The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[fionwe1987]

9 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Don't discount the influence of the Black Ajah over the centuries to turn the White Tower into what it became.  It was advantageous to the Shadow to have the Ajahs mistrusting each other, having stupid rules about deferring to those of higher power, etc, in order to make sure the Aes Sedai could be more easily manipulated.

That's a fair point, but I think RJ did want it to be that the utopian "Servants of All" had truly fallen. It's no coincidence that they live in a literal Ivory tower. And pretty much all of the Ajahs have either failed in their missions, or gotten corrupted in the process.

The most truly successful sisters are the unconventional ones who the bulk of the sisterhood wither dismisses or disapproves of for their straying from the orthodoxy. 

You're absolutely right that the Shadow contributed a lot to this, though. The same White Tower, in the 1000 years post the Breaking, had managed to unite a big chunk of the world in the Compact of Ten Nations, and they were advancing technologically at a great clip.

Then came the Trolloc Wars, and the Tower was absolutely instrumental in ending it (jealousy induced betrayal of Manetheren aside), but that's also when the Black Ajah becomes a thing, and the Three Oaths become a thing, partly under Ishamael's inducement, halving their lifespans, and starting to make them separate out from the regular populace.

Then the Aes Sedai are instrumental in setting up Artur Hawkwing's empire. They're his preferred governors and administrators. And again, Ishamael gets released and manipulates Hawkwing and Bonhwin into conflict.

When Hawkwing dies, the Aes Sedai again take charge to bring an end to the civil war that follows, and Deane Aryman is at the brink of setting up a new Compact of Nations when she mysteriously dies by "falling from a horse". 

Every time the Aes Sedai achieve anything of import or merit, the Shadow is able to strike from the...uh...shadows, and wreck it. It's definitely played a huge role in keeping the Aes Sedai mostly separate from the populace, remote, disconnect from reality, and unable to do the things that need to be done to keep the world safe. 

 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, horangi said:

I take it you havent worked in academia or the military.    Humiliation, abuse, and/or torture (and harebrained stupidity) is par for the course in the real world, even at the highest echelons of power and most prestigious universities.   You'd be surprised at how infantile the faculty at a given department in a Ivy League school can act, especially when it comes to basic social skills. Instead of deference to those with the most power, its deference to those with the most citations. 

Point taken ;-). That said - it is not only the scenario as such that vexes me but also its execution. Jordan is just a clumsy writer.

I mean, take another point later in the book. Moiraine sleeps at the inn where many other Aes Sedai also stay - when she is a fugitive. How does this make sense? And who is convinced by the fact that all other inns are apparently full? That's just a silly excuse. If I was a fugitive and at risk to be dragged back to Tar Valon by any Aes Sedai who might know or figure out that I was a fugitive then I'd find a way to avoid them - say, by hooking up with some local folk and staying with them. I do have magical powers, after all.

Also, Siun suddenly just shows up outside the inn where Moiraine happens to stay? How did she know where she was and how could Siun just leave the White Tower, too?

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, he doesn't. There's a geographic divide in terms of respect for the Aes Sedai. Only the Borderlanders truly respect them, and that's more historical, and based on interaction with those Aes Sedai who care about fighting the Dark One, and less about politics.

Okay, but they are still a powerful institution, right? And at their core they do not work for the Dark One nor do they want to lose the Last Battle.

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why? What rule says this must be done?

I'm saying that because I say it is bad writing to not actually depict crucial things. I just learned that Siuan 'concluded' that the Amyrlin was murdered because it was announced again that somebody died in their sleep when Siuan slept beneath the empty bed. That confirms that the woman was lying about that, apparently, but not necessarily about the death of the Amyrlin.

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, they didn't install a puppet. Since said replacement was also assassinated at their inducement, maybe you can save your criticism for once you know the facts rather than your naive understanding of events based on your admittedly half-baked reading of the series?

I'm writing about this stuff while listening to it, sort of like you folk talked about the series while it wasn't finished yet. The impression you get is that the new Amyrlin and her Keeper are more in accord with the policies of the Black Ajah. If that isn't the case then that's not the impression you get in that book.

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Which then would push trainees to Force themselves, which is a highly risky, near suicidal process. Above, you didn't want the Aes Sedai to be total morons. Here, you're proposing they create a learning system that will result in most of their initiates dying spectacular deaths that will also have collateral damage, which is about as moronic a system as I can think of. Please make up your mind. Do you want them to be less moronic or Darwin award winning dumdums?

From what I understand, the system is pretty cruel, anyway. Nobody seems to be properly encouraged to become an Aes Sedai ... but rather you are humiliated and broken. One can argue that the folks who end up working at the farms are the lucky ones, no?

A hierarchy based on power and the sensing of power certainly could be drilled into them from the start. Those who cannot sense things/haven't reached their potential yet are at the bottom and you slowly rise through the ranks as you senses and powers develop.

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why's that clear?

Because you are at Tar Valon to learn magic and become an Aes Sedai - you want to learn from your teachers and whoever else is there you can learn from.

