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The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]


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15 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

This doesn't look to be from the soundtrack. Would be quite weird if they were going to Caemlyn but not seeing Elayne. 

 

26 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Or more? Maybe make him being a dick more understandable because there is a difference between fearing a mad channeler because of stories vs, first hand experience.

Right that's what I meant. 

26 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Logain laughing at seeing Mat would be a misdirection. Because Rand shone extremely brightly in Logain's eyes, so Logain pretty much realized at whom he was looking. Mat would not shine quite as brightly.

It's not like Logain has seen a bunch of ta'veren to construct a proper scale. Rand is almost certainly the first ta'veren Logain had ever seen. 

19 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

 

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No, the Logain clip and the Darkspawn clip both look cheesy on a deep, profound level. This is shaping up to be the kind of series that you really need to like Doctor Who degree of camp in order to enjoy. I'm not such an individual, unfortunately.

Seeing this does make me appreciate even more what was achieved in GoT. Sure, the ending crashed and burned, but every fantasy series that has followed can't even achieve lift off.

It staggers me that the people who can be derisive of that show are able to look at these clips - which putting it frankly, are incredibly dumb - and say this show has promise.

I mean, it's all subjective. But I guess I'm not creative enough to empathize with that mindset in any way. To me it's like someone declaring Apocalypse Now an awful movie because of its flaws, and then holding Rambo 3 as the gold standard.

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14 minutes ago, IFR said:

No, the Logain clip and the Darkspawn clip both look cheesy on a deep, profound level. This is shaping up to be the kind of series that you really need to like Doctor Who degree of camp in order to enjoy. I'm not such an individual, unfortunately.

Seeing this does make me appreciate even more what was achieved in GoT. Sure, the ending crashed and burned, but every fantasy series that has followed can't even achieve lift off.

It staggers me that the people who can be derisive of that show are able to look at these clips - which putting it frankly, are incredibly dumb - and say this show has promise.

I mean, it's all subjective. But I guess I'm not creative enough to empathize with that mindset in any way. To me it's like someone declaring Apocalypse Now an awful movie because of its flaws, and then holding Rambo 3 as the gold standard.

These few clips made mi think of a Xena series, but with a better effects and costumes.

I think the book fans won't mind cheesiness since the books themselves are quite juvenile (at least the first few that I've read), but I think it will limit the appeal for the general audience (non book readers) who will struggle to take the show seriously and care for the characters, like they did for GoT.

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I think cheesiness is a function of immersion and suspension of disbelief. If you're immersed in the world and it's mechanics, a portentous line about A character's strength in the Power are going to be cheesy and absurd, especially without the context the actual show can provide.

And hey, if the books/show fail to lead you to that level of immersion, fair enough.

But personally, I'm glad to see they aren't sanding down those aspects of the world that provide context to the character interactions, like strength in the One Power, in pursuit of the mythical "general audience". We're in an age of TV where you don't have to appeal to a "general" audience to succeed. 

I'd be perfectly glad if WoT is a good, well realized genre show. It would lose everything that makes it fun if it attempts to be another GoT and tones down it's fantasy elements to grasp at people who collapse in a faint at the first hint of the fantastical.

WoT is a world where the fantasy elements permeate deep down into the social interactions of characters. WoTs uniqueness is that unlike your average comic book story, these elements have reasonable internal consistency and cohesion, so you can actually build plot arcs around them.

Strip that all that off and it's going to be a poor attempt of retrofitting a totally different story to the formula that helped GoT succeed. And that would doom it to failure.

What they need to do is keep those "geeky"/cheesy elements that make the books tick, lean into them and do them in a way that feels good on screen. The Logain clip convinced me there's a chance they can.

Engage with the actual material and world building and mine it for drama, instead of mostly being embarrassed about the setting, backgrounding it severely, and then ending up with an incomprehensibly dumb ending because you reached a point when those elements ended up in the foreground as far as the author's outline went, and you were caught with your pants down because you didn't really think about how, say, having a Dragon would impact someone's thinking about how to win a war, and ended up with spectacularly dumb moments that looked ok CGI wise, and felt absurd to anyone with half a brain.

