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The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]


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22 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Daniel Henney mentioned in the article that he will have a naked hot tub scene. Will this become a new staple for fantasy shows? Inquiring minds want to know...

Having Henry Cavil naked in a bath was all my wife needed to hear to watch Witcher. :) 

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16 minutes ago, Ran said:

A second thing I noticed near the end: nearly 11,000 notes for changes to the pilot from Amazon Studio execs feels absolutely insane. If the figure is true, there are a couple of conclusions one could draw.

Professionally, I consult and built online training, so I have experience submitting work for review and fielding an obscene amount of comments about everything from size/color of font, image placement, cast wardrobe, etc. You know. The bits that impact whether someone learned something. :rolleyes:

In the past, depending on clients, we would get an unbelievable amount of comments covering every minutiae you can think of. Basically, there are people who think that if they don't mention everything that could be a problem, they're not doing their job and/or are afraid if they don't document a question/objection to something that blows up, it could reflect poorly on them.

None of these approaches are aimed at making a better product. 

I've never had to address anything near close to 11,000, but I've also never been a part of a production that cost millions per unit. I can absolutely see a young studio like Amazon barrage the showrunner with level of "in the weeds" comments. 

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Judkins proposed emphasizing the most progressive elements of the books—their female characters, however shakily drawn; their many nations and many races; their modern, skeptical view of how power is wielded between the sexes—and building a series from there. The show, in Judkins's version, would be a corrective to the hypermasculine world of Thrones, with its casual presentation of bare breasts and ruthless treatment of its female characters.

I'm sure this is gonna make the heads of some fans explode. But to me, that's promising. It's a good niche to carve out for the show, and emphasizes/updates the right parts of WoT to give it a distinct feel.

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The photos in that article look beautiful.

Mat Cauthon being recast after 1 season seems like a big red flag though. Really wonder what went wrong there. Feel sorry for the actor as it's the role of a lifetime.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Except that for me, and a lot of people, they pretty much nailed most of the characters. The only issue I had was with Mat and Tam (not their look or acting abilities, but the lack of consistency with the rest of the population), because it basically leaves Rand's sole distinguishing feature as being "the only ginger in the village," which is a bit less distinctive than being the only redhead plus the tallest guy by like half a foot plus being the whitest guy around, which made him stand out more.

Most of the other quibbles I think are unavoidable: do you spend months trying to track down a 5-foot actress with the required gravitas and authority to play Moiraine, or do you say fuck it and go with the Oscar-winning, high-profile actress who's having a major PR Moment which can only benefit the show, plus is a pretty good actress and otherwise a ringer for the character despite being 7 or 8 inches taller? That's a no brainer to me.

Adam, you're being extremely disingenuous here. You are well aware that no one is complaining about Moiraine's size. Or even about Rand or Mat.

It's pretty much everyone else that people are concerned about. Two Rivers is supposed to be the ass-end of the kingdom and yet it's even more cosmopolitan than Brooklyn. That Winespring Inn scene was too over the top in that regard. 

Still, if the cast can mesh and pull it off, it could still work and work well. But what we've seen thus far hasn't been all that good. I'm going into this one with decidedly low expectations. Given that we met on wotmania.com, you know how big a fan I used to be. People like the two of us should be excited and eating all this stuff up with a spoon. But so far everything we've seen and heard has been quite divisive among WoT fans. Which doesn't bode well for what comes next. . .

The majority of SFF shows that went against the author's vision and the original source material have tanked. Some of them spectacularly.

We'll know soon enough. . .

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1 minute ago, Lord Patrek said:

Adam, you're being extremely disingenuous here. You are well aware that no one is complaining about Moiraine's size. Or even about Rand or Mat.

It's pretty much everyone else that people are concerned about. Two Rivers is supposed to be the ass-end of the kingdom and yet it's even more cosmopolitan than Brooklyn. That Winespring Inn scene was too over the top in that regard. 

 

Ie. anyone who isn't white? 

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The cast is too multicultural for a backwater village like Two Rivers. I understand what the production is trying to do and it's all well and good. It just goes against RJ's vision and the image that readers have of those characters.

When they bring Jemisin's works to the screen, they won't gender-swap or race-change the protagonists the way they've done with Foundation and WoT. They'll be black because they were always meant to be black. They won't whitewash certain characters to be seen as more inclusive. And that's as it should be.

This was a criticism that GoT had to put up with for years, yet that didn't stop millions and millions of people of all colors and all creeds from enjoying the show and making it one of the must-watch series on the planet.

To see various ethnic groups in important port cities such as Tear, Ebou Dar, or Illian would make perfect sense. Two Rivers is supposed to be the ass-end of Andor. In that regard, the casting makes little sense. To have Aes Sedai of all ethnic groups makes perfect sense as well, as they come from all corners of the world. But by going all out, it sort of backfires.

