The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Corvinus85]

Indeed, the Game of Houses is what various characters call politics. Actually, I'm not even sure the word 'politics' is uttered. (at least until Sanderson) That being said, we the game played at different levels or with different intricacies in different places. In the 2nd book we're given that in Cairhien the game is practically played at all levels of society, and it's practically an art form for the aristocracy. But the story is told from the perspective of backwater villagers who don't understand fuck all of what is going on, and stumble through thanks to the magical abilities Jordan gave them.

In Andor, the great houses play the game, but their politics tend to be somewhere between complete subtlety and forceful bluntness. A lot is seen in later books, especially. The Borderlanders are less about the Game, because the threat of the Shadow looms ever present, so they don't fuck around so much with courtroom intrigue and backstabbing. (most who do turn out to be Darkfriends)

 

[fionwe1987]

26 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I think the problem is that the "Game of Houses" is built up in the text to almost be a level above regular politics, and really it's just politics as usual that happens everywhere in every time period. I don't see any moves that would elevate it into god DAMN I did not see that move coming. The problem is, Jordan talked about how elaborate and tricky this dance is, but mostly it doesn't live up to they hype, so why make it a thing? And when moves are shown, they are usually unopposed, the person who is supposed to look good just looks good and gets praised.

What I do think world somewhat is the Cairhienen elevating it and showing the ridiculous heights it can reach and how silly it can get to the point that burning letters makes you a "master". That would be fine in isolation, but then you have others taking it seriously and it falls apart for me.

 

For instance, since we are on Westeros, GoT is heavy on the political intrigue. I think it's called the Game of Thrones once or twice in passing and it's not elevated into a big thing. It's just politics and power-plays as you would expect and it weaves into the story naturally and becomes part of it. Daes daemar becomes a separate thing and always feels inserted to achieve an effect. (I'm specifically thinking of an Elayne moment where there are gasps and fainting and it just seems so silly. Elayne gets praised and petted over her mastery of the Game and I'm just left rolling my eyes.)

I think, to me, the perspective only works when you see it from outside. It is just regular politics. But in a world where the Borderlands exist, where the Dark One exists, there is some awareness that politicking for it's own sake is a cancer, so we have perspective from people who view the politics a little from the "outside" and give it a whole other name, and so on.

But I never got the sense that it was extra-special politics. Just that it's the name for politics in that world. Some, like the Cairheinin, play it very cut-throat, and that's remarked upon as unusual. Lands like Andor and the Borderlands are considered more politically naive (which might explain whatever Elayne moment you're thinking of. I don't remember her being accounted a particular good player, just competant, at least as long as RJ was writing her, but I might just be remembering wrong). 

The books broadly view characters who play politics purely for power in a negative light, and that colors what you do get to see. And the more we delve into it, the more petty it seems.

I think what fails to make it work isn't that it's not particularly brilliant, when it is shown. It's that our characters, by dint of being focussed on the bigger picture, end up winning more often because the big picture stuff affects the outcome of these political conflicts.

Another issue is the plot armor most of the characters enjoy. So the effects of the Game of Houses almost never result in much real pain for the main characters. The Tower coup is one of the few situations where it isn't true, and consequently, that's where the politics works better, because the stakes feel more real.

In the rest of the cases, whether in Andor or Tear or  Cairhein, it feels like a sideshow because it IS a sideshow. Characters shake their head in disgust at Game of Thrones style politics, always shown in summary, then do something unexpected because their goals and history and morals are totally outside the system , and so they "win". That burning of the invitations thing is exactly that kind of thing (and I actually think that early book kind of political play is the worst in the series, actually. It works better later when at least it is believable that the likes of Rand and Egwene can cut through the existing political cross currents given the power they accrue). 

 

 

 

 

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

But I never got the sense that it was extra-special politics.

Then we had different expectations from how it was described. You're right, it was just politics, which is why making it a big deal with a name that was referenced often and people being described as a master rather than just good politicians made it seem artificial.

 

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(which might explain whatever Elayne moment you're thinking of. I don't remember her being accounted a particular good player, just competant, at least as long as RJ was writing her, but I might just be remembering wrong). 

Spoiler

Basically when she gives Andoran land to Cairhienin nobles to help her secure the Sun Throne. It's not a bad move, but it's not particularly great, either? I'm not sure how three Houses would convince the other Cairhienin Houses that this is the best move when those three are really the only ones that materially benefit? It's handwaved away as if it's a done deal.  Morgase also gushes over her brilliant daughter afterwards as Dyelin warns that those powerful nobles will have a claim to the Andor crown as well as the Cairheinin, but Elayne confidently dismisses it because she has vague plans to keep them weak. Basically the eye roll was for proud mama Morgase gushing like Elayne was the greatest queen Andor would ever have she was just that good at it. And yes, it was Sanderson.

