The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Corvinus85]

The closest contemporary royal is Kiruna, right, the sister of the king of Arafel? But her brother has children, so she wouldn't be that close in the line of succession?

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

So no ruler was ever openly Aes Sedai? Apparently there were a few hidden ones. But not for at least a thousand years. 
 

Yeah. It just doesn’t seem right. 

I think Moiraine has the better understanding. Most who have been openly Aes Sedai have come to a bad end. Doesn't mean it can't succeed. Mabriam en Shereed is a legendary Gray sister who was openly Aes Sedai, and she created the Compact of Ten Nations. Meaning she was internationally known and respected. As Aes Sedai. 

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Yeah, that's the quote. And Elayne confirms it in her PoV in Book 10:

Her information is probably based on what Elaida told her in the earlier quote. If I were in Elayne's situation I'd have definitely done my own research on this topic right after I went to the Tower, but there is no indications in the book this has happened. Unlike Moiraine she was never worried about being accepted as an Aes Sedai queen. And speaking of Moiraine, her thoughts on this topic in New Spring contradict Elaida's:

 

Yeah I'd been looking for that Moiraine quote. Because the Tower couldn't possibly have hoped to keep it secret she was Aes Sedai. Yes, plenty of Nobles train at the Tower, but that Moiraine was both a Novice and Accepted were hardly a secret, and neither was the fact that she was raised a Sister. The Hall clearly saw no problems in installing her as Queen, and while she is far from week, she's definitely weaker enough than Elayne that Elaida's statement saying Elayne was strong enough to survive being openly Aes Sedai makes no sense.

If the Hall thought Moiraine was strong enough, then plenty of Nobles in that strength range exist, and many more Aes Sedai would openly rule. Kiruna herself is just a step below Moiraine in strength, after all, so that's two nobles close to the line of succession strong enough to be openly Aes Sedai and ruler, if they were so inclined. 

I wonder if the strength statement has a different meaning, though. Perhaps a stronger sister has more chance for success as a Queen because she wouldn't be beholden in even the tiniest way to another sister who is stronger in the Power? The Tower's insane hierarchy means she'd have to defer to those sisters, as Aes Sedai. While a queen has many ways to resist an Aes Sedai, they don't make it a practice to downright defy the Tower. A stronger sister, like Elayne, would have more influence, and therefore feel less pressure at defying the Tower when needed, so is less likely to be seen as a puppet, and would therefore be more successful?

After all, we know with Eldrene that the Amyrlin's jealousy of her cost Manetheren crucial aid from the Tower. Any openly Aes Sedai queen is likely to be a bit of a threat to an Amyrlin, except if they were friends. Brandon tried to explore this in a very ham handed way Memory of Light. It goes nowhere, and so it was pointless, but I can definitely see something like that making it hard for Aes Sedai to openly declare their allegiance to the Tower.

[David Selig]

For some reason all the times I read this quote before I thought Elaida was talking about other kinds of strength (political and of character), not about strength in the One Power, when she said that Elayne could be strong enough to be openly an Aes Sedai queen, but now that you pointed it out it seems most likely she was talking about the latter. Though with Elaida, you never know, she is not the most coherent of speakers at the best of times.

The inherent conflict of allegiances in the dual role of queen and Aes Sedai and how this would affect the close friendship between Elayne and Egwene is something I wish had been explored more in the books. But not by Sanderson, he could never pull it off. Even when Elayne was the Supreme commander in the last Battle and was giving orders to Egwene, all this led to was the silly scene where it was mentioned that Egwene and Silviana "had taken to calling Elayne by her White Tower title as opposed to her civil title".

 

[Gigei]

I just saw the trailer, and came straight here to talk about it. Pike looked amazing, but the trailer was cheesy as hell. I'm obviously still going to watch it, of course! I actually love it in a non-ironic way.

Zoë Robins is not doing it for me, but I'm willing to be persuaded that she's a good choice for my favorite character. What matters is that she has good chemistry with the other people in the main cast. At this point, I am willing to concede that certain characters will definitely not be what I imagined, so all I ask is that I be entertained.

P.S. Lan is looking fiiiiine!

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, David Selig said:

For some reason all the times I read this quote before I thought Elaida was talking about other kinds of strength (political and of character), not about strength in the One Power, when she said that Elayne could be strong enough to be openly an Aes Sedai queen, but now that you pointed it out it seems most likely she was talking about the latter. Though with Elaida, you never know, she is not the most coherent of speakers at the best of times.

I always read that to be in the Power. Elaida may think Elayne has strong character, but she often equates that with strength in the power (as do other idiotic Aes Sedai). But typically, when an Aes Sedai is referencing strength, she means in the Power unless she says otherwise, in my book. Strength in the Power is what they usually mean when they say someone is "strong".

38 minutes ago, David Selig said:

The inherent conflict of allegiances in the dual role of queen and Aes Sedai and how this would affect the close friendship between Elayne and Egwene is something I wish had been explored more in the books. But not by Sanderson, he could never pull it off. Even when Elayne was the Supreme commander in the last Battle and was giving orders to Egwene, all this led to was the silly scene where it was mentioned that Egwene and Silviana "had taken to calling Elayne by her White Tower title as opposed to her civil title".

