The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Mexal]

3 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

Probably based on stuff that's actually depicted in the story. That they were friends growing up and everyone always kinda assumed they'd get together ( which means married) some day but that once the outside world came calling both of them realized they would never actually get together. That's a close kind of personal relationship, but it is not based on romantic companionship. Quite the opposite in fact.

I mean, that's just what happens in the story. 

I’m on book 3 of my reread over the past two months and this is my interpretation as well. Never thought they did anything romantic or sexual. Rand was clearly intimidated by her and everyone’s expectations of what they would be. Did he care for her and her him? Absolutely. Had they ever done anything about that? Not that I read or believed.

[Starkess]

Count me another who took them as not actually in a relationship. Rand definitely has a crush on Egwene, and everyone assumes they're going to get together, but that's not a relationship.

Also you don't have to be in a relationship to love someone.

[fionwe1987]

Once again, the Companion, which is from RJ's notes for the characters, says Egwene and Rand were sweethearts. That is defined as someone you're in a romantic relationship with. 

You can scream they weren't in a romantically relationship till you're blue in the face. The author says they were. Plenty of people can read in the books that they were. They declare their love for each other directly at multiple points. It's absurd that this discussion is continuing beyond this point. At best, you can try to argue RJ didn't write his intent clearly enough.  But his intent is clear from his notes. 

[A True Kaniggit]

13 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Once again, the Companion, which is from RJ's notes for the characters, says Egwene and Rand were sweethearts. That is defined as someone you're in a romantic relationship with. 

You can scream they weren't in a romantically relationship till you're blue in the face. The author says they were. Plenty of people can read in the books that they were. They declare their love for each other directly at multiple points. It's absurd that this discussion is continuing beyond this point. At best, you can try to argue RJ didn't write his intent clearly enough.  But his intent is clear from his notes. 

I don’t remember this at all. In what books did they tell each other, “I love you” or “I am in love with you”?

Was it in The Great Hunt, before Egwene left for Tar Valon?

Though starting in book 4 they do admit to loving each other as brother/sister. 

[fionwe1987]

11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don’t remember this at all. In what books did they tell each other, “I love you” or “I am in love with you”?

Was it in The Great Hunt, before Egwene left for Tar Valon?

Yep. I had the quote in the previous thread. 

11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Though starting in book 4 they do admit to loving each other as brother/sister. 

Yes, and that this is different from before.

[Werthead]

18 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hello, Mr. Ego. It's funny that all these claims are never backed up by quotes. Kinda like you're covering for your lack of ability to prove your case.

Weirdly the quotes do not exist to prove something that never happened. It's like saying because at no point in the books does Robert Jordan say that Rand al'Thor is not a duck, there is therefore textual evidence that he is a duck. As pointed out before, the quotes you half cherry-picked to support your..."argument" is too generous a word...actually shot down the idea in themselves, merely re-confirming the author's intent: everyone kind of assumed that Rand and Egwene would hook up, their parents had discussed it and were happy with it, but nothing had happened between them. Rand had not declared his intentions and a key subplot in EotW (especially the start) is that Egwene is annoyed with him for not making his mind up if he wants to be in a relationship with her, never minding the fact that Egwene herself is clearly not that keen on it (and pretty much drops the idea the instant any other option is put before her).

Rand and Egwene were not in a romantic relationship before the books began. Period.

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Once again, the Companion, which is from RJ's notes for the characters, says Egwene and Rand were sweethearts. That is defined as someone you're in a romantic relationship with. 

That's not in the notes, which does not define their relationship as such. The Companion is Harriet, Maria and Alan's summary/interpretation of the notes, and that is definitely something that was a bit questionable, unless the intent was to say that the people of the Two Rivers assumed that Rand and Egwene were going to be married one day but not they were actually dating.

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Plenty of people can read in the books that they were

As someone who's read multiple fansites and interviews with RJ since 1998, moderated Dragonmount for over a dozen years, actually read the raw notes themselves (although sadly not the Book 12 notes, which were redacted from the collection) and sat on panels with Harriet, I can confirm that this is the first time in all that time I've encountered anyone who's even tried to argue they were in a serious relationship. It is pure fantasy.