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok. Height. Or beauty. Or body weight. All of those are much more genetically linked..all of them create unspoken heirarchies in our world. Show me that those hierarchies hold true in every interaction or every political conflict, and then we can criticize RJ for not writing his world that way. 

My main criticism was that Jordan had to have a conversation where an informal hierarchy was made explicit in conversation. That's bad writing, in my opinion. Looks and physical strengths, etc. do not create the kind of hierarchy Jordan tries to sell us here. You are not supposed to defer to folks who think they are taller, more beautiful, etc. than you. You can do that if you are afraid, or impressed, or want to suck up to somebody. But the idea here is that you sense rather objectively whose mojo is stronger and you accept this as a criteria for submission.

What would make sense, in my opinion, is hidden bullying based on the strength of the magical mojo ... but not an ugly system where folks are actually taught to accept and behave in this manner.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, take another point later in the book. Moiraine sleeps at the inn where many other Aes Sedai also stay - when she is a fugitive. How does this make sense? And who is convinced by the fact that all other inns are apparently full?

Inns should never be full? Even when a major political event is going on in the city?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just a silly excuse. If I was a fugitive and at risk to be dragged back to Tar Valon by any Aes Sedai who might know or figure out that I was a fugitive then I'd find a way to avoid them - say, by hooking up with some local folk and staying with them. I do have magical powers, after all.

No, this is just your stupidity. Moiraine using the Power to "stay with locals" will be what gives her away and gets the Aes Sedai's attention. What kind of "magic" is she supposed to do anyway?

Above that, you're plain ignoring that Moiraine is a noble, and has no clue at this stage in her life about how to live rough. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Siun suddenly just shows up outside the inn where Moiraine happens to stay? How did she know where she was and how could Siun just leave the White Tower, too?

Maybe if you read, you'll find out? Also, it's Siuan. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Okay, but they are still a powerful institution, right? And at their core they do not work for the Dark One nor do they want to lose the Last Battle.

The United States is a powerful institution that doesn't want civilization to end due to climate change, except for some of it's leaders who don't care. How's that going, so far?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm saying that because I say it is bad writing to not actually depict crucial things.

No, it really isn't. Backgrounding crucial events to show events unfolding from the perspective of your character of choice is a basic feature of PoV writing. You're seeing the world through Moiraine and Siuan's eyes. At this point, the concept of a group of sisters being able to secretly assassinate the Amyrlin is completely outside the conception of the world that Moiraine and Siuan have. Why the fuck would RJ shatter that right away by showing you exactly what happens?

Now, he could. In the main books, there are times we see the Shadow's string pulling simultaneously as the good guys go about clueless. At other times, we're forced into the relatively naive perspective of the main characters.

Both of these are choices the author has every right to employ based on his preference. Neither choice is good or bad, just different. There's no rule of writing that every major event must be depicted on screen. That's just you bellyaching because you want to justify your dislike of the series. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just learned that Siuan 'concluded' that the Amyrlin was murdered because it was announced again that somebody died in their sleep when Siuan slept beneath the empty bed. That confirms that the woman was lying about that, apparently, but not necessarily about the death of the Amyrlin.

Yes. Because the woman who announced the Amyrlin's death may just have found the body. With Myelin, the woman announced she was found dead on her bed. Which was plain untrue. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm writing about this stuff while listening to it, sort of like you folk talked about the series while it wasn't finished yet.

Except we had the sense to know that future events and reveals can color what we were reading. We theorized and asked questions, we didn't diss the series as trash based on incomplete information. If we did, those who knew more were happy to call us out for the moronic behavior. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression you get is that the new Amyrlin and her Keeper are more in accord with the policies of the Black Ajah. If that isn't the case then that's not the impression you get in that book.

What you get is that they replaced a Blue, who was looking to secretly find and protect the Dragon, with a Grey who had a very Red like view of men, and therefore likely wouldn't be ok with protecting the Dragon Reborn in the same way. That doesn't mean she's sympathetic to the Black. There are political factions dead set against the Dark One who still have views that are more useful to him. At times. That doesn't mean they're actually his puppets, does it?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From what I understand, the system is pretty cruel, anyway.

Pretty cruel is not the same as suicidal and mass-murdery, is it?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody seems to be properly encouraged to become an Aes Sedai ...

No idea why you'd say this. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

but rather you are humiliated and broken. One can argue that the folks who end up working at the farms are the lucky ones, no?

No. What is true is that you're indoctrinated into the Tower's ideology and worldview. Plenty of women are totally in accord with that view, and others, especially when they go back out in the world, come to disagree and work to change it.

And yeah, you can maybe argue working in a farm without access to your abilities is somehow lucky. About as lucky as being dismissed from the army during training, I guess?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A hierarchy based on power and the sensing of power certainly could be drilled into them from the start.

Except as I've told you, that will push them to force themselves to reach their potential sooner, and that is suicidal as well as likely to cause death to others, Aes Sedai included. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those who cannot sense things/haven't reached their potential yet are at the bottom and you slowly rise through the ranks as you senses and powers develop.

Why? Why must this be done? If you want a training program with that kind of insane rule, write your own novel. There's nothing stopping you, but there's no reason the author needs to do this a particular way. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because you are at Tar Valon to learn magic and become an Aes Sedai - you want to learn from your teachers and whoever else is there you can learn from.