 

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I think what fails to make it work isn't that it's not particularly brilliant, when it is shown. It's that our characters, by dint of being focussed on the bigger picture, end up winning more often because the big picture stuff affects the outcome of these political conflicts.

Exactly - our heroes make the right moves and just win. The pattern accounts for some hand-waving and acceptance and I can go along with that, but it gets a bit boring sometimes and, as you said, there are rarely consequences. So again, it feels artificial.

[David Selig]

This Elayne scene was peak Sanderson. Why bother writing a scene which convincingly demonstrates to the reader the skills a character is supposed to have when you can just have another character proclaim what a genius she is after she does something completely ordinary.

[fionwe1987]

Yeah I really wouldn't read much into Sanderson's writing of things like that.

Elayne's ok at politics, but that's underpinned by her having no real infrastructure for intelligence gathering. The better she gets at it, the better her moves become, but even then, she's shown to be a better administrator than politician, and her success to any extent at all lies in her biggest rival, Dyelin, deciding not to oppose her because she's her mom's friend. RJ always made it clear that Elayne's attempt to gain the throne would be over the moment Dyelin declared, because she'd easily get the vote from 10 Houses that is needed to become Queen.

Having her suddenly become a politics wunderkind is very much a Sandersonism. He seems unable to write characters who are not the best at what they do. And then provide very average examples of their supposed genius, or else do stuff that is cool and amazing, but in WoT, don't really fit with the world very well. 

In RJ's writing, Egwene is always shown to be the better politician, and that's because she spends every day learning from someone who was the Amyrlin for 10 years, and who also has the keys to the best intelligence network in the planet, and is a Dreamer/Dreamwalker, adding to her ability to glean information even more. 

And even she is shown to fail at times, because no one consistently gets it right always.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, felice said:

Aes Sedai who have found a way to break their magical oaths against lying and murdering, and used that to discretely kill every member of a secret plot intended to ensure victory over the Dark One, but aren't Black Ajah? Well, I suppose it's not technically impossible, but personally I can forgive Siuan and Moiraine for jumping to the Black Ajah conclusion.

I guess it is kind of far-fetched ... but then, the book doesn't really introduce or establish any background. Not the Aes Sedai as such nor the Ajah or the three vows nor the secret existence or abilities of the Black Ajah. In that kind of a limbo it is hardly strange if you wonder whether the far-reaching conclusions of the characters in the book are actually making sense.

After all, it is just speculation that the Amyrlin was murdered because of the whole prophecy thing. And, technically, the Red Ajah could do something similar if they thought the Amyrlin was doing something dangerous. I mean, they later do stage a coup and depose Siuan, right?

18 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think the problem is that the "Game of Houses" is built up in the text to almost be a level above regular politics, and really it's just politics as usual that happens everywhere in every time period. I don't see any moves that would elevate it into god DAMN I did not see that move coming. The problem is, Jordan talked about how elaborate and tricky this dance is, but mostly it doesn't live up to they hype, so why make it a thing? And when moves are shown, they are usually unopposed, the person who is supposed to look good just looks good and gets praised.

The whole 'game' aspect of it implies it is somewhat of an art form, something you have to be good at to win or succeed, etc.

But I don't think this is politics as such but rather political/court intrigue. It is not the game of taxes, the game of bureaucracy, or the game city council sessions.

And what I learned about this game in the first three books seemed to be all talk and no talent (or rather: depiction of talent). Unless I'm misremembering the whole thing always went somewhat along the lines of Thom suddenly popping up, knowing somebody in the city, establishing some connections and then the plot basically continues almost automatically from there.

[Corvinus85]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess it is kind of far-fetched ... but then, the book doesn't really introduce or establish any background. Not the Aes Sedai as such nor the Ajah or the three vows nor the secret existence or abilities of the Black Ajah. In that kind of a limbo it is hardly strange if you wonder whether the far-reaching conclusions of the characters in the book are actually making sense.

After all, it is just speculation that the Amyrlin was murdered because of the whole prophecy thing. And, technically, the Red Ajah could do something similar if they thought the Amyrlin was doing something dangerous. I mean, they later do stage a coup and depose Siuan, right?

I don't remember if New Spring mentions this, but it's heavily implied from other books that conventional means of murdering someone can be detected with the One Power. So stab someone, obvious, and you can't heal a corpse like you can a living person. Poison? Traces of the poison can be detected with the OP. So a healthy Aes Sedai appearing to die in her sleep points to murder with the OP, since you can just stop someone's heart with the OP. But you can only murder with the OP if you haven't taken or have broken the oaths.