[Rippounet]

The books were always very ambiguous as to Rand and Egwene's exact relationship status, but I think it's quite clear they never had sex.

Which was, IIRC, the initial question, i.e. whether the show changed this or not. Not that it matters.

[williamjm]

43 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's like saying because at no point in the books does Robert Jordan say that Rand al'Thor is not a duck, there is therefore textual evidence that he is a duck.

Maybe 'The Dragon Reborn' is a mistranslation and he's really 'The Duck Reborn'?

[fionwe1987]

44 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Weirdly the quotes do not exist to prove something that never happened. It's like saying because at no point in the books does Robert Jordan say that Rand al'Thor is not a duck, there is therefore textual evidence that he is a duck. As pointed out before, the quotes you half cherry-picked to support your..."argument" is too generous a word...actually shot down the idea in themselves, merely re-confirming the author's intent: everyone kind of assumed that Rand and Egwene would hook up, their parents had discussed it and were happy with it, but nothing had happened between them. Rand had not declared his intentions and a key subplot in EotW (especially the start) is that Egwene is annoyed with him for not making his mind up if he wants to be in a relationship with her, never minding the fact that Egwene herself is clearly not that keen on it (and pretty much drops the idea the instant any other option is put before her).

Rand and Egwene were not in a romantic relationship before the books began. Period.

That's not in the notes, which does not define their relationship as such. The Companion is Harriet, Maria and Alan's summary/interpretation of the notes, and that is definitely something that was a bit questionable, unless the intent was to say that the people of the Two Rivers assumed that Rand and Egwene were going to be married one day but not they were actually dating.

As someone who's read multiple fansites and interviews with RJ since 1998, moderated Dragonmount for over a dozen years, actually read the raw notes themselves (although sadly not the Book 12 notes, which were redacted from the collection) and sat on panels with Harriet, I can confirm that this is the first time in all that time I've encountered anyone who's even tried to argue they were in a serious relationship. It is pure fantasy.

You keep throwing up credentials but ignore or re-interpret direct evidence to still hold to your position. It's amusing, really, "look at me, I'm the big WoT expert, but I can't prove what I'm claiming so I'm just going to keep repeating what a great big expert I am".

As for the absurd absence of evidence argument here, that's a nice shifting of the goalposts. In your previous post you said "it is inarguably canon by the text and by the word of the author and the interpretation of the overwhelming majority of tens of thousands of fans over a quarter of a century that they were not"

 

So where is this "word of the author" you claimed? The one we have, from the Companion, you dismiss without evidence as interpretation by RJ's editor and writing assistants. Interesting that their interpretation matches mine, no? Wonder why that is...

But you directly claimed RJ had said otherwise? Where? It's not even like RJ's interviewed aren't collected in a nice searchable database. Should be easy enough to find that quote, that word of the author, that says they are not in a relationship, right? If not, kindly take your boasting and stuff it somewhere where it might be useful. We work of actual text and evidence, here, to convince each other, not egotistical chest thumping to desperately cover up the fact that the evidence isn't backing up our assumptions. 

[A True Kaniggit]

3 hours ago, williamjm said:

Maybe 'The Dragon Reborn' is a transliteration and he's really 'The Duck Reborn'?

Space Duck Reborn.

 

Quack!

[Lord Varys]

Dealing with TEotW right now, I can definitely say the idea that Rand and Egwene had a 'relationship' before they left Emmond's Field is nonsense. Rand was sort of infatuated with Egwene - but even that's not really clear. He doesn't really know what he feels for her. There is an expectation that they might marry one day, but since the Two Rivers folk do not actually arrange marriages, nothing is clear there. Think how the women tried and failed to set up Tam with a new wife. It is quite clear, that actual love is a prerequisite for marriage in Emmond's Field, and since neither Rand nor Egwene are actually in love with each other or have proclaimed their love for the other (publicly) they were neither in a romantic relationship nor betrothed to marry one day.

Of course they danced in the past and they were close friends, but they were never in love, were never together, never promised to marry each other, never had sex, etc.

