The Wisdom of Crowds by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[SeanF]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:41 PM, ljkeane said:

It took me a while to finish the book because it's become a bit obvious at this stage that Abercrombie's books are going to end badly for characters the readers like. I basically read the whole book just waiting for Orso to get betrayed and die. A decent read in the end but I'm not entirely sure I'd say I enjoyed it.

Sadly, Orso talked his way into getting killed, by telling Leo at dinner in Book 2, that he'd have to kill him if he seized power.  Leo didn't want to believe it at the time.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Is it Euz or Glustrod that’s slated to return? Also, is it confirmed that if the door opens again, those with magic already on this side, like Bayaz, will be significantly stronger.

[Consigliere]

9 hours ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

Is it Euz or Glustrod that’s slated to return? 

Could be either or equally it could be Juvens or Kanedias. Juvens would be interesting since it was strongly implied in the first trilogy that Bayaz orchestrated his death. 

 

9 hours ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

Also, is it confirmed that if the door opens again, those with magic already on this side, like Bayaz, will be significantly stronger.

Presumably if the gates are open then the magi and eaters like Ishri and Shenkt who are trained in high art would be more powerful. But if the gates have broken then there would be the small issue of the world crawling with demons. More likely is that the seed was used to summon someone from the other side instead of the gates being broken/opened. 

[Garlan the Gallant]

11 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Could be either or equally it could be Juvens or Kanedias. Juvens would be interesting since it was strongly implied in the first trilogy that Bayaz orchestrated his death. 

 

Presumably if the gates are open then the magi and eaters like Ishri and Shenkt who are trained in high art would be more powerful. But if the gates have broken then there would be the small issue of the world crawling with demons. More likely is that the seed was used to summon someone from the other side instead of the gates being broken/opened. 

How can it be Juvens or Kanedias? They are both dead. The only reason, I figured, it might be Glustrod, instead of Euz is because Glustrod screwed up with the Seed and (maybe?) got sucked in rather than being destroyed. I guess what I am saying is I don't think there was a body to confirm the death. 

Also, the number of people who have the knowledge to even use the Seed have to be few and far between. Bayaz needed a guidebook for how to use it without killing himself. Maybe this is just me being biased, but I guess I prefer the path of the door being let open rather than just a summoning of Euz or Glustrod that ultimately results in them being banished again at the end of the book. The difference being that we get to see High Art at its strongest while the door is open. And presumably, it would still be strong well after the door is sealed again. I could be wrong, but I believe it fades over time. 

Also, I think its more likely that its Glustrod than it is Euz, even though you wouldn't think of Glustrod as glowing, because the quote talks about returning as if the return was hard to do. That seems more like Glustrod than Euz. Though, it would play into the theme of the series if it turns out that Euz didn't leave the world willingly and was banished to the other side by his four sons. 

[C.T. Phipps]

Orso was who I was reading this series for and thus I am very disappointed.

[A True Kaniggit]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Orso was who I was reading this series for and thus I am very disappointed.

The hanging of Orso wasn't even necessary. The man was 100% OK with leaving everything behind and being a farmer, carpenter, merchant, or etc. somewhere.

 

What is truly sad is he was killed for the failings of the previous monarchs. Do we even know how long he was actually king for? 

7-9 months maybe?

Too bad he wasn't allowed at least a few years to try and set things to rights, and do good by the common people.

[Garlan the Gallant]

32 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The hanging of Orso wasn't even necessary. The man was 100% OK with leaving everything behind and being a farmer, carpenter, merchant, or etc. somewhere.

 

What is truly sad is he was killed for the failings of the previous monarchs. Do we even know how long he was actually king for? 

7-9 months maybe?

Too bad he wasn't allowed at least a few years to try and set things to rights, and do good by the common people.

It may have not been wholly unnecessary if you knew the inner workings of Orso's mind but he was going to be judged against what the Young Lion would have done in Orso's place. He would have bid his time on a farm until he could lead to another uprising in his name. 

Plus, it goes with the theme of the books. No one who would ever do good for the better of the Circle of the World is ever allowed to rule for relatively long. It started with Juvens and repeats itself forward. 

[polishgenius]

25 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

What is truly sad is he was killed for the failings of the previous monarchs. Do we even know how long he was actually king for? 

