The Wisdom of Crowds by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[SeanF]

23 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Enjoyed the book. It was no LAOK but was still good. Still gutted about Orso.

I'm not a fan of shocking twists coming out of nowhere so I was quite happy with the Zuri/Glokta etc. reveals. It was decently hinted at in book 1 that Zuri was an Eater and made rather obvious that she was Ishri by the end of book 2. It was also obvious by the end of book 2 that Glokta and Pike were working together.

Some stuff was just a bit too obvious though and took any tension away from the storyline i.e. Rikke's falling out with the Nail and Isern as well as Corleth being Calder's spy were all just so obvious right from the get go.

Broad was proven to be the dullest character that Abercrombie has created. Maybe the author even realised this 'coz it felt like Broad was given less page time in this book. Judge was also rubbish as a villain. The portion of the book with Risinau, Judge, the people's court, the denunciations etc. became repetitive and very tedious.

Since there were people questioning it upthread, it does make sense for Rikke to be the owl - owl symbolism is commonly associated with magic, mystery, the moon. Makes more sense for Rikke to be the owl than Broad just because of his glasses.

I'm also not sure how there can be any doubt whatsoever over the identity of the blonde haired women in Rikke's vision.  It's very obvious that it's Hildi. Both are going to be Bayaz's instruments to go after the North and the Union. Calder's son and Hildi also have their own personal reasons to want vengeance on Rikke, Leo and Savine.

I found Judge rather good fun as a villain - plainly mad as a box of frogs.

[swirlingdown]

Really expected Bayaz to put up more of a fight. Over the whole trilogy he and Sulfur just made some vague threats a couple times but did almost nothing to support the old regime of the Union (or Calder, for that matter). So far it looks like all his power over the Union consisted of:

a) getting some important person to take a loan from Valint and Balk

b) threatening said person that Sulfur would kill them if they don't do Bayaz's bidding in return

I wonder what the point of engineering the whole Great Change even was. After all, Glokta's main objective seems to have been to kill Sulfur and to destroy Valint and Balk. I don't see how the whole revolution thing was necessary for that. It's not like Sulfur was hiding - he was regularly present at the meetings of the Solar Society, for instance. Why couldn't Glokta just have the Eaters assassinate him there and then have his practicals ransack Valint and Balk while still being the Arch Lector?

[oberonus]

liked the book overall, and I agree, sometimes just having a competent build up twist is better than a surprise twist.

 

I must say I was surprised to see how many eaters were working with Glokta, I thought it would only be  Zuri, since I thought Bayaz killed almost all of the eaters in the first trilogy.

 

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, swirlingdown said:

Really expected Bayaz to put up more of a fight. Over the whole trilogy he and Sulfur just made some vague threats a couple times but did almost nothing to support the old regime of the Union (or Calder, for that matter). So far it looks like all his power over the Union consisted of:

a) getting some important person to take a loan from Valint and Balk

b) threatening said person that Sulfur would kill them if they don't do Bayaz's bidding in return

I wonder what the point of engineering the whole Great Change even was. After all, Glokta's main objective seems to have been to kill Sulfur and to destroy Valint and Balk. I don't see how the whole revolution thing was necessary for that. It's not like Sulfur was hiding - he was regularly present at the meetings of the Solar Society, for instance. Why couldn't Glokta just have the Eaters assassinate him there and then have his practicals ransack Valint and Balk while still being the Arch Lector?

Glokta still greatly feared Bayaz. He probably believes Bayaz could just obliterate the Inquisition if he moved openly against him, and manipulate the population by making himself the hero that took down Old Sticks and his evil Inquisition. So many times people remind themselves that Bayaz destroyed half the Agriont and killed all of the Eaters that came at him. So Glokta needed the people to rise. If the people decided enough was enough, Bayaz would only paint himself as a villain even further if he went on a mass murder rampage.

[briantw]

22 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Glokta still greatly feared Bayaz. He probably believes Bayaz could just obliterate the Inquisition if he moved openly against him, and manipulate the population by making himself the hero that took down Old Sticks and his evil Inquisition. So many times people remind themselves that Bayaz destroyed half the Agriont and killed all of the Eaters that came at him. So Glokta needed the people to rise. If the people decided enough was enough, Bayaz would only paint himself as a villain even further if he went on a mass murder rampage.