The White Tower is an organization in decline, primarily because of its rigidly dogmatic ways. The Black Ajah is the only internal boogeyman that has existed mainly in rumor form for the Aes Sedai, with the occasional evidence popping up. I can see why you would wonder about other possibilities, but why would Moiraine and Siuan think of other possibilities?

[David Selig]

Huge news about the show - Dónal Finn To Play Mat Cauthon In Recasting On Amazon Series As Barney Harris Not Returning For Season 2

Recasting of a major character is pretty much always a major problem, not a good sign. The silver lining is that Mat's role isn't that big in the first two books and he's still an immature jerk there, so probably won't be the viewer's favourite in Season 1 either. But still...

[Corvinus85]

Well shit.

[Werthead]

58 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Huge news about the show - Dónal Finn To Play Mat Cauthon In Recasting On Amazon Series As Barney Harris Not Returning For Season 2

Recasting of a major character is pretty much always a major problem, not a good sign. The silver lining is that Mat's role isn't that big in the first two books and he's still an immature jerk there, so probably won't be the viewer's favourite in Season 1 either. But still...

We have no information on why the recasting took place. It could have been a personality conflict (although they did shoot the entire first season with him apparently without issue) but it could also have been health-related.

[fionwe1987]

Wow, that's pretty crazy coming after a whole season.

I'm wondering if this doesn't say good things about the show as a whole, or is this isolated?

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Wow, that's pretty crazy coming after a whole season.

I'm wondering if this doesn't say good things about the show as a whole, or is this isolated?

It doesn't say much of anything until we know the reason. So far there don't seem to be any issues elsewhere.

They recast Catelyn and Daenerys early during the production of Game of Thrones (both the actors' choice) and later recast the Mountain (twice!) after the original bailed to work on the Hobbit movies instead (where ironically he was replaced by CGI). Netflix recast the role of Caphaeus, one of the main characters on Sense8, between its first two seasons and it was fine (the actor apparently got into a row with the showrunner at the Season 2 table read and flounced off).

They recast the lead role in Spartacus after the original actor was diagnosed with a terminal illness, which was obviously a different and very sad state of affairs.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't remember if New Spring mentions this, but it's heavily implied from other books that conventional means of murdering someone can be detected with the One Power. So stab someone, obvious, and you can't heal a corpse like you can a living person. Poison? Traces of the poison can be detected with the OP. So a healthy Aes Sedai appearing to die in her sleep points to murder with the OP, since you can just stop someone's heart with the OP. But you can only murder with the OP if you haven't taken or have broken the oaths.

Our POVs did not actually investigate any corpses, so technically if the murderers had been doing the investigating they could have also murdered the Amyrlin and the others with conventional means pretending they died on natural causes. Not to mention that non-Aes Sedai (Novices, Accepted, servants, scribes, etc.) could have done the actual killing while the evil Aes Sedai could have just been the ones doing the grabbing and torturing.

Even the one announcing the death of the women could have been one who was simply lied to by folks who have not taken the vows if they had been the ones who actually found the corpses.

Such a scenario would also make sense considering that servants would be the ones expected to find the Amyrlin dead in her sleep. After all, they would be the ones fetching her tea, cleaning her bedchamber, etc.

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The White Tower is an organization in decline, primarily because of its rigidly dogmatic ways. The Black Ajah is the only internal boogeyman that has existed mainly in rumor form for the Aes Sedai, with the occasional evidence popping up. I can see why you would wonder about other possibilities, but why would Moiraine and Siuan think of other possibilities?

My memory was that the Black Ajah was basically just a boogeyman up until very shortly before the beginning of the main series. But regardless whether our girls have reason to believe the Black Ajah exist - just folks murdering people and doing shitty stuff isn't proof that they are behind that. It could have been something less conspiratorial and more mundane.

I'm through the book now - and basically all 'evidence' for the conspiracy we get are Siuan's speculations. It is pretty poor writing when all the reader gets is a character telling us the plot and there are no independent clues the reader can piece together on his or her own.

This is especially vexing with the far-flung conclusion that the Black Ajah were after the Dragon Reborn and didn't know that he had been only recently reborn - after all, there could be other reasons why they were after the people they killed. The evil woman at the end never actually got a chance to explain any of her motivations/goals.

And, quite frankly, it is ridiculous to assume that the Black Ajah tortured/questioned the Amyrlin before her death but subsequently not her seekers when they took them out. If they assumed that the Keeper made a prophecy before her death they would have wanted to know about that ... and they would and should assume that the Amyrlin told her seekers why she was sending them out. Siuan herself weirdly assumes that they would be in trouble if the Black Ajah were to question whatever seekers they find before they kill them ... but she doesn't assume that they will definitely do this. Rather she seems to hope/believe they are too stupid to do this.

