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Daeron the Daring

Coldhands: Not just a black brother, but a skinchanger as well...

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So I really wanted to write a topic about this, while really not as well at the same time. Mostly because when someone begins to theorize about Jon's ressurection and future role, tinfoil appears at the corner of the room. 

But I read some older topics theorizing about Coldhands, and how he rides a great elk, and how a bunch of ravens follow and actually inform him about stuff. 

Describing him makes me think he is Bloodraven himself, assuming Coldhands is the one that commands the animals (the ravens and the elk) around himself. But Bloodraven is the other guy attached to the tree, supposedly the Three-Eyed Raven. So he can't be Coldhands. 

Let's assume here Coldhands was a black brother who happened to be a skinchanger on his own right as well. Just like Jon Snow. He is dead, or at least died at some point of his life, just as Jon Snow supposedly is as well. But his consciousness still lives in his body, altough he himself is dead. 

Could this mean the return of Jon's consciousness to his own body (as it is basically confirmed by Melisandre's vision) will be similar to Coldhands'? It doesn't mean his body will be in such a bad condition Coldhands' is (simply how Beric was almost himself after the first and instant ressurection, but later lost much more of himself, just as Catelyn did due to the time that passed between her clinical death and her ressurection).

We just don't know. It could be minutes, hours, but days as well. It could mean his body will not be in such a bad conditionafter his ressurrection sue to the small amount of time that just passed. And his consciousness? I assume it will be unharmed, as he will warg into Ghost, unlike Beric or Catelyn did, but something similar to what might have happened to Coldhands and how he 'survived'. 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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22 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                tinfoil appears at the corner of the room. 

:)

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
moving to the corner of the room

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I think Coldhands is probably resurrected in a manner not too dissimilar from Beric and Lady Stoneheart.  My guess is that their body is being animated by their "shadow" or by someone else's "shadow".  There's probably a connection between the magic that Melisandre used to summon the Shadow assassin and Coldhand's "resurrection".

Note the parallels here:

Quote

"But here ... this Storm's End is an old placeThere are spells woven into the stonesDark walls that no shadow can pass ... ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

"Shadow?"  Davos felt his flesh prickling.  "A shadow is a thing of darkness."  

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight.  There are no shadows in the dark.  Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire.  The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

Quote

"Why didn't he come with you?"  Meera gestured toward Gilly and her babe.  "They came with you, why not him?  Why didn't you bring him through this Black Gate too?"

"He ... he can't."

"Why not?"

"The Wall.  The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said.  There are spells woven into it ... old ones, and strongHe cannot pass beyond the Wall."

 

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5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Coldhands is probably resurrected in a manner not too dissimilar from Beric and Lady Stoneheart.  My guess is that their body is being animated by their "shadow" or by someone else's "shadow".  There's probably a connection between the magic that Melisandre used to summon the Shadow assassin and Coldhand's "resurrection".

Note the parallels here:

Good catch. Not sure how much it ruins my idea, as it would mean Jon can't pass the Wall anymore? I mean, that could be, but doesn't that stop certain things from happening that indeed should not be stopped? 

Or maybe not. 

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15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Good catch. Not sure how much it ruins my idea, as it would mean Jon can't pass the Wall anymore? I mean, that could be, but doesn't that stop certain things from happening that indeed should not be stopped? 

Or maybe not. 

I'm not sure.  I compared Coldhands to Beric and Stoneheart, but the one issue with my own comparison is that Beric and Stoneheart weren't exactly resurrected in the same manner.  

Whatever spark that brought Beric back to life was used in whole to bring Cat back.  Thoros refused to do it, because she was too far gone.  Beric sacrificed his entire life essence into Stoneheart.  So do these two different processes create the same type of entity?

Beric was more human than Stonehart.  Does that have to do with how far gone Cat was, or does it have to do with the type of magic that led to their resurrection?  

Was Beric's "shadow" put into Cat to bring her back?  Or did all that remain with Cat's body, her own shadow self?  In other words, the darkest part of our impulses.  The same part of Stannis' psyche that longed to kill his own brother, made into a magical being?

Part of me thinks that Beric may be more similar to Melisandre.  Two beings who's blood is inky black, and who apparently no longer need to eat or sleep.  If so, Coldhands may be more similar to Lady Stonheart, two corpses basically animated by either their "shadow" or by someone else's.

Melisandre could pass Storm End's walls.  But the shadow being that she created could not.