 

Yeah, Sanderson just can't write two people on opposite ends of an argument without one coming off as totally right and the other as being an incurable moron who needs to change their mind at once.

In this case, Elayne's deal with the Kin stops making sense if you think about it for just a minute. There's a way to do it that isn't simply going to defy the Amyrlin Seat, and it's frankly absurd that Elayne didn't see it, or think that Egwene would be pissed at her power grab.

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Gigei said:

Zoë Robins is not doing it for me, but I'm willing to be persuaded that she's a good choice for my favorite character.

Me too. The other main cast has given me something that feels like their character, but I'm not connecting with Zoe yet. I know I've seen practically nothing yet and I really want to love her. We shall see soon enough!

[fionwe1987]

Are we basing these on the NYCC panel, or the trailer and clip? Or is there other interviews or something that I haven't watched?

[Gertrude]

28 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Are we basing these on the NYCC panel, or the trailer and clip? Or is there other interviews or something that I haven't watched?

I'm basing my opinion mainly on the trailer and clip. I've heard Zoe talk about Nyneave and I don't doubt on an intellectual level that she will do a great job and I trust the casting, I just haven't connected on a gut level yet.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I'm basing my opinion mainly on the trailer and clip. I've heard Zoe talk about Nyneave and I don't doubt on an intellectual level that she will do a great job and I trust the casting, I just haven't connected on a gut level yet.

Ah gotcha. I have no current expectations of any of the Two Rivers five, based on what I've seen. They all look reasonably like what I'd expect, and that's all I have, for now, so I was wondering if it was something specific about Zoe Robbins.

I'm much more confident Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo will do well than I am of most of the other cast. Especially as their characters change. The first season will be simple, it's later that it'll be interesting to see how they do, as far as I'm concerned. 

[Gigei]

11 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ah gotcha. I have no current expectations of any of the Two Rivers five, based on what I've seen. They all look reasonably like what I'd expect, and that's all I have, for now, so I was wondering if it was something specific about Zoe Robbins.

I'm much more confident Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo will do well than I am of most of the other cast. Especially as their characters change. The first season will be simple, it's later that it'll be interesting to see how they do, as far as I'm concerned. 

Pike already looks amazing

Zoe specifically has a tough role since she's got to be tough and funny as hell.  Unless they rewrite Nyn to be non-comedic.

And, you know basically Lan falls madly in love with her in just a few days. It's like when I watched the Miss Saigon "making of" video and they say "She must be the most wonderful girl on stage because you must understand that the guy is going to fall in love with her at first sight."

Hmm, I guess for the other Two Rivers people it's just general teenaged drama so it's easier, IMO. And because Nyn is my favorite char so I was looking at her the most.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Gigei said:

Pike already looks amazing

Zoe specifically has a tough role since she's got to be tough and funny as hell.  Unless they rewrite Nyn to be non-comedic.

And, you know basically Lan falls madly in love with her in just a few days. It's like when I watched the Miss Saigon "making of" video and they say "She must be the most wonderful girl on stage because you must understand that the guy is going to fall in love with her at first sight."

Hmm, I guess for the other Two Rivers people it's just general teenaged drama so it's easier, IMO. And because Nyn is my favorite char so I was looking at her the most.

The tough thing is, Nynaeve is prickly and gloriously angry. I love that, but wonder if that can translate to screen as is. I hope so. You don't get to see that often, on screen, at least not done well, and I'd love it if they change that. 

What will come through, I'm sure, is her sense of dedication to her people, her bravery and her compassion. That's easier to pull off, and that's a lot of what Lan admires in her. 

[Gertrude]

Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? I am seeing Nyneave being all kinds of fierce in these clips, but they are not really showing the parts where she's protective and caring (aside from the brief smile she throws Egwene). I also love her insecurity and the burden of responsibility she internalizes. Lots of stuff to get across for this character, as the heart of her is hidden. I think she's gonna be a slow burn, just like in the books.

And as Gigei says, she really is comedic relief a fair bit and we won't be seeing this yet, especially not in the clips. That's a big part of her charm too.

[fionwe1987]

17 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? I am seeing Nyneave being all kinds of fierce in these clips, but they are not really showing the parts where she's protective and caring (aside from the brief smile she throws Egwene). I also love her insecurity and the burden of responsibility she internalizes. Lots of stuff to get across for this character, as the heart of her is hidden. I think she's gonna be a slow burn, just like in the books.

And as Gigei says, she really is comedic relief a fair bit and we won't be seeing this yet, especially not in the clips. That's a big part of her charm too.

Yes I hope the clips and trailer aren't representative of the balance they achieve for her character.

A lot of her comedy, like Mat's, is internal, however. She ain't a humorous person. The humor in her PoVs comes from the clear difference between how she perceives herself and how she's actually behaving. That's tricky to translate to screen. 