This clip, and Rosamund Pike's excitement about portraying Moiraine's relationship to Lan, are the two things that give me hope for the show. If they set up these elements well, and then the drama flows with what looks like fairly competent CGI, it'll be good enough an adaptation for me. 

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(Judging solely by these clips shown out of context) I'd say this looks less "cheesy" than Shadow and Bone, which I enjoyed and will keep watching when season two comes out. The WoT world looks more lived in, much more so than fantasy tv shows of years past, like Xena, et al. 

Yes, I'll be watching regardless. I'm too big of a WoT fan not to, but I'll reserve criticism until I've actually watched an episode or three. It will have to be Shannara level bad to make me stop watching. Who am I kidding. It would have to be worse to make me stop, but my wife may tune out if it's Shannara levels of tv. 

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Speaking of Shadow and Bone, I still think that show's VFX work for the magic is looking better than what we have seen so far for WoT. Tainted saidin looked like a poor man's version of the Darkling's shadow powers.

WoT looks like it put a lot more effort and expense in sets, locations, and practical effects, OTOH.

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I'm honestly not sure if I'll keep watching, and it's too early for me to know what can make me quit.

But I'm not going in with high expectations. The one thing that absolutely will tick me off enough to stop watching is if they try to make this something GoT like. So far, that doesn't appear to be true. 

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2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

(Judging solely by these clips shown out of context) I'd say this looks less "cheesy" than Shadow and Bone, which I enjoyed and will keep watching when season two comes out. The WoT world looks more lived in, much more so than fantasy tv shows of years past, like Xena, et al. 

Yes, I'll be watching regardless. I'm too big of a WoT fan not to, but I'll reserve criticism until I've actually watched an episode or three. It will have to be Shannara level bad to make me stop watching. Who am I kidding. It would have to be worse to make me stop, but my wife may tune out if it's Shannara levels of tv. 

I'm kind of in the same boat. I guess I'm being Ms Stick-in-the-Mud because I want this to be good and it's looking to be another disappointing, uninspired fantasy.

With fantasy, there are plenty of good books, but very, very few successful adaptations.

I really, really want to enjoy this. But so many signs are pointing to it going into the bin of unwatchably campy fantasy.

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm honestly not sure if I'll keep watching, and it's too early for me to know what can make me quit.

But I'm not going in with high expectations. The one thing that absolutely will tick me off enough to stop watching is if they try to make this something GoT like. So far, that doesn't appear to be true. 

You know, I agree. I don't want another GoT clone either. If you are going to adapt a story, adapt the story. Don't make it into something else.

However, the approach that the creators seems to be going with (aesthetic, changes, etc) make this seem like it will be a poor adaptation.

But we'll have to see. I guess I need to stop raining on everyone's parade. We're a month away before we have sufficient context to judge the quality of the show. No use fretting until then.

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19 minutes ago, IFR said:

With fantasy, there are plenty of good books, but very, very few successful adaptations.

True, but I don't think that's because they don't choose to reach a general audience. I think it's because they don't lean into what makes fantasy fantasy. 

19 minutes ago, IFR said:

You know, I agree. I don't want another GoT clone either. If you are going to adapt a story, adapt the story. Don't make it into something else.

Exactly. Now, how well they actually manage to bring enough of what makes WoT tick to screen is an open question.

19 minutes ago, IFR said:

However, the approach that the creators seems to be going with (aesthetic, changes, etc) make this seem like it will be a poor adaptation.

I'm honestly going to be very lenient with story changes. Frankly, if I have an issue, it with them not using the readily available "it's another turning of the Wheel" reason to justify just whatever they want. It's right in the story. Heck, they can be clever and have call-outs to the books as they are in some scenes where some characters get to glimpse alternate realities. 