[Poobah]

Personally I'd say that by the standards of the time it's obvious to me that they were in a relationship, everyone in town knew and assumed that they'd marry and in the normal course of things it's clear they would've - we even see that in What Might Be in TGH (one of my favourite chapters of WoT, such an interesting and memorable sequence). The Two Rivers is extremely puritanical even by the standards of the setting it's in (I mean see how damaged Perrin is, and how slutshamed Mat gets for kissing a few barmaids) so I agree that their relationship as written was absolutely not sexual, but Egwene was dancing with Rand (and only Rand) and so on, they were pretty locked in with eachother in that very old times kinda way - there was courtship happening there. Also in Eye of the World we get some jealousy between them over Egwene dancing with the tinker whose name I forget and Elsie Grinwell being all over Rand while they were split up. I'd even suggest that they probably kissed given that Rand doesn't, for instance, think about how Elayne is the first girl he ever kissed or anything like that and, looking up the scene in TSR, doesn't exactly kiss like a first timer either. Actually the scene before that where Egwene formally breaks up with Rand is probably a pretty good piece of evidence that there was something there originally:

"I do not love you! At least, not in the way to want to marry you [...] People change, Rand. Feelings change. When people are apart, sometimes they grow apart. I love you as I would a brother, perhaps more than a brother."

She doesn't say "I never loved you" or "I never wanted to marry you" but rather that her feelings have changed y'know from something that they were before.

[Gertrude]

16 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

You can scream they weren't in a romantically relationship till you're blue in the face. The author says they were. 

Then that's a problem with execution, isn't it? (which is my main complaint about the series as a whole even though I like the story)

Count me in too as someone who accepted that they had an understanding, but maybe it didn't go any further than dancing or possibly a fairly innocent kiss and canoodle, but that's me filling in the details of what a somewhat innocent young relationship might look like. It's not like the book didn't talk about other Two Rivers relationships - I remember a story about a young couple caught in a hayloft, so they may be prudish, but they're still human. The book just never talked about Rand and Egwene that way, or even really hinted at a physical relationship of any kind.

I've had purely platonic friendships with guys that I mistook for romantic feelings because it was a friendship I felt very deeply, more so than my other friends. I have one specific relationship that other good friends had to ask us about to clarify if we were a couple or not. I absolutely love him with all my heart, but not romantically. This is also a completely valid way to interpret Rand and Egwene's relationship according to the books as written.

Having said that - bring on the show changes! Woo Hoo! Naked Rand and Egwene!

[Myrddin]

As break from the debates: I finally got my 13 year old son to start reading EotW. He's only on chapter 8, but I asked him who his favorite character was.

"Egwene. And idk why but I feel like she's gonna be hot in the show."

I sent him a photo of the actress and confirmed his guess.

Ah, the teenage demographics....

[Jace, Extat]

3 hours ago, Myrddin said:

As break from the debates: I finally got my 13 year old son to start reading EotW. He's only on chapter 8, but I asked him who his favorite character was.

"Egwene. And idk why but I feel like she's gonna be hot in the show."

I sent him a photo of the actress and confirmed his guess.

Ah, the teenage demographics....

You got a kid to read? A book???

You're the adult of the fucking year.

[Myrddin]

40 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

You got a kid to read? A book???

You're the adult of the fucking year.

I've been trying to get him to read this for years.... His English class this year let them pick a book. I even had to show that EotW had been published in two parts to get it qualified as under 400 pages. So, yeah, he's reading a (half) book for class. Let's see if he reads past chapter 23 (the end of "Part One"). THEN I'll claim some parenting credit.

[fionwe1987]

16 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Then that's a problem with execution, isn't it? (which is my main complaint about the series as a whole even though I like the story)

Yes, but in this case, there also seems to be a weird imposition of modern Western relationship convention to a prudish backwater village that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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Count me in too as someone who accepted that they had an understanding, but maybe it didn't go any further than dancing or possibly a fairly innocent kiss and canoodle, but that's me filling in the details of what a somewhat innocent young relationship might look like. It's not like the book didn't talk about other Two Rivers relationships - I remember a story about a young couple caught in a hayloft, so they may be prudish, but they're still human. The book just never talked about Rand and Egwene that way, or even really hinted at a physical relationship of any kind.