For what it's worth, I started with the TEotW audio book after that, and I enjoy the atmosphere of the first chapters very much. It is reminiscent of LotR but so far it isn't bad.

By the way - I think Jordan sort of dropped the ball with all the Forsaken being sealed. Ishamael should have been free the entire time. That is pretty much what is implied in the Prologue. This idea of him being partially sealed/going back to prison once in a while isn't really that great an idea, especially since I don't understand how exactly this is supposed to work.

It could have worked much better if the Shadow had been so weakened by Lews Therin's victory, that even Ishamael couldn't rebuild its strength for a long, long time.

[Ran]

11 hours ago, Werthead said:

They recast Catelyn and Daenerys early during the production of Game of Thrones

These were changes done when only the pilot was filmed and was going to be reshot. This is actually pretty common in network television. 

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and later recast the Mountain

Extremely minor character who appeared in a single episode and had no dialog. Not comparable.

The Sense8 and the Spartacus examples are much more relevant: a leading role recast after one or more seasons. Riverdale has an example of an actor leaving after one season because he was on a Netflix show as well and was spread to thin, and opted to stick with the latter.

Barney Harris does not seem to be spread thin, however, looking at IMDB and recent news -- he's not in any other series or film in production. Which leaves creative differences, health issues, or something else. That something else could be as simple as his not having liked working on the production, his having liked the work but not the Czech Republic and feeling homesick, a family issue, personal conflicts on set or the producers not thinking he was working out, etc.

So, yeah, as you say, until we know more, there's not much to say this is "major", exactly. It's a blow to the production, in the sense that replacing a lead after just a season risks alienating fans who become attached to their performance, but it will probably be all right.

 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Our POVs did not actually investigate any corpses, so technically if the murderers had been doing the investigating they could have also murdered the Amyrlin and the others with conventional means pretending they died on natural causes. Not to mention that non-Aes Sedai (Novices, Accepted, servants, scribes, etc.) could have done the actual killing while the evil Aes Sedai could have just been the ones doing the grabbing and torturing.

Ok, but that's pretty convoluted. So someone murdered the Amyrlin conventionally, and someone else Delved her and lied that she died of natural causes?

Rather than having Aes Sedai who can both lie and use the Power as a weapon (ie, break two of the Oaths), we're now left with a secret cabal of murderous non-Aes Sedai, who can sneak through an Aes Sedai's wards and kill her, despite the fact that she can fry them to a crisp in an instant, and also have Aes Sedai who can lie, and choose to lie to cover for these murderers, but not use the Power as a weapon?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even the one announcing the death of the women could have been one who was simply lied to by folks who have not taken the vows if they had been the ones who actually found the corpses.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Such a scenario would also make sense considering that servants would be the ones expected to find the Amyrlin dead in her sleep. After all, they would be the ones fetching her tea, cleaning her bedchamber, etc.

And the Yellows who delved her body? That's standard procedure when an Aes Sedai dies, as Siuan tells Moiraine they did that for Myelin. You think they wouldn't delve their leader when she suddenly dies?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My memory was that the Black Ajah was basically just a boogeyman up until very shortly before the beginning of the main series. But regardless whether our girls have reason to believe the Black Ajah exist - just folks murdering people and doing shitty stuff isn't proof that they are behind that. It could have been something less conspiratorial and more mundane.

Like what? And if they can lie and violate the Oaths, to the Aes Sedai, they're Darkfriends. The Oaths are taken "under the Light and in my hope of salvation and rebirth". Wanting to violate them reveals a rejection of the Light. Even without the Oath Rod, violating such a strong Oath is anathema, and sign of someone gone over to the Shadow, which is why such Oaths aren't lightly made. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm through the book now - and basically all 'evidence' for the conspiracy we get are Siuan's speculations. It is pretty poor writing when all the reader gets is a character telling us the plot and there are no independent clues the reader can piece together on his or her own.

I pieced together that the Blacks were killing lucky men before Siuan does it on screen in the book. Because I'd read enough of the main series to know what clues to look for. Just because you didn't doesn't mean the clues aren't there. Siuan's conclusions are very logical, not some absurd conspiracy theory. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is especially vexing with the far-flung conclusion that the Black Ajah were after the Dragon Reborn and didn't know that he had been only recently reborn - after all, there could be other reasons why they were after the people they killed. The evil woman at the end never actually got a chance to explain any of her motivations/goals.

What other reasons? Why would they suddenly start killing lucky men (a sign of potential channeling) right after Tamra's murder, right after the murder of her hunters? I mean, you can come up with wild speculation, but they wouldn't be the simplest, most likely explanation, they'd be ridiculous theorizing with zero basis in facts. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, quite frankly, it is ridiculous to assume that the Black Ajah tortured/questioned the Amyrlin before her death but subsequently not her seekers when they took them out.