And because humans are creatures ruled completely by logic and cannot get vain or biased it stupid, everything will be just fine!

You know, you're not proving Jordan is a bad writer. Only that you'd be atrocious at it. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My main criticism was that Jordan had to have a conversation where an informal hierarchy was made explicit in conversation. That's bad writing, in my opinion. Looks and physical strengths, etc. do not create the kind of hierarchy Jordan tries to sell us here.

Of course they do, in institutions where those things matter. What planet do you live on if you don't know this?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are not supposed to defer to folks who think they are taller, more beautiful, etc. than you.

You damn sure are if you're in a profession where success relies on those things. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You can do that if you are afraid, or impressed, or want to suck up to somebody. But the idea here is that you sense rather objectively whose mojo is stronger and you accept this as a criteria for submission.

And?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What would make sense, in my opinion, is hidden bullying based on the strength of the magical mojo ... but not an ugly system where folks are actually taught to accept and behave in this manner.

You're not arguing what makes "sense", you're arguing what you'd prefer. There's a distinction. If that's the system you prefer to explore, you can write it. But there's no rule of writing that says RJ is obliged to take your preferences and write by them.

[Guy Kilmore]

I am surprised to see that someone here is basically arguing that implicit bias isn't a thing and doesn't inform the hierarchies around us.  It makes the most sense to me that the deference to those stronger in the power is rooted in that implicit bias.  You can see it, as illustrated earlier that it comes more about when one gets enough training in the power to get the sense of one's strength.

[fionwe1987]

29 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I am surprised to see that someone here is basically arguing that implicit bias isn't a thing and doesn't inform the hierarchies around us.  It makes the most sense to me that the deference to those stronger in the power is rooted in that implicit bias.  You can see it, as illustrated earlier that it comes more about when one gets enough training in the power to get the sense of one's strength.

Yep. The only time it isn't implicit is when new Aes Sedai are told of the custom, by very reluctant Ajah Heads who only do so so their newest recruits don't spend their first months being given punishments from stronger sisters for mistakes they'd avoid if they knew. 

And it's pretty clear this is custom, not law. By law, an Aes Sedai cannot interfere in another's business. And any weaker sisters can simply avoid the company of more powerful ones and do whatever she wants. And if she's given a position of leadership by the Hall, that supercedes the customary deference due a stronger sister. 

[lacuna]

I can definitely see how some would view the hazing and bullying as a feature, not a bug (even though it isn't by modern standards), in a "if you're gonna mess around with magic, and possibly navigate the nest of snakes at court at some point, you need great big case-hardened ovaries, and a bit of tough love gives you that" sort of way.

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, lacuna said:

I can definitely see how some would view the hazing and bullying as a feature, not a bug (even though it isn't by modern standards), in a "if you're gonna mess around with magic, and possibly navigate the nest of snakes at court at some point, you need great big case-hardened ovaries, and a bit of tough love gives you that" sort of way.

Oh that's actually explicitly stated in the books. 

[Gertrude]

On 9/16/2021 at 3:01 PM, Myrddin said:

That painting looks spot on as a cover candidate. I had to check the back of the later books to make sure it wasn't actual WOT artwork.

Nah, the figures are too proportional.

[Lord Varys]

I'm kind of at a loss here. If the Aes Sedai are not really supposed to be the good guys ... what exactly are they doing in 'The New Spring' and prior to the rise of the Dragon Reborn in the series?

That isn't really said - they teach new recruits, they send out folks on missions, they advise the rulers of some of the nations, etc. But what is their overall purpose/goal as an institution if it is not (necessarily) the fight against the Dark One?

Insofar as braid-tugging is concerned - I was wrong. It is also a male thing as one of Lan's buddies proves in 'The New Spring'.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Inns should never be full? Even when a major political event is going on in the city?

It is a convenient and lazy excuse for a writer.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, this is just your stupidity. Moiraine using the Power to "stay with locals" will be what gives her away and gets the Aes Sedai's attention. What kind of "magic" is she supposed to do anyway?

How do I know? It is magic, she could come up with something like, you know, hypnotize people, seduce them, hang out with them, etc. Not to mention the fact that she has money enough to stay at an expensive inn. Perhaps this would also allow her to lodge with some poor fellow in a slum?

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Above that, you're plain ignoring that Moiraine is a noble, and has no clue at this stage in her life about how to live rough.

If that is really the case then the Aes Sedai training is a joke again. If they are not prepared for the kind of missions they might have to undertake as full sisters then the entire training is pointless.

But you are right - it looks like that, and that also reflects badly on the entire concept. No sane person would organize an institution that's training operatives in such a manner. That's like imagining Hogwarts as a place that does not prepare you for life in the wizarding world.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Maybe if you read, you'll find out? Also, it's Siuan. 

The point to explain that would have been then and there - because Moiraine should have been as flabbergasted about this development as I was.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The United States is a powerful institution that doesn't want civilization to end due to climate change, except for some of it's leaders who don't care. How's that going, so far?