So if Jon is brought back would he be more like Beric or would he be more like Lady Stoneheart.  The answer to that question might determine whether Jon could pass through the Wall.

So if Melisandre is analagous to Beric, does Melisandre end up sacrificing her life essence to bring Jon back.  And if so, does Jon come back like Beric, or does he come back like Stoneheart?

Edited by Frey family reunion

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On 9/16/2021 at 12:23 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So if Jon is brought back would he be more like Beric or would he be more like Lady Stoneheart.  The answer to that question might determine whether Jon could pass through the Wall.

I recall that when Alyssane tired to fly her dragon past the wall it refused. and we know that cold hands couldn't pass the wall, going south at least. maybe things of fire can't go north, and things of ice can't go south of the wall. its like a magic border wall. if Jon came back part fire wight and also ice wight from jumping back into his body from ghost, he'd probably make a good mediator between the two sides being all of ice and fire. if the "wight" for each is the same thing, this shadow/lifeforce, it seems possible. the wall is of ice so it makes sense for the others to have the power to break it though. that would some irony, if it was their wall the whole time

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
sp

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34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Jon is brought back would he be more like Beric or would he be more like Lady Stoneheart.  The answer to that question might determine whether Jon could pass through the Wall.

I tend to believe it will be like Coldhands'. Especially since the mind/consciousness is supposed to be preserved, just like in the case of Coldhands. Not sure how open people are to the idea of him being a Skinchanger. 

You also picked up the idea of Melisandre being somewhat similar to Beric. Now I wonder if the recipe to immortality is death. 

25 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I recall that when Alyssane tired to fly her dragon past the wall it refused. and we know that cold hands couldn't pass the wall, going south at least. maybe things of fire can't go north, and things of ice can't go south of the wall. its like a magic border wall. if Jon came back part fire wight and also ice wight from jumping back into his body from ghost, he'd probably make a good mediator between the two sides being all of ice and fire. if the "wight" for each is the same thing, this shadow/lifeforce, it seems possible. the wall is of ice so it makes sense for the others to have the power to break it though. that would some irony, if it was their all the whole time

Logical argument, but really all depends on how Jon's situation will turn out. Also like your speculation about the Wall. 

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59 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I recall that when Alyssane tired to fly her dragon past the wall it refused. and we know that cold hands couldn't pass the wall, going south at least. maybe things of fire can't go north, and things of ice can't go south of the wall. its like a magic border wall. 

I really like that bit of speculation. Guess the only hiccup in it I really see is those wights the Night's Watch carried to Castle Black seemed to be just fine. Guess being carried and going of their own free will are two different things? 

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4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Guess being carried and going of their own free will are two different things?

I like this. Maybe a smuggler is needed? Or whatever animated the dead is on the south side. 
Davos smuggled Mel to Storms End and earlier in his career he smuggled people to Hardhome and maybe back?…hmmm now he’s going to skaggos to smuggle Rickon?

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Brandon Stark skinchanged someone way back in time, let's call this person Coldhands.

This Brandon-Coldhands ended up in the tree, and the CotF sustained him until his body grew too old, so he sent his mind back in time and skinchanged Coldhands again.

Brandon-Coldhands did this many times, gaining much knowledge, until he found out how to survive death itself, skinchanging his own body back to life.

He lured another greenseer into the tree. Those greenseers would go on to find replacements for themselves over many generations as Brandon-Coldhand would help lead the greenseers to the cave.

Now we have come full circle, and Brandon Stark is coming to the cave for "the first time" with the help of Brandon-Coldhands.

With the past soon secured, it will now be time for Brandon-Coldhands to leave the north and carry out his true goal.

edit: Ok not really, just an idea. There are countless ideas. But the three-eyed crow is Bran's fault.

Edited by Egged

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9 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So I really wanted to write a topic about this, while really not as well at the same time. Mostly because when someone begins to theorize about Jon's ressurection and future role, tinfoil appears at the corner of the room. 

But I read some older topics theorizing about Coldhands, and how he rides a great elk, and how a bunch of ravens follow and actually inform him about stuff. 

Describing him makes me think he is Bloodraven himself, assuming Coldhands is the one that commands the animals (the ravens and the elk) around himself. But Bloodraven is the other guy attached to the tree, supposedly the Three-Eyed Raven. So he can't be Coldhands. 

Let's assume here Coldhands was a black brother who happened to be a skinchanger on his own right as well. Just like Jon Snow. He is dead, or at least died at some point of his life, just as Jon Snow supposedly is as well. But his consciousness still lives in his body, altough he himself is dead. 