It is not. That only makes sense if the Black knew Tamra held something back. But if she simply managed to hold back the specifics of Gitaras Foretelling, they'd have no way of knowing he wasn't born years ago, and would see no reason to take the additional risk of kidnapping and torturing even more Aes Sedai for small return. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If they assumed that the Keeper made a prophecy before her death they would have wanted to know about that ... and they would and should assume that the Amyrlin told her seekers why she was sending them out.

Uh huh. And why would they want more info if they believe the Amyrlin already told them what they needed?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Siuan herself weirdly assumes that they would be in trouble if the Black Ajah were to question whatever seekers they find before they kill them ... but she doesn't assume that they will definitely do this. Rather she seems to hope/believe they are too stupid to do this.

No, she hopes Tamra never mentioned the age of the Dragon Reborn was so well known to her and her hunters. They knew the precise moment he was born, but if Tamra held that back, there's no reason for the Blacks to assume the Prophesy had to be that specific. And their actions show that they didn't, which is why she can deduce that they had no clue the age of the Dragon Reborn was known.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For what it's worth, I started with the TEotW audio book after that, and I enjoy the atmosphere of the first chapters very much. It is reminiscent of LotR but so far it isn't bad.

By the way - I think Jordan sort of dropped the ball with all the Forsaken being sealed. Ishamael should have been free the entire time. That is pretty much what is implied in the Prologue. This idea of him being partially sealed/going back to prison once in a while isn't really that great an idea, especially since I don't understand how exactly this is supposed to work.

It could have worked much better if the Shadow had been so weakened by Lews Therin's victory, that even Ishamael couldn't rebuild its strength for a long, long time.

Not quite sure what the grousing is about, here. Ishamael clearly was free right after the Breaking, and we know his half-sealing let's him out every thousand years or so. What's the issue here, except that you want to make up issues to "prove" that you're right about the books?

 

If he was completely free, doesn't matter how weak the Shadow is, he could have run the world for 3000 years given how much more powerful and knowledgeable he is. It makes no sense for him to be free all the time at all.

[Derfel Cadarn]

17 hours ago, David Selig said:

Huge news about the show - Dónal Finn To Play Mat Cauthon In Recasting On Amazon Series As Barney Harris Not Returning For Season 2

Recasting of a major character is pretty much always a major problem, not a good sign. The silver lining is that Mat's role isn't that big in the first two books and he's still an immature jerk there, so probably won't be the viewer's favourite in Season 1 either. But still...

To be fair, some might feel that Sanderson recast book Mat in The Gathering Storm

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

To be fair, some might feel that Sanderson recast book Mat in The Gathering Storm

If that's what happens with this recast, then the show is doomed. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok, but that's pretty convoluted. So someone murdered the Amyrlin conventionally, and someone else Delved her and lied that she died of natural causes?

Rather than having Aes Sedai who can both lie and use the Power as a weapon (ie, break two of the Oaths), we're now left with a secret cabal of murderous non-Aes Sedai, who can sneak through an Aes Sedai's wards and kill her, despite the fact that she can fry them to a crisp in an instant, and also have Aes Sedai who can lie, and choose to lie to cover for these murderers, but not use the Power as a weapon?

I'm just pointing out that Siuan - who just talks and has no firsthand information at all - really didn't masterfully deduce what was going on there.

And, of course, the information as given by the Aes Sedai who announced the death of the Amyrlin could have reached her without any Aes Sedai ever breaking her vows. The Amyrlin could have been murdered conventionally, folks who investigated her could have just remained silent (we have no reason to believe that all Aes Sedai do their independent investigations of corpses) while a non-Aes Sedai could have informed the Aes Sedai announcer.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And the Yellows who delved her body? That's standard procedure when an Aes Sedai dies, as Siuan tells Moiraine they did that for Myelin. You think they wouldn't delve their leader when she suddenly dies?

They could have been in on the plot. That would just be another secret cabal. If we have the Blacks we could just as well have another cabal, no?

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Like what? And if they can lie and violate the Oaths, to the Aes Sedai, they're Darkfriends. The Oaths are taken "under the Light and in my hope of salvation and rebirth". Wanting to violate them reveals a rejection of the Light. Even without the Oath Rod, violating such a strong Oath is anathema, and sign of someone gone over to the Shadow, which is why such Oaths aren't lightly made. 

I don't know how those oaths work, but I could imagine that Oath Rod not working properly, or there being another means how to undermine and thwart them.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I pieced together that the Blacks were killing lucky men before Siuan does it on screen in the book. Because I'd read enough of the main series to know what clues to look for. Just because you didn't doesn't mean the clues aren't there. Siuan's conclusions are very logical, not some absurd conspiracy theory.