Are powerful interest groups among the Aes Sedai interested in them behaving like morons? I don't think so. There cannot be that many Black Ajahs or else they would run the show. But you tell me they don't, so the good guys/well-meaning guys are still in the majority, meaning they shouldn't be evil morons.

As I ask above - if they are not really good guys, not interested in doing good, what else are they interested in? They do know that the Dark One is real, they do know the prophecies and all that.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, it really isn't. Backgrounding crucial events to show events unfolding from the perspective of your character of choice is a basic feature of PoV writing. You're seeing the world through Moiraine and Siuan's eyes. At this point, the concept of a group of sisters being able to secretly assassinate the Amyrlin is completely outside the conception of the world that Moiraine and Siuan have. Why the fuck would RJ shatter that right away by showing you exactly what happens?

It would have made the story more interesting ... especially since he does exactly that some chapters later. It is also kind of silly how these two geniuses conclude it must be Black Ajah. They have no proof that they even exist at that point, right? It could have been just politicking and mundane evil, no? Say, a cabal led by the new Amyrlin and her Keeper murdering the old one to take over?

And of course I express my own personal preferences here.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes. Because the woman who announced the Amyrlin's death may just have found the body. With Myelin, the woman announced she was found dead on her bed. Which was plain untrue.

Well, perhaps Siuan was so fast asleep that she didn't realize when Myelin went to bed, died, was found and taken elsewhere, and the bed was cleaned as to appear as if nobody had slept in there?

This is just a very bad setup.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Except we had the sense to know that future events and reveals can color what we were reading. We theorized and asked questions, we didn't diss the series as trash based on incomplete information. If we did, those who knew more were happy to call us out for the moronic behavior. 

I'm not under any obligation to only talk nicely about this series, am I? I will mention stuff I like if there is something to like. Honestly, I fear I will dislike the series more the more I learn about it.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

What you get is that they replaced a Blue, who was looking to secretly find and protect the Dragon, with a Grey who had a very Red like view of men, and therefore likely wouldn't be ok with protecting the Dragon Reborn in the same way. That doesn't mean she's sympathetic to the Black. There are political factions dead set against the Dark One who still have views that are more useful to him. At times. That doesn't mean they're actually his puppets, does it?

Depends. I'd assume the Black Ajah had a plan who to (help) get chosen as the new Amyrlin and her Keeper, no? Can you confirm that this is not the case?

It would be rather interesting to see why this Grey and this Red were chosen for those offices - but Jordan completely ignores that rather interesting political scenario in the story.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No. What is true is that you're indoctrinated into the Tower's ideology and worldview. Plenty of women are totally in accord with that view, and others, especially when they go back out in the world, come to disagree and work to change it.

They all seem to be the same to me. You can see it with Moiraine's interaction with Lan and his buddies. She is petty, childish and pissed when there are courageous men who do not ask for her magical assistance, etc. That's how Jordan portrays pretty much all Aes Sedai. The bad ones are simply more bad, but there are none who are grown-up, competent, self-confident people.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And yeah, you can maybe argue working in a farm without access to your abilities is somehow lucky. About as lucky as being dismissed from the army during training, I guess?

Well, it would mean that you are left alone, and are not forced by a random woman stopping you in a hallway to work for her when you don't want to and your legal superior didn't really task you with that, either. Sort of like Siuan is forced to work for that spy woman on the basis of just being there. That is just silly.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Except as I've told you, that will push them to force themselves to reach their potential sooner, and that is suicidal as well as likely to cause death to others, Aes Sedai included. 

You would have to back up such a claim with textual evidence. Without that, it just sounds like a nice and convenient theory to me. I'm not sure why they would have to behave in this suicidal manner - I certainly understand why they could, but they would not have to. Especially not the smarter ones who might be able to bide their time, save their strength and make all their bullies pay when the time is right.

[David Selig]

Getting back to the TV show, here is a new article with unofficial info about the filming locations about Season 2 - https://www.wotseries.com/2021/09/17/season-2-filming-locations-italy-and-more .

Apparently they are filming part of the season in Puglia (Southern Italy).

[Poobah]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm kind of at a loss here. If the Aes Sedai are not really supposed to be the good guys ... what exactly are they doing in 'The New Spring' and prior to the rise of the Dragon Reborn in the series?

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Are powerful interest groups among the Aes Sedai interested in them behaving like morons? I don't think so. There cannot be that many Black Ajahs or else they would run the show. But you tell me they don't, so the good guys/well-meaning guys are still in the majority, meaning they shouldn't be evil morons.

As I ask above - if they are not really good guys, not interested in doing good, what else are they interested in? They do know that the Dark One is real, they do know the prophecies and all that.

I know we have a spoiler warning on this thread but I might as well spoiler box this because it's got some major full series spoilers and I'm sure we have some tv show only people glancing at this.

