despite the untimely death of the author. In the world of epic fantasy, at least, that's pretty good.

Some of the concepts are pretty dated, though, and a model of efficient storytelling this series is definitely not. 

7 hours ago, Scott_N said:

PS. fionwe won the debate about whether the boy and girl were in a romantic relationship.

[Rhom]

51 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is iconic, has some great moments and memorable characters, a solid plot that managed to hit the landing well enough despite the untimely death of the author. In the world of epic fantasy, at least, that's pretty good.

Some of the concepts are pretty dated, though, and a model of efficient storytelling this series is definitely not. 

I think those are very fair statements. 

[Inkdaub]

I am aware of it's flaws and I rate it very highly. 

[Starkess]

I love Wheel of Time. I think its fans sometimes feel obligated to be a bit self-deprecating about it--I mean just look at this very thread and someone calling anyone who likes it "childish" and merely holding onto nostalgia, as if somehow we're incapable of knowing our own minds and tastes. But they are some of my favorite books, I've read the entire series multiple times, and I doubt it will be surpassed as an epic fantasy series in my lifetime. So yeah, I rate it quite highly.

[Werthead]

15 hours ago, Scott_N said:

PS. fionwe won the debate about whether the boy and girl were in a romantic relationship.

I mean, it is inarguably canon by the text and by the word of the author and the interpretation of the overwhelming majority of tens of thousands of fans over a quarter of a century that they were not, so if you want to interpret that as "winning the debate," rock on. I think it's more of a case of "the argument being crushed with utter finality into such fine powder than continuing to argue the case is futility of the highest order." You'd find more evidence for the idea that the Moon is in reality a giant eggplant called Gerald.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I mean, it is inarguably canon by the text and by the word of the author and the interpretation of the overwhelming majority of tens of thousands of fans over a quarter of a century that they were not, so if you want to interpret that as "winning the debate," rock on. I think it's more of a case of "the argument being crushed with utter finality into such fine powder than continuing to argue the case is futility of the highest order." You'd find more evidence for the idea that the Moon is in reality a giant eggplant called Gerald.

I started my first ever reread of the series earlier this week, and it is obvious that they have never so much as held hands. Egwene talks shit to Rand the first time we meet her for not ever making his intentions clear regarding marriage/courtship and Rand's internal monologue specifically spells out that he's never thought of marrying her. 

Quote

He swallowed hard. Somehow, it had never occurred to him that she would reach marriageable age at the same time he did.

I don't want to crush someone's modernized interpretation of the material, but I really think if the writer wanted you to know that Rand and Egwene were more than friends he, uh, would have suggested it somewhere in the text.

You can choose to believe that Rand and Egwene had some romantic relationship where these types of considerations never came up, even in Rand's personal ruminations... But there's no just nothing to support that conclusion in the book. Live your own life though, y'know. 

I choose to believe that one day Winds of Winter will be released, so what do I know?

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I mean, it is inarguably canon by the text and by the word of the author and the interpretation of the overwhelming majority of tens of thousands of fans over a quarter of a century that they were not, so if you want to interpret that as "winning the debate," rock on. I think it's more of a case of "the argument being crushed with utter finality into such fine powder than continuing to argue the case is futility of the highest order." You'd find more evidence for the idea that the Moon is in reality a giant eggplant called Gerald.

Hello, Mr. Ego. It's funny that all these claims are never backed up by quotes. Kinda like you're covering for your lack of ability to prove your case.

40 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

I started my first ever reread of the series earlier this week, and it is obvious that they have never so much as held hands. Egwene talks shit to Rand the first time we meet her for not ever making his intentions clear regarding marriage/courtship and Rand's internal monologue specifically spells out that he's never thought of marrying her. 

I don't want to crush someone's modernized interpretation of the material, but I really think if the writer wanted you to know that Rand and Egwene were more than friends he, uh, would have suggested it somewhere in the text.

You can choose to believe that Rand and Egwene had some romantic relationship where these types of considerations never came up, even in Rand's personal ruminations... But there's no just nothing to support that conclusion in the book. Live your own life though, y'know. 

I choose to believe that one day Winds of Winter will be released, so what do I know?

So the declarations of love are, what? Fake?

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hello, Mr. Ego. It's funny that all these claims are never backed up by quotes. Kinda like you're covering for your lack of ability to prove your case.

So the declarations of love are, what? Fake?

Probably based on stuff that's actually depicted in the story. That they were friends growing up and everyone always kinda assumed they'd get together ( which means married) some day but that once the outside world came calling both of them realized they would never actually get together. That's a close kind of personal relationship, but it is not based on romantic companionship. Quite the opposite in fact.

I mean, that's just what happens in the story.