The point is that the depiction of events is neither particularly complex nor particularly smart.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

What other reasons? Why would they suddenly start killing lucky men (a sign of potential channeling) right after Tamra's murder, right after the murder of her hunters? I mean, you can come up with wild speculation, but they wouldn't be the simplest, most likely explanation, they'd be ridiculous theorizing with zero basis in facts. 

We don't know they were killing 'lucky men'. That was Siuan's assumption - which isn't confirmed by an independent source. It is just a theory.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is not. That only makes sense if the Black knew Tamra held something back. But if she simply managed to hold back the specifics of Gitaras Foretelling, they'd have no way of knowing he wasn't born years ago, and would see no reason to take the additional risk of kidnapping and torturing even more Aes Sedai for small return. 

But why would they have questioned her then? Or didn't they? Well, we don't really know since all we have are Siuan's speculations. I guess perhaps they just killed her in her sleep, after all. Depending who the Blacks are they could have learned about the seekers without questioning the Amyrlin.

However, we then really don't know why they killed the Amyrlin at all. If they knew about the seekers and knew, quite independently of the foretelling, about the Dragon Reborn then all they needed to do was to track down the seekers and/or the Dragon Reborn ... and for that they wouldn't need to murder the Amyrlin.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Uh huh. And why would they want more info if they believe the Amyrlin already told them what they needed?

Because it is stupidity to assume you know everything and there is nothing you might not learn from an enemy you are about to kill? This is the kind of bad writing I'm talking about. And those Black Ajah are apparently not supposed to be stupid, are they? If they can hide in the White Tower for centuries and what not.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, she hopes Tamra never mentioned the age of the Dragon Reborn was so well known to her and her hunters. They knew the precise moment he was born, but if Tamra held that back, there's no reason for the Blacks to assume the Prophesy had to be that specific. And their actions show that they didn't, which is why she can deduce that they had no clue the age of the Dragon Reborn was known.

Actually, the prophecy doesn't really *say* the Dragon was reborn in that moment. That's already an interpretation. A very likely interpretation, but whether Gitara sort of was, in her mind, at the point in time where the Dragon was coming back or whether that was *that moment* was never clarified. She died during the prophecy, after all.

The idea that the Black Ajah murdering the seekers would not figure out that they were looking for an infant child is also kind of weird. After all, they would have to track them down, so if you or I were Black Ajah tracking them down we would follow their footstepts, check what they were doing (after all, we also want to find the Dragon Reborn, no?) and thus we would inevitably realize that they were looking for males of a rather specific age, not randomly lucky men.

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Not quite sure what the grousing is about, here. Ishamael clearly was free right after the Breaking, and we know his half-sealing let's him out every thousand years or so. What's the issue here, except that you want to make up issues to "prove" that you're right about the books?

I find the concept of 'half-sealed' Ishamael kind of weird because I don't understand how that's supposed to work. And in the Prologue there is no indication that the Dragon successfully sealed Ishamael along with the other Forsaken and the Dark One, nor is there any indication that Ishamael wasn't free to do what he wanted in general.

My impression is that Jordan later retconned the whole thing with the partially sealed idea. Did he even explain how this works? Is the guy magically drawn back into wherever he spent his time as 'sealed evil guy'? Was he compelled to go back to Shayol Ghul to sleep a couple of centuries?

And how does this fit with the state Aginor and the other guy are in when they awoke - who are supposed to be so old because they were resting so close to the edge of the sealed area. If Ishamael was 'half-free' should he then not be in a much worse state than the others?

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

If he was completely free, doesn't matter how weak the Shadow is, he could have run the world for 3000 years given how much more powerful and knowledgeable he is. It makes no sense for him to be free all the time at all.

I think it would have been easy to get around that - say, with the Dark One strongly sealed Ishamael could not really draw strongly on the True Power, and/or with the Dark One nearly go he could no longer protect him from the madness of the tained saidin, meaning Ishamael could have been mad for most of the time he was free. Hell, it could even have worked if he had died many times in those three thousand years, always being resurrected by the Dark One. From what I gather that would have been rather fitting considering the guy just wants to die and stay dead for all time.

The way it is we just as well have to ask why the hell he didn't do more to break the seals and destroy the world.

[Slurktan]

16 hours ago, Werthead said:

It doesn't say much of anything until we know the reason. So far there don't seem to be any issues elsewhere.

They recast Catelyn and Daenerys early during the production of Game of Thrones (both the actors' choice) and later recast the Mountain (twice!) after the original bailed to work on the Hobbit movies instead (where ironically he was replaced by CGI). Netflix recast the role of Caphaeus, one of the main characters on Sense8, between its first two seasons and it was fine (the actor apparently got into a row with the showrunner at the Season 2 table read and flounced off).