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Looking again at the bigger picture of the Whitecloaks, I can't but be disappointed. One could say they have a different look from what others shows have done. But not really, they still look like the "baddies" only wearing white, not black. Personally I'm not looking for different and original, I'm looking for practical.

  • What's the point of the left side armor, if no one wears a helmet? The extras could at least wear helmets, since usually the main actors don't.
  • The straight haircuts and mustaches are a bit too on the nose.
  • So besides the left arm, they really have no armor. They seem to wear tunics and overly snug robes. 
  • They wear what look like 19th century cavalry swords. Well I suppose, if all you're fighting are unarmored opponents. Why not try to emulate the 16th-17th century look RJ was mostly going for, though? 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Looking again at the bigger picture of the Whitecloaks, I can't but be disappointed. One could say they have a different look from what others shows have done. But not really, they still look like the "baddies" only wearing white, not black. Personally I'm not looking for different and original, I'm looking for practical.

  • What's the point of the left side armor, if no one wears a helmet? The extras could at least wear helmets, since usually the main actors don't.
  • The straight haircuts and mustaches are a bit too on the nose.
  • So besides the left arm, they really have no armor. They seem to wear tunics and overly snug robes. 
  • They wear what look like 19th century cavalry swords. Well I suppose, if all you're fighting are unarmored opponents. Why not try to emulate the 16th-17th century look RJ was mostly going for, though? 

 

 

That's not armor, that's a uniform.  The stuff on the left arm I would guess is the rank but might also be practical for duels.

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It's just a matter of homogenity. I recall a couple of years ago when things were first being announced that changing things so that the TR were all black (or Asian, or Indian, or whatever) except for Rand looking different (i.e. a plausible combination of the TR look and whatever his mother was) which would make more sense, realistically-speaking, than the idea that the Two Rivers is ... well, yeah, cosmopolitan. Because it doesn't make sense.

There's literally a plot point made of the fact that Rand doesn't look like a Two Rivers person, which strongly implies that people from the Two Rivers have a broadly similar population-wide look. Which makes sense: they are the isolated remnant of Manetheren who have been left largely alone with only a trickle of outside infusions of genes, it's going to be an inbred population. They have been isolated in this place, in these handful of villages -- not even towns -- and rural farms for over 2,000 years. It's why Mat can randomly shout Old Tongue, because Jordan had the notion of "genetic memory" and it runs strong and deep in the Two Rivers.

Now, I think he imagined the TR people as being "Black Irish" in appearance, because that's what he said his own roots were and he identified with it. The term "Black Irish" was used for Irish people with a darker complexion, dark eyes, and dark hair. Folk histories claimed they were descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armada who ended up shipwrecked in Ireland and intermarried with the Irish, but that's untrue -- there were just variations among groups in widely-separated areas of Ireland, with a lot of the fairer blond/red-hair Irish getting them from the Norse, for example.

But the show could have made them most anything else, I suppose, selecting performers that could broadly pass as having similar ethnic origins. As it stands, there seems to be three or four distinct ethnic groups in the Two Rivers. Rand's red hair seems to be what will be the standout detail that will distinguish him from everyone else, I guess... but looking back at the Winespring Inn clip, there's at least two blond people among the extras, so... maybe they'll just drop that line from Elaida.

There are limits to all this. It may be easy to find actors with roots in the MENA (Middle East/North AFrica) region for Saldaeans like Davram and Faile, but one who also has red hair and green eyes (i.e. Sheriam) may be a little tougher to manage. 

In any case, it is what it is.

@Corvinus85

To be fair, there are early 17th century cavalry sabres, though I admit the design of these Whiterobe ones looks more 19th century.

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18 minutes ago, Ran said:

In any case, it is what it is.

It is and that's the end of it.

But it is offputting a somewhat big chunk of WoT fandom, which is never good. The sneak peeks we've seen thus far have also been divisive. So much so that the tor.com Facebook page shut down comments shortly after the trailer was first posted.

This is the first adaptation of a worldwide bestselling series. Amazon has high hopes for it. If WoT fandom is split, it will be hard to then get mainstream audiences to hop on the bandwagon. Which, ultimately, may get the series cancelled early.

Lots of decisions, regarding casting and otherwise, proved to be divisive among fans months before the first scene was ever filmed. Going against the author's vision and fans' expectations can be costly and often fatal.

We'll find out soon enough.

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I think as GoT shows, the show audience is going to dwarf the core literary fan audience, so I really don't think WoT will rise and fall by what the "old" fans think. It'll rise and fall by whether viewers, the majority of whom will not be readers, like it or not.

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The initial push, regardless of its size, is almost always produced by fans. They have their importance, even if it does dwindle as time goes by.