Spoiler

I might as well offer some explanation though I don't really have the energy to get deep in an argument that's not actually gonna go anywhere:

The Aes Sedai a fallen organisation by the time we encounter them in the story. You could compare them to the Night's Watch or the Istari or whatever in that they had a noble goal long, long ago and have fallen in many ways from what they once were many millennia ago, and while they're doing their best to chug along on the strength of inertia and reputation they are mostly a shambles at this point. The pulling back of this curtain to reveal how contemptible they've become in comparison to what they once were and how they present themselves to be is a slow thing in the series, and this is perhaps an issue with reading a novel published 11th chronologically in isolation. As we're shown in New Spring with the example of the fall of Malkier at this point the Aes Sedai are more interested in preserving their image than actually being useful: they're mostly living lives of extreme privilege in their ivory tower, enjoying the benefits of the ruins of glory they're living upon, the prestige and respect (or at least fear) they still receive, the magic and power they can lord over others.

You set up a dichotomy of good vs evil to argue that they should be more competent, more dedicated to their theoretical goals of fighting the shadow but it's far from that simple, humans aren't like that, even when they aren't actual "joined a secret society of evil & sold my soul to the literal devil for promises of power or whatever" evil many of those you characterise as "good guys" like in theory right because surely if they aren't for the devil then they should be for good... are well just basic ordinary human evil - greedy, lazy, power hungry, selfish, etc. - they might think of themselves of good, righteous people who'd never dream of serving the Dark One but ultimately they're still a general mix of ordinary people with ordinary human flaws who happened to be born with the ability to do magic, with a little selection bias built in in that the White Tower long since stopped actively recruiting, so they're mostly only training the sort of people who actively seek power. They aren't beings or pure good, angelic figures sent to fight evil, they're just people at the end of the day (though let's note that even in Tolkien's world 4 out of the 5 literal angels sent to Middle Earth managed to fuck up to varying degrees so I'm not sure why you hold the Aes Sedai to higher standards when out of Tolkien's wizards only one actually stayed on mission while one went full on evil, one couldn't really be arsed with the whole Manichean struggle and settled for chilling out in the woods with his animal friends, and the other two disappeared completely).

I had a lengthy paragraph here about how real world politicians whose theoretical goal is to serve the people are almost all absolutely awful human beings and also about how the Vatican which is a fairly close parallel with the White Tower (and exists in a world of Good and Evil) has had all sorts of assassinations and political rivalries and whatnot. It was long and didn't really add much more than this summary though so just give me credit for it and let's move on.

In terms of the most spoileriffic thing I suppose and to address your comment that "There cannot be that many Black Ajahs or else they would run the show" well actually there are, and they kinda do. The Black Ajah has been festering secretly within the other Ajah for a couple of thousand years by the time of the main series, hidden in plain sight, growing and infiltrating deeper and deeper the whole time. From what I recall they had a hand in engineering the Three Oaths (which they are not bound by of course) which give them a significant layer of extra cover and ability to manipulate others given that they can still lie, and of course kill, while the whole world, including the other Aes Sedai assume that this is impossible, as well as in many major turning points that pushed the tower and the world in a downwards direction. By the time of the main series their parasitic existence within the other Ajah has advanced to the point where they're the single largest Ajah in the tower, at over 200 members and ~21% of all Aes Sedai with fingers in every pie, ears and prominent voices in every conversation, etc. and as such as an organisation they wield enormous influence over the tower and through their influence (and handy ability to just fucking murder anyone they want) have significantly reduced it from a pillar of strength and an organisation in service of the people of the world, into one that's mostly a shambolic mess struggling to maintain appearances where even good individuals like Siuan and Moiraine are hamstrung by people who should be their allies and share their goals because of political rivalries and pettiness. Many of the Aes Sedai who actually want to get anything done just end up leaving the tower and not returning in order to avoid all its bullshit as we see with Moiraine, Cadsuane, and the bloc she gathers to herself.

"evil morons"

This is definitely an issue with Jordan's writing and one which I hope the TV show addresses, though perhaps not in the way you think. What I mean by that is that I don't actually think that many of Jordan's villains are incompetent, but rather that Jordan was way over invested in mysteries and keeping things hidden. I think he maybe got too in to his parasocial hardcore fanbase engagement game of nerd-baiting with little hints and clues and keeping people obsessing over the books to actually want to give up too many answers about what the baddies are actually doing, so most of the time we only see them when our protagonists thwart them rather than when they succeed, and only learn about their successes and subtle manipulations way after the fact, usually after they're actually defeated which massively lessens the impact that revelation has on how most readers feel about their competence. Mesaana for instance seems almost invisible and barely present but is arguably one of the more successful Forsaken, sitting in the White Tower for the whole series under the guise of an Aes Sedai she presumably murdered and replaced early on. During which time she's commanding the Black Ajah and spinning a number of successful or partially successful schemes, from manipulating events to arrange the deposing a competent Amyrlin who was friendly to the Dragon and replacing her with one that was hostile and easily manipulated while also placing the Black Ajah's leader as her second in command and power behind the throne, and  arranging for Rand's kidnap and torture which nearly brings him within her grasp but at the very least seriously destabilises him and creates a large wedge between him and the Aes Sedai, to very nearly delivering the killing blow to the organisation that in theory is the most threat to the shadow as her ongoing manipulations of Elaida almost shatter the tower completely. It's actually a pretty good portfolio of villainy but most of it flies under the radar.