But the physical relationship isn't the question. The question is were they romantically involved. And those are separate questions, however weird that may seem by modern standards. 

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I've had purely platonic friendships with guys that I mistook for romantic feelings because it was a friendship I felt very deeply, more so than my other friends. I have one specific relationship that other good friends had to ask us about to clarify if we were a couple or not. I absolutely love him with all my heart, but not romantically. This is also a completely valid way to interpret Rand and Egwene's relationship according to the books as written.

Did you declare that you loved this friend to him directly? Did you spend years thinking you'd marry him? Because despite everyone claiming it's the people of the Two Rivers who assumed they'd marry, their thoughts reveal they both thought that as well, for a big chunk of their lives. To make things clearer, RJ wrote a whole other prologue for Eye of the World, written from a 9 year old Egwene's perspective, showing her obsessed with Rand already. The whole story is a running gag of Egwene being shocked everyone seems to think she'll marry Rand, and not wanting to be one of the girls obsessed with guys, but she wants to find Rand and see what he's up to. It's pretty clear the reason everyone thinks they'll marry is because they're constantly doing stuff like this.

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Having said that - bring on the show changes! Woo Hoo! Naked Rand and Egwene!

Yeah I'm all for changes too. But the bones of it aren't really challenging the books. Rand and Egwene were in a relationship. We don't get evidence one way or another about if they had a sexual relationship, but we do know it's something that happened in the Two Rivers, and when it did, you did it discreetly for fear of the consequences of the adults finding out. And neither Rand nor Egwene is shown to be particularly unsure of themselves when they first kiss the Trakand siblings, so they've been kissing somebody in the Two Rivers, at least, and given the evidence that everyone assumes they'll marry, I have a hard time believing they were kissing other people and that didn't become a matter of gossip.

So the part about physical intimacy is inference. But that they thought they were in love isn't. It's directly in the books. 

9 hours ago, Myrddin said:

As break from the debates: I finally got my 13 year old son to start reading EotW. He's only on chapter 8, but I asked him who his favorite character was.

"Egwene. And idk why but I feel like she's gonna be hot in the show."

I sent him a photo of the actress and confirmed his guess.

Ah, the teenage demographics....

I wonder how differently the female characters are going to be received now. I found Egwene the most fascinating early on, too, because she didn't seem to be following the playbook of the "main protagonist's girlfriend" character in other such books. Not having them end up together is one of RJ's better decisions. It makes sense to me their ambitions and goals made them realize they're not for each other. 

 

 

[Gertrude]

34 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Did you declare that you loved this friend to him directly?

Yeah, of course.

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id you spend years thinking you'd marry him? 

The first time I felt more than simple friendship for a guy I did think it was a romantic feeling. It wasn't, but I had a bond with him that was stronger than most of my other friendships and thought it must be love. The first kiss was enough for me to realize that no, that's not what I'm feeling. So I can absolutely see Egwene and Rand doing the same.

Everything is filtered through our own experiences, and in my experience, it's perfectly logical that Rand and Egwene mistook friendship for romantic love and didn't have the experience or options to realize otherwise. I don't know if RJ meant for that to be the case or not (because execution).

And pulling in 9 year old Egwene doesn't really hold weight. It might be canon, but I never read it because it wasn't part of the story at the time. I also decided to become a veterinarian when I was young and never reevaluated that decision until I was two years into college science classes. When I made that decision, it became a part of me I was unwilling to give up. I eventually kicked it all over and went into the arts. So again - personal experience will effect people's perceptions, won't they?

[fionwe1987]

43 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, of course.

The first time I felt more than simple friendship for a guy I did think it was a romantic feeling. It wasn't, but I had a bond with him that was stronger than most of my other friendships and thought it must be love. The first kiss was enough for me to realize that no, that's not what I'm feeling. So I can absolutely see Egwene and Rand doing the same.

Everything is filtered through our own experiences, and in my experience, it's perfectly logical that Rand and Egwene mistook friendship for romantic love and didn't have the experience or options to realize otherwise. I don't know if RJ meant for that to be the case or not (because execution).

