fionwe1987 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Gertrude said: You won't convince me how I feel about what I read. Dude, you don't have to defend every word in the book. I know you don't literally do that, but sometimes it seems like it. Hmm I don't know if this counts as a defense, more a frustrated confusion at the insistence that it is "obvious" they weren't in a relationship. I know that's less you than others in this thread, but it's very gas-lighty to have an interpretation insisted upon as truth with zero evidence to back it up, and actual contradictory evidence straight up ignored. If your position is, I don't care about discussing this in a factual basis, my interpretation based on my perspective is supreme, that's fine. But that's different from insisting nothing in the books supports that they were a couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 The latest promo pics are yet another pretty clear indication that Rand and Egwene's romantic relationship will be a lot more obvious in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, David Selig said: The latest promo pics are yet another pretty clear indication that Rand and Egwene's romantic relationship will be a lot more obvious in the show. More importantly I assume that is Mandarb Rand is holding onto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 52 minutes ago, David Selig said: The latest promo pics are yet another pretty clear indication that Rand and Egwene's romantic relationship will be a lot more obvious in the show. Probably for the best, since this thread is proof positive that to a lot of people, if you aren't regularly boinking, you can't be in a relationship. Might as well eliminate that avenue of doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 6:16 PM, fionwe1987 said: You keep throwing up credentials but ignore or re-interpret direct evidence to still hold to your position. It's amusing, really, "look at me, I'm the big WoT expert, but I can't prove what I'm claiming so I'm just going to keep repeating what a great big expert I am". I like the fact that you ignore the point that the interpretation that Rand and Egwene were in a romantic relationship pre-EotW is something so narrow that topics like "were the Ogier space aliens?" and "maybe Aviendha really killed Asmodean and then lied about it, like Aiel do all the time?" were more commonly-discussed ideas at the very height of the fandom. Look, I understand you've developed a cute little piece of fringe fanon here which you are clinging to like a drowning man to a raft with major holes in it, but even you must admit your theory has a slight problem when a primary plot thread of the first book - Egwene is pissed off because Rand effectively won't ask her out despite everyone assuming he will - depends on them not being in a pre-existing relationship. Otherwise...what's the problem? They're in a relationship, they can assume they're going to marry, and she doesn't need to be considering alternate career paths. The fact that she is training to be a Wisdom hinges on her not being in a full-time relationship with anyone (well, some Wisdoms marry and have kids, but Egwene seems to be assuming that she'll follow in Nynaeve's footsteps by not and dedicating herself to the work) as well. Egwene and Rand not being in a relationship is the key fact that establishes their relationship, characterisation and character arcs at the start of the book. Them being in a relationship would make that completely different, which is what the TV show (working on the premise that we're picking up on the characters in the situation where EotW starts maybe 3-5 years later than it did in the books, by which time Rand and Egwene would have indeed likely hooked up anyway) is going for. I'll ignore your personal attacks (on a moderator; interesting stratagem) as frustration that you cannot articulate your argument with anything remotely approaching factual evidence. This time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 56 minutes ago, Werthead said: I like the fact that you ignore the point that the interpretation that Rand and Egwene were in a romantic relationship pre-EotW is something so narrow that topics like "were the Ogier space aliens?" and "maybe Aviendha really killed Asmodean and then lied about it, like Aiel do all the time?" were more commonly-discussed ideas at the very height of the fandom. Or it was so blindingly obvious no one needed to discuss this as a "theory". 56 minutes ago, Werthead said: Look, I understand you've developed a cute little piece of fringe fanon here which you are clinging to like a drowning man to a raft with major holes in it, but even you must admit your theory has a slight problem when a primary plot thread of the first book - Egwene is pissed off because Rand effectively won't ask her out despite everyone assuming he will - depends on them not being in a pre-existing relationship. Otherwise...what's the problem? They're in a relationship, they can assume they're going to marry, and she doesn't need to be considering alternate career paths. The fact that she is training to be a Wisdom hinges on her not being in a full-time relationship with anyone (well, some Wisdoms marry and have kids, but Egwene seems to be assuming that she'll follow in Nynaeve's footsteps by not and dedicating herself to the work) as well. Egwene and Rand not being in a relationship is the key fact that establishes their relationship, characterisation and character arcs at the start of the book. Them being in a relationship would make that completely different, which is what the TV show (working on the premise that we're picking up on the characters in the situation where EotW starts maybe 3-5 years later than it did in the books, by which time Rand and Egwene would have indeed likely hooked up anyway) is going for. Egwene is pissed off because