Could this mean the return of Jon's consciousness to his own body (as it is basically confirmed by Melisandre's vision) will be similar to Coldhands'? It doesn't mean his body will be in such a bad condition Coldhands' is (simply how Beric was almost himself after the first and instant ressurection, but later lost much more of himself, just as Catelyn did due to the time that passed between her clinical death and her ressurection).

We just don't know. It could be minutes, hours, but days as well. It could mean his body will not be in such a bad conditionafter his ressurrection sue to the small amount of time that just passed. And his consciousness? I assume it will be unharmed, as he will warg into Ghost, unlike Beric or Catelyn did, but something similar to what might have happened to Coldhands and how he 'survived'. 

A body that has as many vent holes as Jon's is not going to be in good shape. Though ice undead do not need to be in good shape.  But sure, Jon will become Coldhands. His body will be dead but it can last a long time  as long he never leaves the north. 

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13 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Guess being carried and going of their own free will are two different things? 

I've been considering this a fact for a long time in my headcanon. 

 

8 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I like this. Maybe a smuggler is needed? Or whatever animated the dead is on the south side. 
Davos smuggled Mel to Storms End and earlier in his career he smuggled people to Hardhome and maybe back?…hmmm now he’s going to skaggos to smuggle Rickon?

Whatever animated the dead can't be on the souther side of the Wall. It'd mean other dead people south if the Wall would arise as well. That never happened, not even in the case of the dead rangers. They found them north of the Wall with blue eyes, meaning they've been turned already, just didn't yet move (intentionally or unintentionally, I donno).

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10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I've been considering this a fact for a long time in my headcanon. 

The only trouble I have with that in my head is it really seems a small distinction. I wonder if the wights being carried to Castle Black was written before Martin solidified the wall being a mystical barrier to them.

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3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

The only trouble I have with that in my head is it really seems a small distinction. I wonder if the wights being carried to Castle Black was written before Martin solidified the wall being a mystical barrier to them.

It doesn't to me. I can imagine them not being able to pass through the Wall, but being able to get trough if someone elde brings them through, sithout them ever lifting a finger. Given George's nature, I think it was rather planned out than a coincidence that later would fill in such a logical way into this idea. 

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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It doesn't to me. I can imagine them not being able to pass through the Wall, but being able to get trough if someone elde brings them through, sithout them ever lifting a finger. Given George's nature, I think it was rather planned out than a coincidence that later would fill in such a logical way into this idea. 

If that is the case I wonder how much Coldhands would've been tempted to have Sam drag him through? He probably had more calling to whatever he's doing up north now than he would to the Night's Watch. 

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8 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

If that is the case I wonder how much Coldhands would've been tempted to have Sam drag him through? He probably had more calling to whatever he's doing up north now than he would to the Night's Watch. 

Not sure if Coldhands has any temptation by now, and if he knows that it might work. Or it might not even work. The dead brought trough might have been in a phase when their bodies weren't entirely taken over or something. (Tbh, It's hard to explain how magic works) Or their unconsciousness (which wasn't just an act) was entirely real. Who knows for sure. 

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Coldhands is a black brother whose watch did not end with his death.  He's not Bloodraven but one of the loyal Raven's Teeth who followed him to the Wall.  He served Bloodraven during his war to protect the Targaryens, served him again at the Wall, and serves him still after death.  How's that for loyalty.  

 

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On 9/17/2021 at 12:17 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Whatever animated the dead can't be on the souther side of the Wall.

I agree and after they were placed in the storerooms, perhaps what reanimated them passed over the Wall to them.   "A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal."    

What is a skirling wind?  For that matter, what is a skirl?  Definition of skirl is: skirl:  (of bagpipes) make a shrill, wailing sound, also described as a shriek or shrieking.  Was the wind shrieking with magic when it blew on the South side of the Wall? 

In George's 1993 letter to his publishers the Others are said to 'ride down on the winds of winter'.  Did something ride down the skirling wind to reanimate the two wights on the wrong side of the Wall?      

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On 9/17/2021 at 2:56 PM, Lord Lannister said:

If that is the case I wonder how much Coldhands would've been tempted to have Sam drag him through? He probably had more calling to whatever he's doing up north now than he would to the Night's Watch. 

I don't see that as CH's mission was to get to Bran and the Reeds and if he couldn't cross the magic, and he couldn't, he would wait. So that's what he did.

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