And pulling in 9 year old Egwene doesn't really hold weight. It might be canon, but I never read it because it wasn't part of the story at the time. I also decided to become a veterinarian when I was young and never reevaluated that decision until I was two years into college science classes. When I made that decision, it became a part of me I was unwilling to give up. I eventually kicked it all over and went into the arts. So again - personal experience will effect people's perceptions, won't they?

But this seems to assume that the definition of a romantic relationship is one that continues to carry on and ends up in marriage. 

If Egwene and Rand personally reassess their past and say "what we thought was love was only friendship" that's totally fine. But barring a direct statement like that from them, all we know is they were in love and then fell out of it. Which happens all the time. Doesn't mean that you can ignore that there was a time they were in love, though. They certainly don't, and nor do their friends. Elayne is literally worried about whether Rand will hold on to Egwene, immediately after they formally break up, and she's coming to this worry as Egwene's closest friend in the Tower, and co-conspirator in their plan to have her ask him out right after the breakup.

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There was something she had to know before she could go on. “Did it hurt you very much?” That could be taken two ways, she realized. “What Egwene told you, I mean.”

“No. Yes. Some. I don’t know. Fair is fair, after all.” His small grin took some of the edge off of his wariness. “I sound a fool again, don’t I?”

“No. Not to me.”

“I told her the pure truth, but I don’t think she believed me. I suppose I did not want to believe it of her, either. Not really. If that isn’t foolish, I don’t know what is.”

“If you tell me one more time that you are a fool, I may begin to believe it.” He won’t try to hold on to her; I won’t have to deal with that .

This is one of the first times she is alone with him, so she only has what Egwene has said to go by, and maybe Nynaeve and Min. So she's definitely assuming they're in a relationship, and it would be weird as fuck for Egwene to not correct that, no, especially given the context of this meeting? Also, if they were never in anything like a romantic relationship, why is Egwene feeling any obligation to formally break up, or worry that Rand would be hurt, as she clearly believes is the case?

And as Rand says, she just doesn't believe he wouldn't be hurt, and has to work to convince herself it's a good thing he took the breakup well: 

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The time had come to bring up her second reason for being there, but it was even more difficult than she had expected. This was going to hurt him; those sad, wary eyes convinced her it would. But it had to be done. She snugged the scarf around her; it enveloped her from shoulders to waist. “Rand, I cannot marry you.”

“I know,” he said. She blinked. He was not taking it as hard as she expected. She told herself that was good. “I do not mean to hurt you—really, I don’t—but I do not want to marry you.”

And then there's the content of her explanation, which Poobah quoted. Who speaks of feelings changing and growing apart because of spending time apart, if they've realized there was nothing romantic in the past, or there really was nothing romantic in the first place? It's not like they were actually promised to each other, so there's no formal expectation of marriage, only what they know of each other and their history. 

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“Please try to understand,” she said in a gentler voice. “People change, Rand. Feelings change. When people are apart, sometimes they grow apart. I love you as I would a brother, perhaps more than a brother, but not to marry. Can you understand that?”

He managed a rueful grin. “I really am a fool. I didn’t really believe you might change, too. Egwene, I do not want to marry you, either. I did not want to change, I didn’t try to, but it happened. If you knew how much this means to me. Not having to pretend. Not being afraid I’ll hurt you. I never wanted to do that, Egwene. Never to hurt you.”

She very nearly smiled. He was putting on such a brave face; he was actually quite close to convincing. “I am glad you are taking it so well,” she told him in a soft voice. “I did not want to hurt you, either. And now I really must go.” Rising from her chair, she bent to brush a kiss across his cheek. “You will find someone else.”

This entire scene makes zero sense to me if they had no romantic feelings for each other, and there was only a passive expectation of marriage because everyone expected they would marry. If they each thought the other was in love, and they'd never been in love at all, their words about changing don't make any sense.

I suppose you could claim they're both lying to each other, but their thoughts around this scene indicate no kind of subterfuge about these feelings. 

So if we're to buy they weren't ever in a romantic relationship, can someone explain what the heck they think is going on in this breakup scene?

[Gertrude]

You won't convince me how I feel about what I read. Dude, you don't have to defend every word in the book. I know you don't literally do that, but sometimes it seems like it.