Rand won't ask her out? He asks her to dance, she says she would in the afternoon, but that she's busy in the morning, so maybe you may want to read the relevant chapter again? With regard to marriage, here's what goes down: Quote He stared at that braid as if it were a viper, then stole a glance at the Spring Pole, standing alone on the Green now, ready for tomorrow. In the morning unmarried women of marriageable age would dance the Pole. He swallowed hard. Somehow, it had never occurred to him that she would reach marriageable age at the same time that he did. “Just because someone is old enough to marry,” he muttered, “doesn’t mean they should. Not right away.” “Of course not. Or ever, for that matter.” Rand blinked. “Ever?” “A Wisdom almost never marries. Nynaeve has been teaching me, you know. She says I have a talent, that I can learn to listen to the wind. Nynaeve says not all Wisdoms can, even if they say they do.” “Wisdom!” he hooted. He failed to notice the dangerous glint in her eye. “Nynaeve will be Wisdom here for another fifty years at least. Probably more. Are you going to spend the rest of your life as her apprentice?” “There are other villages,” she replied heatedly. “Nynaeve says the villages north of the Taren always choose a Wisdom from away. They think it stops her from having favorites among the village folk.” His amusement melted as fast as it had come. “Outside the Two Rivers? I’d never see you again.” “And you wouldn’t like that? You have not given any sign lately that you’d care one way or another.” Rand is the one who is unable to fathom that Egwene may not want to marry him, ever. If Egwene and Rand aren't in a relationship, why does she even say that he hasn't "lately" given any sign that he'd miss her? Lately compared to what, exactly? If he's never shown signs he wants to be with her, why's he worried he'd never see her? 56 minutes ago, Werthead said: I'll ignore your personal attacks (on a moderator; interesting stratagem) as frustration that you cannot articulate your argument with anything remotely approaching factual evidence. This time. Is there a board rule that moderators can personally attack posters, then try to threaten them into silence because a discussion isn't going to their liking? Go ahead and ban me then, that kind of intellectual dishonesty is frankly disgusting. Didn't realize that's how you like to handle a debate, though I guess I should have seen it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quijote Light Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 7, 2021 Author Share Posted October 7, 2021 When I read the series my impression was that the folks of the Two Rivers (like many characters written in Wheel of Time) were so suffocatingly Puritanical that maintaining eye contact for a beat longer than average effectively made you a couple. Just inputting my token for the voting lot. Mostly I'm intrigued but largely confused why something like this would be such a hot topic. There's a lot of room for personal interpretation, and it seems like such a trivial part of the series. But fascinating to see the rising stakes in what began as such an inconsequential discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 10/5/2021 at 4:41 AM, fionwe1987 said: Hmm I don't know if this counts as a defense, more a frustrated confusion at the insistence that it is "obvious" they weren't in a relationship. I know that's less you than others in this thread, but it's very gas-lighty to have an interpretation insisted upon as truth with zero evidence to back it up, and actual contradictory evidence straight up ignored. If your position is, I don't care about discussing this in a factual basis, my interpretation based on my perspective is supreme, that's fine. But that's different from insisting nothing in the books supports that they were a couple. My point is that Rand and Egwene didn't have any romantic chemistry demonstrated in the book. The author can say they they were in a romantic relationship all he wants, you can quote things that make it obvious they and others expected to be in a romantic relationship in the future, but nothing was written that makes it feel like they had any actual romantic thoughts in the present. They had no chemistry, no more than any other pair of good friends. There. Is. No. Chemistry. I accept that they had strong feelings towards each other, and they may have taken that to be a romantic love, but there is nothing demonstrated that shows they actually HAD a romantic relationship, and I'm not just talking about the physical part. You're being a jerk. You're coming from a vantage point of you having the superior understanding of the book and we plebes just don't get it. The rest of us just don't see the brilliance of can-do-no-wrong Jordan. This is exactly why I always qualify my fandom for the Wheel of Time. It's a good story, but it's flawed, and certainly not genius. If you dare to say that, the defenders come out in full force. I think I'd better not respond to you about the book anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Slurktan said: More importantly I assume that is Mandarb Rand is holding onto. And is the other the Creator? I like Lan's sword, nice inscriptions, but no true blademaster would ever rest his sword on his shoulder like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 8 hours ago, Slurktan said: More importantly I assume that is Mandarb Rand is holding onto. That horse looks way too fine and well groomed for the Two Rivers so that seems likely. Look at that fringe. 