19 minutes ago, IFR said:

But we'll have to see. I guess I need to stop raining on everyone's parade. We're a month away before we have sufficient context to judge the quality of the show. No use fretting until then.

Nah there's no parade. We're all just doing what fans do, spending energy wondering if the show will speak to us and scratch the itch for good speculative fiction on screen.

I'd love for WoT to succeed. If nothing, it's success should tell Hollywood that they can safely move past the "Medieval Europe knights riding horses" kind of fantasy and explore the wealth of even more experimental and fun worlds that came after WoT.

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I think what we're seeing is that Amazon's approach to marketing doesn't give them as much resources for custom promo clips so they're chopping up actual scenes rather than really short shots, but the chopped up scenes feel off due to the continuity breaks. I'm pretty confident that most of the Winespring Inn scene will play much less awkwardly in the show.

I also half expect that the effects we're seeing still aren't fully rendered and will look better in the final release.

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2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think what we're seeing is that Amazon's approach to marketing doesn't give them as much resources for custom promo clips so they're chopping up actual scenes rather than really short shots, but the chopped up scenes feel off due to the continuity breaks. I'm pretty confident that most of the Winespring Inn scene will play much less awkwardly in the show.

I also half expect that the effects we're seeing still aren't fully rendered and will look better in the final release.

While I hope this is true, I'm trying to go in expecting the show pieced together from these clips..less likely I'll be wildly disappointed.:crying:

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3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm honestly going to be very lenient with story changes. Frankly, if I have an issue, it with them not using the readily available "it's another turning of the Wheel" reason to justify just whatever they want. It's right in the story. Heck, they can be clever and have call-outs to the books as they are in some scenes where some characters get to glimpse alternate realities. 

I was only thinking about this last weekend and thought you could go with some fun Easter egg changes for book readers that don't detract from the experience for show only viewers. Small things like changing the Mercedes Benz hood ornament for a Tesla and other little things like that. Update the nods to the real world with things that are newer than the books.

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46 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I was only thinking about this last weekend and thought you could go with some fun Easter egg changes for book readers that don't detract from the experience for show only viewers. Small things like changing the Mercedes Benz hood ornament for a Tesla and other little things like that. Update the nods to the real world with things that are newer than the books.

Oooh WILD! Yeah, the call-outs to our Age can absolutely be updated safely. Heck, they can bring in Trump and Covid, if they want. RJ picked the Cold War, the preeminent geopolitical issue of this time, to feature in the books. That can be changed safely, since we know more of the "past" of the WoT world than RJ did.

 

You should suggest this to the writers or something. It's a great idea.

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2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

RJ picked the Cold War, the preeminent geopolitical issue of this time, to feature in the books.

I'm gonna say that it wasn't really a thing on my mind when I was growing up. For reference, I was in college when the Berlin Wall fell. It was a backdrop sure, but no one I knew or ever talked to about that era felt it was a real possibility, It's just not something that affected us. This was a fear for an earlier generation - for instance Jordan's generation. By the time the book was written it was mostly a thing of the past. Trump and Covid are drastically different in that way and would be a quick way to turn off an audience if inadvertently done wrong, so I think it would be smart to steer clear of that.

Honestly, I don't think they will devote much screentime to those types of references if at all. Maybe a giraffe skeleton but I don't anticipate hearing about Mosk and Merk, Anla or seeing any type of modern logo. I'm not sad about it either, because I don't really seeing it being added in without being forced. I could be wrong.

 

As for the taint on the weaves, I like the way they've visualized it - I think it works well in this medium and will be impactful when it's cleansed. I do hope that it's clearer in the show that the white is there before being covered in oil, because I only really noticed that in the slow-mo shots of people analyzing it. Maybe that's on me for not noticing it, but if I didn't, other people won't either.

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12 hours ago, karaddin said:

also half expect that the effects we're seeing still aren't fully rendered and will look better in the final release.

That can't be the case. The show airs next month. Episodes are I suspect largely locked down and complete by this point, except perhaps towards the end of the season.