 

[felice]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

what is their overall purpose/goal as an institution if it is not (necessarily) the fight against the Dark One?

What is the USA's overall purpose/goal as an institution?

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If that is really the case then the Aes Sedai training is a joke again. If they are not prepared for the kind of missions they might have to undertake as full sisters then the entire training is pointless.

As I recall, Moiraine isn't officially supposed to be on an undercover mission; the Tower didn't judge her to be qualified for such work.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I ask above - if they are not really good guys, not interested in doing good, what else are they interested in? They do know that the Dark One is real, they do know the prophecies and all that.

But they don't know that's going to become relevant in their lifespans. As far as they're concerned, the Dark One is probably going to stay locked up in his prison for thousands more years. So they're just people, interested in what people are interested in.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also kind of silly how these two geniuses conclude it must be Black Ajah. They have no proof that they even exist at that point, right? It could have been just politicking and mundane evil, no?

No, it couldn't. The Aes Sedai can't lie, and can't kill with the Power. Myelin's death was lied about, and a whole bunch of Aes Sedai were murdered with the Power (the rest of the Aes Sedai could write them off as death by natural causes, but Siuan and Moiraine were aware of the connection between all the victims that made that statistically impossible).

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, perhaps Siuan was so fast asleep that she didn't realize when Myelin went to bed, died, was found and taken elsewhere, and the bed was cleaned as to appear as if nobody had slept in there?

[Gertrude]

To add to what Poobah outlined:

Spoiler

 

Yes, they are meant to be a shell of their former self and their reputation does a lot of heavy lifting and they sit around sniffing their own farts a lot.

What I take issue with (and Poobah touched on it) is the execution of this idea. Like a lot of Jordan's writing it's great on big ideas and worldbuilding, but the execution is not satisfying (don't @ me). You also mentioned the Game of Houses - another place where it's supposed to look ridiculous to outsiders (Rand), but he never actually showed any clever maneuvering by people playing the game. It's talked about a lot and you know that people who participate it is deadly serious (Thom is our voice of authority here) but it's never demonstrated. People only look smart because everyone else is struck dumb and then have fainting fits in the aftermath. I think a lot of the details of the story fall into this - great ideas, great overarching story, poor execution. This is why I am very excited for the show because I think part of the problem was pacing - things stalled out until pieces moved into place and in the meantime characters get stuck in place for too long until things can progress again. The show won't have this luxury. They will have to eliminate some of the details that bog it down and aren't really important to the larger story. 

So yeah, the story is what it is, and it's mostly good. I hope the show can make it better so that even people who quit the books in frustration can enjoy the whole thing.

the whole thing probably didn't need to be spoilered, but better safe than sorry.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, felice said:

What is the USA's overall purpose/goal as an institution?

I was under the impression the Aes Sedai were not a state as such. Tar Valon is, but their point/mission isn't to conquer a continent and grind the natives under their heel.

21 hours ago, felice said:

As I recall, Moiraine isn't officially supposed to be on an undercover mission; the Tower didn't judge her to be qualified for such work.

I'd expect that any full sister would be prepared for such a job - this is actually implied in the book when we later learn that Moiraine's education included knowing a lot about the laws and customs of the various states - something that only makes sense if the Aes Sedai are expected to be prepared to go there when their training is complete.

21 hours ago, felice said:

But they don't know that's going to become relevant in their lifespans. As far as they're concerned, the Dark One is probably going to stay locked up in his prison for thousands more years. So they're just people, interested in what people are interested in.

That makes sense to a point, but I really don't get how the decadence and decline of the White Tower affect what the institution wanted to do. They do not appear to be people who are after political power or wealth.

21 hours ago, felice said:

No, it couldn't. The Aes Sedai can't lie, and can't kill with the Power. Myelin's death was lied about, and a whole bunch of Aes Sedai were murdered with the Power (the rest of the Aes Sedai could write them off as death by natural causes, but Siuan and Moiraine were aware of the connection between all the victims that made that statistically impossible).

Well, I don't understand how all those mechanics work, but if the Blacks can get around the vows who is to say that all the other Aes Sedai are bound by them? And of course it is kind of ridiculous to assume that Siuan was fooled in the manner described above ... but it would still be a possibility.

As for the game of houses:

What I remember about that from the other books indicates that this is a complete joke insofar as execution is concerned. We hear that this game exist, and we hear that Thom is a great player ... but we never actually see anyone playing it doing something we could qualify as 'smart'. It is this tendency of just claiming that this and that is the case without actually showing it in a satisfying manner that makes those books not exactly great.

And I think that tendency can be seen in other things as well.

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't understand how all those mechanics work, but if the Blacks can get around the vows who is to say that all the other Aes Sedai are bound by them? And of course it is kind of ridiculous to assume that Siuan was fooled in the manner described above ... but it would still be a possibility.

As far as lying goes, the Aes Sedai learned to speak without revealing too much about something. This is repeated over and over again throughout the whole series. But they cannot say something that they know is an outright lie. (Think Liar Liar, "the pen is rrrrr... bluee!") They can only use the One Power in self defense or to defend their Warder or another sister. Of course, they can just stab someone in the back. The oath rod they use physically binds these oaths into them. It's revealed in a much later book how the Black Ajah remove their oaths.