What Nynaeve has is incredibly strong imposter syndrome. She doesn't think she's really up to the job, and she overcompensates, but she's so dedicated and focussed on her job that she actually does have everything in her that makes her a good fit for the job.

Writing all that just makes me realize how much I appreciate her as a character. I really hope some of that comes over to the screen, at least. 

[Gertrude]

Yeah, there's a lot internally, but not all of it. Kicking Mat square in the pants is one scene that comes to mind  

I think they can demonstrate that her words and her actions don't match up if they want to without much problem. Same with Mat, actually.  They both have a lack of self-awareness problem.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[fionwe1987]

16 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, there's a lot internally, but not all of it. Kicking Mat square in the pants is one scene that comes to mind  

I think they can demonstrate that her words and her actions don't match up if they want to without much problem. Same with Mat, actually.  They both have a lack of self-awareness problem.

Haha yes, I remember that scene. "Warm my bottom?" 

I've always been someone who's left cold by Mat. He's an entertaining read, but he's an asshole. It grates on my nerves that he's much loved despite this while the female characters' momentary assholery gets epic rage poems in response. 

Whether RJ could write women well or not, the fanbase's response to them is often sadly laced with the exact kind of double standards and bullshit women face in real life. 

[Arataniello]

After watching the trailer (which was too short to really form an opinion on it), I have dug out the books on Kindle, and started a quick read/flick through the first few volumes.  Plenty of good stuff in tEotW that I hope makes it into the series.  And then will have to wait and see how the series deals with the infamous bloat in later books.

 

[Ran]

I feel the difference between Mat's alleged assholery and the perceived assholery of female characters that Mat is very much in the "rogue/scoundrel with the heart of gold" archetype -- he mostly just cares about having fun and doing his thing, sometimes to the point of trying to run away from trouble and responsibility, and ostensibly just wants to stay out of people's business as much as possible..., but inevitably the better angels of his nature or his ta'veren-ess pulls him into doing the right thing.

Whereas unfortunately a lot of RJ's female characters are, to be frank, presented as women who firmly believe they know best and that it's their responsibility to pull others (especially woolheaded men) along for their own good. They are meddlers in the lives of others, which is basically how the Tower sees itself writ large. They may well be right, quite often, but it's really not fun to be on the receiving end of someone who insists on telling you what to do. Hence why Mat gets a pass and Aes Sedai characters like Cadsuane do not.

It's actually rather interesting that in a sense the three lads all resist being put in positions of responsibility over others, but are forced by circumstance or the requirement of the moment to do just that, whereas most of the women in general actively pursue and embrace that authority (with the exception of Min and to a degree Aviendha.)

 

[fionwe1987]

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

I feel the difference between Mat's alleged assholery and the perceived assholery of female characters that Mat is very much in the "rogue/scoundrel with the heart of gold" archetype -- he mostly just cares about having fun and doing his thing, sometimes to the point of trying to run away from trouble and responsibility, and ostensibly just wants to stay out of people's business as much as possible..., but inevitably the better angels of his nature or his ta'veren-ess pulls him into doing the right thing.

Whereas unfortunately a lot of RJ's female characters are, to be frank, presented as women who firmly believe they know best and that it's their responsibility to pull others (especially woolheaded men) along for their own good. They are meddlers in the lives of others, which is basically how the Tower sees itself writ large. They may well be right, quite often, but it's really not fun to be on the receiving end of someone who insists on telling you what to do. Hence why Mat gets a pass and Aes Sedai characters like Cadsuane do not.

It's actually rather interesting that in a sense the three lads all resist being put in positions of responsibility over others, but are forced by circumstance or the requirement of the moment to do just that, whereas most of the women in general actively pursue and embrace that authority (with the exception of Min and to a degree Aviendha.)

 

That is correct. But along the way, Mat abandons his friends multiple times, betrays the spring of his promises to them, and generally tries to do as much as he can to stay away from the action.

There has to be a point, with the end of the world approaching, when taking responsibility is the right choice, and running from it the wrong. In fan reaction, at least, that doesn't seem to happen.

And while this is an interesting contrast within WoT, that the women take up their responsibilities without complaint, even some eagerness unlike the men, there are plenty of male characters who take up power actively in other stories who don't get the same kind of reaction.

Of course, all this discussion is confused further by the fact that there are aspects of RJ's writing that aren't helping much, here. Hopefully, the show helps resolve that. 

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That is correct. But along the way, Mat abandons his friends multiple times, betrays the spring of his promises to them, and generally tries to do as much as he can to stay away from the action.

There has to be a point, with the end of the world approaching, when taking responsibility is the right choice, and running from it the wrong. In fan reaction, at least, that doesn't seem to happen.

When does Mat betray his friends and betrays the spring of his promises to them? I recall that in one of the middle books the main female characters make a big a deal about getting Mat to give his word, because he will never betray a promise. He hates responsibility and wants an easy life. But when he puts his mind to something, he does get it done. Multiple times he does do the right, responsible thing. His humor is largely centered about his grumbling about his lot in life, while still doing the right thing.