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7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I'm gonna say that it wasn't really a thing on my mind when I was growing up. For reference, I was in college when the Berlin Wall fell. It was a backdrop sure, but no one I knew or ever talked to about that era felt it was a real possibility, It's just not something that affected us. This was a fear for an earlier generation - for instance Jordan's generation. By the time the book was written it was mostly a thing of the past. Trump and Covid are drastically different in that way and would be a quick way to turn off an audience if inadvertently done wrong, so I think it would be smart to steer clear of that.

Honestly, I don't think they will devote much screentime to those types of references if at all. Maybe a giraffe skeleton but I don't anticipate hearing about Mosk and Merk, Anla or seeing any type of modern logo. I'm not sad about it either, because I don't really seeing it being added in without being forced. I could be wrong.

I think it's precisely because the past references are so vague that they can safely reference current events without exactly making a political statement. Whatever you think of Trump, for example, he exists and he had a huge impact on the world. Just as the story of Mosk and Merk says nothing at all about Capitalism or Communism, you can refer to other political events through the filter of "stories becoming legend becoming myth" and just add the color that provides.

 

And I don't expect this to be something that's going to take up screentime either. These are stray references in the book, and that's how it should be on TV. A song, a vague story reference, things like that. 

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for the taint on the weaves, I like the way they've visualized it - I think it works well in this medium and will be impactful when it's cleansed. I do hope that it's clearer in the show that the white is there before being covered in oil, because I only really noticed that in the slow-mo shots of people analyzing it. Maybe that's on me for not noticing it, but if I didn't, other people won't either.

Yeah I hope that too. This weave from his cage doesn't show up as black, so I hope they do it more slowly at other times, or have an establishing shot where maybe Logain explains the taint to someone as it flows over his weaves, or something. They get to use Logain for a bunch of exposition about saidin and the taint, get the audience used to the horror of the taint and cement that with the Ways, all before it's clear Rand is channeling.

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9 hours ago, Ran said:

That can't be the case. The show airs next month. Episodes are I suspect largely locked down and complete by this point, except perhaps towards the end of the season.

I know some people on Amazon's early feedback programme have seen at least several episodes already and noted that they were mostly complete, with apparently finished CGI, but they hadn't edited in the title sequence or credits, so they're probably nearly there.

Episodes 1-6 were effectively completed before the very first lockdown and the CG and post teams went to work on them back then (March 2020), so they've had a huge amount of time to get those episodes done, even if 7 and 8 are not fully there yet.

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Ah right, I was forgetting that the pandemic would have impacted timing for this as well. I thought that TV generally runs pretty tight on its deadlines for getting things finished, but I might have been mixing that up with animation (specifically anime) as well.

22 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And I don't expect this to be something that's going to take up screentime either. These are stray references in the book, and that's how it should be on TV. A song, a vague story reference, things like that. 

Yeah I'm thinking of things like "company logo in the background of a flash back scene in a museum" kind of thing. Zero narrative weight or attention, just easter eggs.

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2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Ah right, I was forgetting that the pandemic would have impacted timing for this as well. I thought that TV generally runs pretty tight on its deadlines for getting things finished, but I might have been mixing that up with animation (specifically anime) as well.

Most TV productions use external companies to handle the CG, so the whole idea about the delay giving them more time to make the effects look better (not just for WoT but for every TV production out there) is a nice one but not really likely unless they also poured a lot more money into the team to account for the extra time they're spending on the work. So I suspect the effects won't necessarily look better given they've had 18 months to work on finished episodes rather than 6, since they'd have the same money and thus would have spent the same amount of time on them. Also, it's probably not a great idea to spend more time and money making your Season 1 effects look amazing when Season 2 onwards is going to have less time and money (i.e. the normal amount) to spend.

LotR might be in a different boat, since they're simply pouring more than twice as much cash into it (and possibly four times, though I remain sceptical of those figures).

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