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What I remember about that from the other books indicates that this is a complete joke insofar as execution is concerned. We hear that this game exist, and we hear that Thom is a great player ... but we never actually see anyone playing it doing something we could qualify as 'smart'. It is this tendency of just claiming that this and that is the case without actually showing it in a satisfying manner that makes those books not exactly great.

Let me ask you, what would you expect to see from this concept of "game of houses" in a story where the primary plot deals with saving the world from a literal evil entity?

[fionwe1987]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I was under the impression the Aes Sedai were not a state as such. Tar Valon is, but their point/mission isn't to conquer a continent and grind the natives under their heel.

It is definitely to conquer the continent. They just don’t want direct power. They want the rulers of the nations to follow their advice and run their lands. Hagemony is absolutely the goal. They were much more successful at it in the past, and are constantly trying to regain that level of control.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect that any full sister would be prepared for such a job - this is actually implied in the book when we later learn that Moiraine's education included knowing a lot about the laws and customs of the various states - something that only makes sense if the Aes Sedai are expected to be prepared to go there when their training is complete.

Yes, learning about the laws and customs of a nation clearly is the same as being prepared to go undercover there and live with the locals so no one can trace you. 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes sense to a point, but I really don't get how the decadence and decline of the White Tower affect what the institution wanted to do. They do not appear to be people who are after political power or wealth.

How are they not after political power? A running arc in this very book is the Hall’s attempt to place an Aes Sedai (Moiraine) as a reigning queen, in Cairhein, one of the largest and wealthies lands in the continent. If this is not a quest for political power, can you please explain what political power means, to you? 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't understand how all those mechanics work, but if the Blacks can get around the vows who is to say that all the other Aes Sedai are bound by them? And of course it is kind of ridiculous to assume that Siuan was fooled in the manner described above ... but it would still be a possibility.

You don’t understand, precisely. You’re quite woefully bad at understanding what’s going on, which is why Siuan’s incredibly logical conclusion is flying over your head.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the game of houses:

What I remember about that from the other books indicates that this is a complete joke insofar as execution is concerned. We hear that this game exist, and we hear that Thom is a great player ... but we never actually see anyone playing it doing something we could qualify as 'smart'. It is this tendency of just claiming that this and that is the case without actually showing it in a satisfying manner that makes those books not exactly great.

And I think that tendency can be seen in other things as well.

Or maybe, if one reads over, I dunno, 3 of the 14 books in the series, one would come across people actually playing this Game. But hey, its way easier to criticize something I haven’t even read with authoritative statements about what does and doesn’t happen. I guess if I had that level of hubris, I may not even realize how utterly idiotic the whole thing comes across as…

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

As far as lying goes, the Aes Sedai learned to speak without revealing too much about something. This is repeated over and over again throughout the whole series. But they cannot say something that they know is an outright lie. (Think Liar Liar, "the pen is rrrrr... bluee!") They can only use the One Power in self defense or to defend their Warder or another sister. Of course, they can just stab someone in the back. The oath rod they use physically binds these oaths into them. It's revealed in a much later book how the Black Ajah remove their oaths.

Oh, that I understand. I just wondered how, say, Moiraine could know for sure that other Aes Sedai could not have found a way to either avoid or break those vows without them having to rely on the Dark One for that. This is an artificial dichotomy ... and this is why an Aes Sedai being able to lie isn't, as such, proof that she is Black Ajah - it is just proof that there are Aes Sedai who can lie.

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Let me ask you, what would you expect to see from this concept of "game of houses" in a story where the primary plot deals with saving the world from a literal evil entity?

I'd expect it to be portrayed convincingly whenever it plays a crucial role in the plot. And it does play a role occasionally, no? Even I understand as much.

31 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is definitely to conquer the continent. They just don’t want direct power. They want the rulers of the nations to follow their advice and run their lands. Hagemony is absolutely the goal. They were much more successful at it in the past, and are constantly trying to regain that level of control.

If you say so. In the books I know I really didn't get that impression.

31 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, learning about the laws and customs of a nation clearly is the same as being prepared to go undercover there and live with the locals so no one can trace you. 

LOL, that clearly is part of the education of somebody who is going to interact with those foreign nations and their legal institutions and people. If you study International Law you are also likely to actually practice law internationally. You are not being prepared to practice law only on the local level.

And by the way, Moiraine later does go to the seedy places in another city and is very much prepared to do so. Obviously she is only stupid enough to go the most expensive inn when the plot requires her to be stupid - which seems to be a recurring pattern (pun intended) in that series.

31 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

How are they not after political power? A running arc in this very book is the Hall’s attempt to place an Aes Sedai (Moiraine) as a reigning queen, in Cairhein, one of the largest and wealthies lands in the continent. If this is not a quest for political power, can you please explain what political power means, to you?

That isn't really an arc, rather a notion that comes up once and leads nowhere. And it is more a rumor or an idea.