It also would have been difficult from a political standpoint for the Inquisition to move against Valint and Balk when they were such a major part of the Adua economy.  The revolution made it politically advantageous to support going against the banks, but the nobles likely wouldn't have stood for it while they were all still making money by the cartload.

[Consigliere]

5 hours ago, swirlingdown said:

Really expected Bayaz to put up more of a fight. Over the whole trilogy he and Sulfur just made some vague threats a couple times but did almost nothing to support the old regime of the Union (or Calder, for that matter). So far it looks like all his power over the Union consisted of:

a) getting some important person to take a loan from Valint and Balk

b) threatening said person that Sulfur would kill them if they don't do Bayaz's bidding in return

 

I agree on the point that Bayaz was conspicuous by his absence. That kinda bugged me too. It seemed like Bayaz just passively sat back and allowed events to unfold or he was simply powerless to do anything about it which seems unlikely given all we know. Beyond making some veiled threats, Sulfur was pretty useless too at actually getting anything done.

 

5 hours ago, swirlingdown said:

I wonder what the point of engineering the whole Great Change even was. After all, Glokta's main objective seems to have been to kill Sulfur and to destroy Valint and Balk. I don't see how the whole revolution thing was necessary for that. It's not like Sulfur was hiding - he was regularly present at the meetings of the Solar Society, for instance. Why couldn't Glokta just have the Eaters assassinate him there and then have his practicals ransack Valint and Balk while still being the Arch Lector?

In addition to what others have mentioned, the Great Change also provided cover for the real intention of the architects of the uprising. Given that the Union has been having trouble with the peasantry for decades, Bayaz probably thought this is just another nuisance that would peter out. And since the Breakers and Burners were breaking and burning everything, it would not have been immediately clear that Valint and Balk was the true target.

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

I agree on the point that Bayaz was conspicuous by his absence. That kinda bugged me too. It seemed like Bayaz just passively sat back and allowed events to unfold or he was simply powerless to do anything about it which seems unlikely given all we know. Beyond making some veiled threats, Sulfur was pretty useless too at actually getting anything done.

The story being set during a violent revolution somewhat minimized any action that Bayaz could realistically take.  He's at his best when he can silently manipulate people behind the scenes.  Most of the nobles don't even realize that he's the real power in the Union, and that's despite the fact that they know he destroyed part of the capital with magic during the events of the first trilogy.  We even have Savine's POV telling us that she never really believed in magic even though she has firsthand accounts from her parents who actually saw it.  Similarly, Orso never felt threatened by Bayaz despite his father's warnings not to cross him.

That's Bayaz's true power.  The only people who know what he's capable of are the ones who have the most power, and so he pulls their strings and everyone else dances to his tune while despising people like Glokta and Jezal rather than the old wizard who sits in a fancy chair at meetings when he bothers to attend at all.

[A True Kaniggit]

On 9/24/2021 at 9:52 AM, Consigliere said:

Since there were people questioning it upthread, it does make sense for Rikke to be the owl - owl symbolism is commonly associated with magic, mystery, the moon. Makes more sense for Rikke to be the owl than Broad just because of his glasses.

I can’t agree with this. 
 

The Sun = Union? OK. It’s their emblem. 
 

Wolf = Stour? OK.  He’s known as the Great Wolf. 
 

Lion = Leo? OK. He’s called the Young Lion. 
 

Lamb = Orso? OK. The common people call him a lamb. 
 

Rikke = Owl? Negative. No inworld references at all that I can recall that she was ever compared to an owl. Were there any I just forgot about?

[Consigliere]

8 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The Sun = Union? OK. It’s their emblem. 

The Sun = Uffrith. 

 

8 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Wolf = Stour? OK.  He’s known as the Great Wolf. 
 

Lion = Leo? OK. He’s called the Young Lion. 
 

Lamb = Orso? OK. The common people call him a lamb. 
 

Rikke = Owl? Negative. No inworld references at all that I can recall that she was ever compared to an owl. Were there any I just forgot about?