2 hours ago, Gertrude said: They had no chemistry, no more than any other pair of good friends. There. Is. No. Chemistry. I think it's pretty clear that this argument is going nowhere, so I think this point from Gertrude is probably a good one to leave things on. Even if you personally disagree, the lack of chemistry between them is something a lot of readers perceive and ultimately is canonical and one of the drivers of them going different directions. This is clearly something that's an explicit change for the show, just the snippets of promo shots we have already show them looking comfortable with casual physical intimacy and I don't mean sex here, that shot of them nude might well be a bath house, but they're clearly comfortable regardless of the context. The shot of Rand lighting up and looking like a puppy when she enters the Inn. And now this one of them clearly kissing. The actors having chemistry and the relationship being explicit, real and good just makes it more meaningful when they grow apart and separate. The audience can get a sense of loss for what could have been rather than it being more abstract and theoretical. It's a change and a good one imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said: And is the other the Creator? I like Lan's sword, nice inscriptions, but no true blademaster would ever rest his sword on his shoulder like that. It’s the Pigeon Shits on the Shoulder stance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 8 hours ago, karaddin said: That horse looks way too fine and well groomed for the Two Rivers so that seems likely. Look at that fringe. I think it's pretty clear that this argument is going nowhere, so I think this point from Gertrude is probably a good one to leave things on. Even if you personally disagree, the lack of chemistry between them is something a lot of readers perceive and ultimately is canonical and one of the drivers of them going different directions. This is clearly something that's an explicit change for the show, just the snippets of promo shots we have already show them looking comfortable with casual physical intimacy and I don't mean sex here, that shot of them nude might well be a bath house, but they're clearly comfortable regardless of the context. The shot of Rand lighting up and looking like a puppy when she enters the Inn. And now this one of them clearly kissing. The actors having chemistry and the relationship being explicit, real and good just makes it more meaningful when they grow apart and separate. The audience can get a sense of loss for what could have been rather than it being more abstract and theoretical. It's a change and a good one imo. Yes, the increased physical interaction and the gazing into each other's eyes, etc is a clear break from the books. And while I think that's a good call, I'd be interested to see how they handle the breakup. RJ set up growing distance between them very early. And then took considerable pains to show that while Egwene wasn't unaffected by Rand being able to channel, that isn't the determining factor in her decision to break up with him, nor is that the main reason Rand concludes he can't be with Egwene. In the show, without access to their thoughts, if the main even that causes them to break up is Rand starting to channel, that's going to play very differently. They have plenty of opportunity to have them be on the outs from when Egwene learns she's going to be Aes Sedai, though. Rand doesn't react to that well, in the books, and a lot of the ways he shows that are pretty easy to translate to screen, so they'll hopefully preserve that and expand on it in the show. I'm also interested to see if they will up the chemistry and attraction between Thom and Moiraine. It just doesn't work, in the books. Honestly, having Moiraine end up with Siuan is so much more preferable, but I don't know if they'll go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 Apparently there'll be a trailer or teaser released tomorrow to coincide with the WoT panel at NYCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 They released a new poster: That looks pretty dreadful, I must say. Like a cheap, crappy horror novel cover. Let's hope the trailer tomorrow is much much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said: I'm also interested to see if they will up the chemistry and attraction between Thom and Moiraine. It just doesn't work, in the books. Honestly, having Moiraine end up with Siuan is so much more preferable, but I don't know if they'll go there. Hey! We agree! But honestly, I'd be fine with them just dropping Moiraine/Thom completely, even if they don't do Moiriane/Siuan. Neither Moiraine/Thom or Siuan/Bryne added anything to the story for me personally. They were means to an end (Moiraine's rescue and Bryne with the Little Tower) and I think how those things happen could be set up differently with little consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 10/6/2021 at 5:36 PM, fionwe1987 said: if you aren't regularly boinking, you can't be in a relationship. Damn… and for the last decade I just thought that meant you were married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Gertrude said: Hey! We agree! I thought we weren't discussing the books? We should continue keeping it that way, I think. 2 hours ago, Rhom said: Damn… and for the last decade I just thought that meant you were married. That's the "should have divorced years ago" marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Dayum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Gertrude said: Hey! We agree! But honestly, I'd be fine with them just dropping Moiraine/Thom completely, even if they don't do Moiriane/Siuan. Neither Moiraine/Thom or Siuan/Bryne added anything to the story for me personally. They were means to an end (Moiraine's rescue and Bryne with the Little Tower) and I think how those things happen could be set up differently with little consequence. 100% agreed. Its not like romance is the only reason to go rescue Moiraine, Matt isn't harbouring a secret crush there and trying to cut in on Thom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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