But yes, it's the mainstream audiences that make or break a tv show/movie. When fans abandon ship, the way they did with Legends of the Seeker and The Shannara Chronicles, it usually signals the beginning of the end. Having a sizeable portion of fandom less than enthused by what they've seen thus far is not an auspiscious start for the WoT tv series.

Time will tell.

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You are well aware that no one is complaining about Moiraine's size.

I forget, you don't do Reddit, do you?

The absolute fucking number of people complaining about Rosamund Pike being absolutely unsuitable for the role and "ruining the character" because she's seven or eight inches taller than the character in the book is beyond belief. Every time anything new teaser or trailer pops up with her in it, you have to brace for volumes of "She's too tall," "Couldn't they find a shorter actress," "Moiraine isn't as tall as Lan!" and other golden nuggets of wisdom on Reddit (and YouTube, and the Gawker sites, and Tor.com). It's quite mind-bogglingly tedious, especially because you know this going to be a "Jaime's nose" thing where people will forget about it five seconds after the first couple of episodes air.

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It's pretty much everyone else that people are concerned about.

Yes, and a lot of that criticism comes from a place that frankly should not even be entertained.

The Two Rivers is located on the same latitude as North Africa and in the books they make enough of a fuss about Rand standing out from the rest of the population by being light-skinned, so people complaining about the presence of darker-skinned people in such a locale really need to be loaded into a cannon and shot into the sun. And the main valid complaint I have seen from people, as Ran mentions, is the lack of homogeneity among the cast, so if everyone was darker-skinned bar Rand that would make sense, so the fact that some characters are white and some are darker is what's causing legitimate questions. The people questioning the presence of darker skinned characters full stop have, quite rightly, been told to fuck off.

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They have been isolated in this place, in these handful of villages -- not even towns -- and rural farms for over 2,000 years.

The Two Rivers have been isolated, but it's nowhere said that they've been isolated since the Trolloc Wars, which is rather excessive. In fact, the textual content suggests exactly the contrary.

The Two Rivers was part of the highly populous, well-travelled kingdom of Manetheren for thirteen centuries, and then it was part of the apparently also highly-populous, well-travelled kingdom of Farashelle for another thousand years before becoming part of Andor after its initial expansion phase. During its time as part of Andor, the Two Rivers became famous for its tabac, which it was taxed on and which travelled far and wide across the continent, and Two Rivers merchants travelled at least through Andor.

At a certain point, the Two Rivers became less well-travelled and more isolated, but it is nowhere said that this has been for two thousand years. The most that's said about it is that the Two Rivers haven't seen a government tax official in "generations" (so maybe 50 years at the low end, depending how Jordan was using that phrase). However, as recently as Morgase's childhood or teenage years (only ~25 years before the books start), Two Rivers folk still travelled widely enough to visit Caemlyn, and for Morgase to recall their accents. We do get a suggestion that Tam leaving the Two Rivers for such a prolonged period of time was unusual (starting 40 years before the books and returning home 20 years later) and bringing an outlander wife with him was uncommon for Emond's Field (though not necessarily for Taren Ferry, where they have much more regular contact with outlanders).

The sense from the books is that the Two Rivers has been isolated for a fairly long time, maybe the bulk of a human lifetime, but it's certainly not many centuries or millennia. So you could make some arguments towards why the region would be more diverse-appearing, with varying degrees of credibility (that's not even getting into the fact that the TV show takes place in a separate continuity and canon, in a different turning of the Wheel altogether).

That's ignoring Jordan's somewhat spotty worldbuilding that a region which is about a quarter the size of England would be so sparsely populated in the first place and have such little travel given it's not landlocked and in fact is on one of two biggest river networks of the entire continent.

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    What's the point of the left side armor, if no one wears a helmet? The extras could at least wear helmets, since usually the main actors don't.

  •  

It's a rank symbol. Stuart Graham, who is playing Lord Captain Geofram Bornhald, has a gold armour piece and Abdul Sullis, who is playing Eamon Valda, has a silver one. Intriguingly, that suggests that Valda may be subordinate to Bornhald at the start (maybe he's playing more of a Jaret Byar role to start with?) and become Lord Captain later on.

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When fans abandon ship, the way they did with Legends of the Seeker and The Shannara Chronicles, it usually signals the beginning of the end.

This is ignoring the slight difference that the source material in both those cases is also pretty shit, and in the case of The Sword of Shannara unfilmable without getting a legal order from the Tolkien Estate, and in the case of the Goodkind series, unadaptable unless they wanted to dedicate entire episodes to frothing, hate speeches about lightly fantasised versions of the Democrats.

WoT has its problems, but it has a much stronger and sounder basis to be starting from.

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To be fair, and you know how much I hated and mocked Goodkind, the production totally twisted SoT into something that was almost a parody.