The owl bit was always a bit more cryptic because nobody was actually called an owl as far as I can remember. And the only time anyone was even compared to an owl was when Rikke said in reference to Isern's father '‘He was mad as a sack of owls, you’re always saying so". If we go by your logic of requiring an in world reference comparing someone to or explicitly referring to them as an owl then nobody fits that criteria. Symbolically it makes sense for Rikke to be the owl. 

[mix_masta_micah]

Just finished and enjoyed it quite a bit despite it not feeling like a 'complete' story. I guess the previous trilogy was open ended as well but this one had more of a 'to be constinued' feel to it than the other. 

My major niggles, and it's probably just me, but I find the modernization bits to clash greatly with the medieval-like battles and armor that the Union and most definitely the North seem to wear. I find the industrialization really clashes with that of the North because it seems the settings are taking place in entirely different time periods. That takes me out of the story a bit and the thought of trains running around in the North seems pretty odd considering the lack of accompanying industrialization. It just feels somewhat forced when you have everyone running around with swords still but a lot of other aspects of life are well progressed from swords. 

Idk. Maybe I'm just not learned enough about actual technological progress in history. 

[polishgenius]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:01 PM, Werthead said:

The idea of the revolutionaries achieving their goal and not having any firm policy ideas or plans for afterwards was a bit odd, as revolutionaries usually do have ideas and plans and set them in motion.

 

In fairness, though, this was a fake revolution in the truest sense, manipulated into being by Glokta, rather than a natural consequence of the social tensions pushing planners to breaking point, even if those social tension was there. Hell, Glokta even admits that it didn't go according to plan - he put Risinau etc in their positions but obviously they weren't really ready for that. 

That was the section of the book I enjoyed least though, partly coz it got a bit repetitive but partly just because, for purely personal family/nation history reasons, I've never particularly taken to Stalinist cruelties being used as a joke. I'm not saying that Joe (or others) shouldn't do it, I'm perfectly alright with black comedy in other contexts, it's just not my bag. 

 

 

Mostly enjoyed the book other than that, but ending with the prophecy did kinda annoy me. 

[A True Kaniggit]

13 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

for purely personal family/nation history reasons, I've never particularly taken to Stalinist cruelties being used as a joke.

Dang it.

There goes my much anticipated (by me) Joe Abercrombie is Joseph Stalin reincarnated joke.

[polishgenius]

Nah, jokes about one of the most cruel men in history, and also Joseph Stalin, are fine, you're good.




 

[A True Kaniggit]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

Nah, jokes about one of the most cruel men in history, and also Joseph Stalin, are fine, you're good.




 

I see what you did there.

And I approve.

 

RIP Orso 

[ljkeane]

It took me a while to finish the book because it's become a bit obvious at this stage that Abercrombie's books are going to end badly for characters the readers like. I basically read the whole book just waiting for Orso to get betrayed and die. A decent read in the end but I'm not entirely sure I'd say I enjoyed it.

[Corvinus85]

And we still don't know if Jezal's death was of natural causes or murder.

[briantw]

16 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

And we still don't know if Jezal's death was of natural causes or murder.

Murder seems to make the most sense.  No one respected or liked Orso, and he was the perfect person for the commoners to cast blame on for all the hardships in their lives because he had a reputation as a drunken, spoiled fool who was undeserving of the crown.  I also don't think that Jezal would have been as easily manipulated into fanning the fires of rebellion the way Orso was.  

[Derfel Cadarn]

9 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

And we still don't know if Jezal's death was of natural causes or murder.

Maybe he was even in on it.

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Maybe he was even in on it.

That would be something from Jezal. But I'm not sure Glokta would have been behind it. He said he worked with Jezal to curb Bayaz's influence. While Orso is a figure easy to hate, it was during Jezal's reign that all those wars were lost, all that debt was placed on the people. He was just as hated, and if Jezal was in on it, he could have simply done a piss-poor job of curbing the rise of the Breakers all the way until he is forced to abdicate. And it would be a cruel thing for Jezal to leave his son to deal with what was coming. 

[Consigliere]

I think Jezal just died of natural causes. If Joe wanted the readers to suspect otherwise, he would have either strongly hinted at it or explicitly revealed it. Doesn't seem like his style to just leave something like that unresolved for two books if Jezal's death was a result of something other than natural causes.