31 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Or maybe, if one reads over, I dunno, 3 of the 14 books in the series, one would come across people actually playing this Game. But hey, its way easier to criticize something I haven’t even read with authoritative statements about what does and doesn’t happen. I guess if I had that level of hubris, I may not even realize how utterly idiotic the whole thing comes across as…

You can always dazzle me with great exploits of the game of houses.

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, that I understand. I just wondered how, say, Moiraine could know for sure that other Aes Sedai could not have found a way to either avoid or break those vows without them having to rely on the Dark One for that. This is an artificial dichotomy ... and this is why an Aes Sedai being able to lie isn't, as such, proof that she is Black Ajah - it is just proof that there are Aes Sedai who can lie.

What's funny is that there are glimmers here of the solution to one of the cooler long running arcs in the main books, but your assumption that this is how it is is just plain illogical. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect it to be portrayed convincingly whenever it plays a crucial role in the plot. And it does play a role occasionally, no? Even I understand as much.

Then why not wait for where it does play a major role in the books and diss it's presentation then? I definitely think there's room for criticism of those arcs, but it's absurd coming from someone who hasn't even read them. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you say so. In the books I know I really didn't get that impression.

Then your reading comprehension is non-existent.

What do you think the Aes Sedai want, based on your impression? 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, that clearly is part of the education of somebody who is going to interact with those foreign nations and their legal institutions and people. If you study International Law you are also likely to actually practice law internationally. You are not being prepared to practice law only on the local level.

And international lawyers live with locals, or in seedy inns, now? Which international law firms have you interacted with, that you believe this to be true? 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And by the way, Moiraine later does go to the seedy places in another city and is very much prepared to do so. Obviously she is only stupid enough to go the most expensive inn when the plot requires her to be stupid - which seems to be a recurring pattern (pun intended) in that series.

Again, did you read the same books? Moiraine most certainly isn't prepared to go to those seedy inns, nearly gets kidnapped and has to use the Power openly and it nearly gives her away, all because she's so naive to the world that she thinks Siuan, who is solidly middle class in her outlook, would go to the most I'll kept and poorest neighborhoods to stay in. Moiraine is shown as a hopeless noble who views everything under the "luxury" class of inns as belonging to the same level, and you got "suave international spy who can fit in anywhere" from that? 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't really an arc, rather a notion that comes up once and leads nowhere. And it is more a rumor or an idea.

Do you know what those words mean?

The Hall straight up plans to install Moiraine on the throne, to the point of asking her straight out about it, ordering her to stay in the city, and makes enough moves that rival Cairhein nobles are prying into Moiraine's finances in an attempt to thwart the Hall's plans.

You keep whining the Game of Houses isn't shown, and yet are so blind you don't see the moves that are shown on the page?

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You can always dazzle me with great exploits of the game of houses.

Nope. You can read yourself. Otherwise fuck off from a discussion of the books and show by people who actually have done the work of reading the books.

No one here is obliged to summarize the books to convince you they're not the infantile trash you pronounce them to be without even reading them. If you've made up your mind before you've actually read the books, that's on you and your frankly teenager-ish desire to sound cool by dissing something you haven't even experienced. All you're showing us is that for all your claims of a wide fantasy reading experience that makes you too mature to enjoy WoT, you lack the basic ability to put things together from what you're reading. Maybe that's why WoT isn't for you?

[felice]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, that I understand. I just wondered how, say, Moiraine could know for sure that other Aes Sedai could not have found a way to either avoid or break those vows without them having to rely on the Dark One for that. This is an artificial dichotomy ... and this is why an Aes Sedai being able to lie isn't, as such, proof that she is Black Ajah - it is just proof that there are Aes Sedai who can lie.

Aes Sedai who have found a way to break their magical oaths against lying and murdering, and used that to discretely kill every member of a secret plot intended to ensure victory over the Dark One, but aren't Black Ajah? Well, I suppose it's not technically impossible, but personally I can forgive Siuan and Moiraine for jumping to the Black Ajah conclusion.

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

You keep whining the Game of Houses isn't shown, and yet are so blind you don't see the moves that are shown on the page?

I think the problem is that the "Game of Houses" is built up in the text to almost be a level above regular politics, and really it's just politics as usual that happens everywhere in every time period. I don't see any moves that would elevate it into god DAMN I did not see that move coming. The problem is, Jordan talked about how elaborate and tricky this dance is, but mostly it doesn't live up to they hype, so why make it a thing? And when moves are shown, they are usually unopposed, the person who is supposed to look good just looks good and gets praised.

What I do think world somewhat is the Cairhienen elevating it and showing the ridiculous heights it can reach and how silly it can get to the point that burning letters makes you a "master". That would be fine in isolation, but then you have others taking it seriously and it falls apart for me.

 

For instance, since we are on Westeros, GoT is heavy on the political intrigue. I think it's called the Game of Thrones once or twice in passing and it's not elevated into a big thing. It's just politics and power-plays as you would expect and it weaves into the story naturally and becomes part of it. Daes daemar becomes a separate thing and always feels inserted to achieve an effect. (I'm specifically thinking of an Elayne moment where there are gasps and fainting and it just seems so silly. Elayne gets praised and petted over her mastery of the Game and I'm just left rolling my eyes.)