I actually do Reddit, but just the SFF boards and not the WoT-specific subs. Personally, even though she's much taller than her character should be, I have no problem with Pike playing Moiraine. As you said, the show needs an actress of some renown to anchor things down and give the production some cred. A bit like Sean Bean playing Ned in the first season of GoT. 

Much of the complaints I've seen had to do with the rest of the cast. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

It is and that's the end of it.

But it is offputting a somewhat big chunk of WoT fandom, which is never good. The sneak peeks we've seen thus far have also been divisive. So much so that the tor.com Facebook page shut down comments shortly after the trailer was first posted.

This is the first adaptation of a worldwide bestselling series. Amazon has high hopes for it. If WoT fandom is split, it will be hard to then get mainstream audiences to hop on the bandwagon. Which, ultimately, may get the series cancelled early.

Lots of decisions, regarding casting and otherwise, proved to be divisive among fans months before the first scene was ever filmed. Going against the author's vision and fans' expectations can be costly and often fatal.

We'll find out soon enough.

I think you really overrate the importance of what a some hardcore fans are saying online. For them, the casting was always going to be divisive unless it's 100% "by the books" (and even then people would argue since they have their own interpretations of the text). Lots of readers have complained about Moiraine's height, Rand's height, Lan being too handsome and pretty much everything else possible.

Also, Game of Thrones aged up a lot of the main characters by 8-10 years and the kids by 3-4 years, the actors in several cases were 15 years older than their characters in the books, they changed Tyrion from hideous looking into very handsome guy, Brienne was made 15 years older and was played by a gorgeous actress, etc. All of this, especially the latter two cases, is much more important for their characterization than the race of the WoT main characters. Nobody cared except a small minority of the most hardcore fans of the books and even most of them stopped caring once the show got going.

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The fact that the Two Rivers was part of Farashalle is not different in my mind that it was part of Andor -- there's no evidence it was any more connected to that kingdom than it is to Andor. There are no ruins of Farashalle noted, no signs that being part of that kingdom left a mark. And again, the text makes it clear that outsiders are very rare and there's zero evidence that this is something that's only happened in the last century. It's been six generations since an Andoran tax collector appeared, seven since a Queen's Guard did, and most people in the Westlands have no clue where the Two Rivers is while most in the Two Rivers have no clue they're part of Andor or supposed to be ruled by a Queen. That tabac makes it out is all well and good, but that's basically it -- once or twice a year some peddlers show up, some tabac goes out, and that's that.

There is a clear "Two Rivers" ethnic look in the book. It's explicit in the text. This only works if they have been isolated a long time, or they were pretty homogenous even before they were isolated. Either way, they are a long-isolated populace, strong in the Old Blood of Manetheren (as Moiraine and the worldbook attests) while the regions more connected to Andor and the rest of the westlands simply aren't. This makes it clear that Jordan's intention that the people of the Two Rivers are basically the stock of Manetheren, which speaks very much against his imagining a lot of infusion of non-Manetheren blood. This is also why the Two Rivers has so many potential channelers -- Aes Sedai have rarely visited it in all the centuries since the fall of Manetheren precisely, if not earlier, precisely because it's a difficult place to reach.

ETA: As to the river, my guess is that the White River gets its name because it's full of rapids and dangerous to traverse, at least near the Two Rivers. 

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I get the "Two Rivers isn't homogenous" criticism. But it's not determinative to the success of the show. Rand isn't even going to meet Elaida in the first season, meaning he's going to know for sure he's not from the Two Rivers before he even sees her in season 2 (if he does).

A homogenous Two Rivers population where Rand stands out is this likely to have almost zero bearing on the show's story. And even in the books, this aspect was far from central to the author's "vision" of the series. If you were to list the top 100 aspects of what make WoT WoT, a homogeneous population for the Two Rivers wouldn't make the list. 

Yes, the Old Blood is mentioned. And then given what significance? Mat gets fresh memories to explain all his Old Tongue knowledge. For Egwene and Perrin, it never goes beyond almost understanding the Old Tongue. And there's some talk about the number of Novices the Two Rivers produces being linked to this, something I'm almost certain won't even make it to the screen.

And that's it. That is all the relevance the Two Rivers genetic makeup has to the books, and that will go down even further in the show. 

So any fans of the books for whom the show is ruined because this aspect of the books is not preserved are welcome to their horror. It is utterly ridiculous to claim this in any way affects the show's quality, or fidelity to RJ's vision.

The Wheel of Time has almost no concern for the racial make up of the Two Rivers, except to say Rand stands out a little, but not enough that most people didn't buy that his dark haired, light eyed adopted Andoran mom was his birth mom. And after the 4th book, a bunch of refugees come to the Two Rivers, and it's racial makeup is going to be completely cosmopolitan anyway. 

This is a nitpick of zero relevance to the show, it's quality or it's success.

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