They recast the lead role in Spartacus after the original actor was diagnosed with a terminal illness, which was obviously a different and very sad state of affairs.

Odd that you compared the Mountain when GOT much more noticeably recast Daario who while not a pivotal role had quite a bit of screen time, almost comparable to what one would think Mat is going to get in season 1.

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm just pointing out that Siuan - who just talks and has no firsthand information at all - really didn't masterfully deduce what was going on there.

But she did. Her's are the parsimonious, logical conclusions. You're coming up with elaborate theories requiring multiple shadowy groups, none of which are known. She's not stupid just because she fails to share your idiocy.

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And, of course, the information as given by the Aes Sedai who announced the death of the Amyrlin could have reached her without any Aes Sedai ever breaking her vows. The Amyrlin could have been murdered conventionally, folks who investigated her could have just remained silent (we have no reason to believe that all Aes Sedai do their independent investigations of corpses) while a non-Aes Sedai could have informed the Aes Sedai announcer.

And the Aes Sedai who delved her remain silent because? Yet another conspiracy? The "pretend all deaths are natural" club? 

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They could have been in on the plot. That would just be another secret cabal. If we have the Blacks we could just as well have another cabal, no?

We could have 5 million cabals. By this yardstick, no deduction is possible, ever. Genius!

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I don't know how those oaths work, but I could imagine that Oath Rod not working properly, or there being another means how to undermine and thwart them.

The means don't matter. At this point, neither Siuan nor Moiraine know how the Black sisters violate the Oaths. That's immaterial to the conclusions though. That they can violate them is the critical information.

And if the Oath Rod regularly malfunctions so enough sisters to kidnap, torture and kill an Amyrlin are all randomly free of the Oaths, you next have to answer: how did they find each other? It's not like any honest Aes Sedai is going to keep this secret, and if she's dishonest enough to keep the malfunctioning secret, how would she advertise it to just the right group to form a non-Black cabal of Oath-free sisters?

You keep coming up with spectacularly stupid alternatives that don't hold up to two seconds of critical thought. That's not a sign of the author's writing being bad. It's a sign of you being dumb.

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The point is that the depiction of events is neither particularly complex nor particularly smart.

It's way more complex and smart than the shitty alternatives you're suggesting here.

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We don't know they were killing 'lucky men'. That was Siuan's assumption - which isn't confirmed by an independent source. It is just a theory.

Yep. It is just a theory. You're saying it's a dumb theory. You're going to need to come up with reasonable alternatives, then. But so far, you haven't come close to one. 

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But why would they have questioned her then? Or didn't they? Well, we don't really know since all we have are Siuan's speculations. I guess perhaps they just killed her in her sleep, after all. Depending who the Blacks are they could have learned about the seekers without questioning the Amyrlin.

Are we assuming torture brings out every single scrap of information? You do know the real life research on torture right? Especially one that by force had to be constrained to a few hours?

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However, we then really don't know why they killed the Amyrlin at all. If they knew about the seekers and knew, quite independently of the foretelling, about the Dragon Reborn then all they needed to do was to track down the seekers and/or the Dragon Reborn ... and for that they wouldn't need to murder the Amyrlin.

That's about the dumbest circular reasoning I've ever heard. Since you're unable to comprehend the basic course of events, let me lay it out for you in steps:

1.Gitara dies

2. There are immediate rumors claiming she had a Foretelling before she died. There have been rumors about her having Foretellings related to the Last Battle previously (and correctly, since that's how she basically caused the civil war in Andor- hardly a secret event)

3. Soon after this, Tamra starts inviting high ranking sisters to her office, which the Blacks would be able to observe

4. These sisters all soon leave Tar Valon, which is also something the Blacks can observe

That's quite enough for most humans to assume the Last Battle might be coming, which means the Dragon will be Reborn soon. I'm sure you may have sparkling theories consisting of multiple cabals of selectively Oath-free Aes Sedai and murderous cooks to give an alternate reading of events, but the most parsimonious explanation is what most people work with.

The Blacks then kidnap and hastily question her, hastily because the Amyrlin cannot disappear for long stretches of time without it arousing suspicion. One can imagine they asked stuff like "Has the Dragon been reborn", and since Tamra isn't exactly going to say yes right away, they spent what time they had getting confirmation.

They then hunted down and killed the sisters she was known to have met with. We know, from later events, that they killed quite a few senior sisters on mere suspicion of being involved, too, thus depriving the Aes Sedai of a lot of their most level headed and experienced sisters right around the Last Battle. 

They also spend time finding and hunting down male channelers and murdering them with the Power, and cover their tracks by also looping in some hardcore Red sisters into murdering suspected channelers (without using the Power). So when the whole thing comes out due to Siuan's efforts, the Red are left holding the bag, and we find out about all that in later books, which you'd know if you ever bothered to read them.

The issue seems to be that you want what are meant to be background events that our PoV characters can only deduce to be front and center. I can see the attraction of having it all laid out, but why is that good writing? Moiraine and Siuan would be uncertain about the exact events. And they would have to act based on deductions and theories. That's kind of the point. New Spring is meant to answer questions like "why didn't Siuan and Moiraine involve Leane in their hunt for the Dragon Reborn", and "why didn't Siuan just tell the Hall when Moiraine found him", and so on. 

They knew no one was safe, that any open involvement would get them killed in secret, and they didn't know who they could trust, since the fucking Mistress of Novices under Tamra turned out to be Black. So it remained a two woman conspiracy, and as we learn, that served them well. One of their best buds did turn out to be Black, and they only survived because they were so secretive, even Cadsuane, keeping a close eye on them, wasn't able to figure out what they were up to. 

 

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Because it is stupidity to assume you know everything and there is nothing you might not learn from an enemy you are about to kill? This is the kind of bad writing I'm talking about. And those Black Ajah are apparently not supposed to be stupid, are they? If they can hide in the White Tower for centuries and what not.

Of course you'd endlessly question every one of these women if you could. But they don't have that luxury, especially because most of them had warders. If multiple sisters and their warders just disappeared, that is a fucking giant beacon to everyone. If they're killed, they're dead, and that's that. Aes Sedai do die, and unless you know they were connected, you wouldn't have much reason to suspect that anything is amiss.

Beyond that, you're assuming Tamra was idiotic enough to divulge everything to her hunters. Why would she? 

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Actually, the prophecy doesn't really *say* the Dragon was reborn in that moment. That's already an interpretation. A very likely interpretation, but whether Gitara sort of was, in her mind, at the point in time where the Dragon was coming back or whether that was *that moment* was never clarified. She died during the prophecy, after all.

She literally says:

“I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

You do understand how tense works, right? And Aes Sedai have thousands of collected Prophesies and Foretellings that they've read. They know how it works, and there's a distinction between seeing something in the future and seeing something as it is happening. It couldn't be clearer in the text that Gitara is having a vision of what is happening at that exact moment. 

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The idea that the Black Ajah murdering the seekers would not figure out that they were looking for an infant child is also kind of weird. After all, they would have to track them down, so if you or I were Black Ajah tracking them down we would follow their footstepts, check what they were doing (after all, we also want to find the Dragon Reborn, no?) and thus we would inevitably realize that they were looking for males of a rather specific age, not randomly lucky men.

Tracking them down is one thing. Keeping them under constant surveillance is a whole other thing. You do get those aren't the same, right? You can have your agents report to you when they see Sister x in city Y, and track them down. But unless you somehow turned her Warder into your agent, you can't keep track of her every movement.

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I find the concept of 'half-sealed' Ishamael kind of weird because I don't understand how that's supposed to work.

Hmm. One wonders why that is. Do you expect explanations for everything to be front loaded in every book you read?

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And in the Prologue there is no indication that the Dragon successfully sealed Ishamael along with the other Forsaken and the Dark One, nor is there any indication that Ishamael wasn't free to do what he wanted in general.

No, there isn't. You only get that information later. So what? 

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My impression is that Jordan later retconned the whole thing with the partially sealed idea. Did he even explain how this works? Is the guy magically drawn back into wherever he spent his time as 'sealed evil guy'? Was he compelled to go back to Shayol Ghul to sleep a couple of centuries?

How's this a retcon? In the very first book, you see him free to confront Lews Therin after the Breaking. And you also see he's not free enough in the main timeline to go right up to Rand and kidnap him. This is just the continuity of events right from the start. 

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And how does this fit with the state Aginor and the other guy are in when they awoke - who are supposed to be so old because they were resting so close to the edge of the sealed area. If Ishamael was 'half-free' should he then not be in a much worse state than the others?

Are you thinking half-sealed means half his body was outside the seals and the other half inside? Seriously?

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I think it would have been easy to get around that - say, with the Dark One strongly sealed Ishamael could not really draw strongly on the True Power, and/or with the Dark One nearly go he could no longer protect him from the madness of the tained saidin, meaning Ishamael could have been mad for most of the time he was free. Hell, it could even have worked if he had died many times in those three thousand years, always being resurrected by the Dark One. From what I gather that would have been rather fitting considering the guy just wants to die and stay dead for all time.

Genius..so the Dark One is sealed away from reality, except he can somehow continually reincarnate people in the real world? How's he supposed to capture Ishamael's soul if he's unable to touch the Pattern?

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The way it is we just as well have to ask why the hell he didn't do more to break the seals and destroy the world.

But we won't have to ask that if he was fully free? Do you think even a little before you type these idiotic ideas?