 

Hell, not even that. If Judge had succeeded in throwing him off the tower that would have been true, but as it is he was killed because he was too great a threat to Leo - and probably a little bit coz he fucked Leo's wife. 



Anyway, it's had time to settle in my brain and I think I figured out why this book didn't quite hit for me- it's because more than any other book in the nine this felt like a transition novel (and, as a result, so does the whole series ultimately, but book 2 had - unusually for a middle book, eh- a much stronger self-standing plotline). It feels like the whole thing exists because in order to set up the true endgame of his series, Joe needed to get certain pieces from position A to position B, specifically in regards to not having Bayaz actively ruling the Union or the North, and also advancing technology/social ideas just a little faster than they already had been- and that accomplishing that was the main aim here, with the character arcs being imposed on top of that.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

It may have not been wholly unnecessary if you knew the inner workings of Orso's mind but he was going to be judged against what the Young Lion would have done in Orso's place. He would have bid his time on a farm until he could lead to another uprising in his name. 

Plus, it goes with the theme of the books. No one who would ever do good for the better of the Circle of the World is ever allowed to rule for relatively long. It started with Juvens and repeats itself forward. 

It also isn't just about what Orso himself might think, while he is still alive people opposed to the new regime will use him as a rallying cry regardless of whether he knows anything about it and it will always cast a shadow over the legitimacy of his nephew's rule.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The hanging of Orso wasn't even necessary. The man was 100% OK with leaving everything behind and being a farmer, carpenter, merchant, or etc. somewhere.

 

What is truly sad is he was killed for the failings of the previous monarchs. Do we even know how long he was actually king for? 

7-9 months maybe?

Too bad he wasn't allowed at least a few years to try and set things to rights, and do good by the common people.

It doesn’t matter if Orso really is a threat.

What matters is that Leo and his faction think he is (as well as being vindictive swine).

[Garlan the Gallant]

9 hours ago, polishgenius said:

It feels like the whole thing exists because in order to set up the true endgame of his series, Joe needed to get certain pieces from position A to position B, specifically in regards to not having Bayaz actively ruling the Union or the North, and also advancing technology/social ideas just a little faster than they already had been- and that accomplishing that was the main aim here, with the character arcs being imposed on top of that.

I thought Joe was considering doing three stand alone novels before doing a trilogy. I figure that last trilogy will be the endgame. If he does three stand alone novels before, Euz or Glustrod won’t be making an appearance.

[mormont]

7 hours ago, williamjm said:

It also isn't just about what Orso himself might think, while he is still alive people opposed to the new regime will use him as a rallying cry regardless of whether he knows anything about it and it will always cast a shadow over the legitimacy of his nephew's rule.

Quite. Young King Harod is the son of a bastard who was the daughter of a bastard and, by the by, was conceived out of wedlock himself, though that probably doesn't matter so much since he was born after his parents married. His claim could hardly be shakier, even without the recent history of revolution. Whether Orso wants to be King or not, people who dislike Leo and/or Savine will want him to be. Not least Bayaz.

[C.T. Phipps]

Orso should have forgiven Leo but only after he was hanged.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Orso should have forgiven Leo but only after he was hanged.

Poor Orso lacked the killer instinct.  That's a capital offence, in Abercrombieland.

[Caligula_K3]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:57 PM, polishgenius said:

 

Anyway, it's had time to settle in my brain and I think I figured out why this book didn't quite hit for me- it's because more than any other book in the nine this felt like a transition novel (and, as a result, so does the whole series ultimately, but book 2 had - unusually for a middle book, eh- a much stronger self-standing plotline). It feels like the whole thing exists because in order to set up the true endgame of his series, Joe needed to get certain pieces from position A to position B, specifically in regards to not having Bayaz actively ruling the Union or the North, and also advancing technology/social ideas just a little faster than they already had been- and that accomplishing that was the main aim here, with the character arcs being imposed on top of that.

Yeah, this is ultimately how I feel too. Despite being a full trilogy, The Age of Madness somehow feels like mainly setup for the real story. One of the reasons I've always loved Abercrombie is that even though each of his books (or the first trilogy) sets up potential storylines to explore later, they always feel self-contained, and have therefore avoided falling into the traps that authors of long epic fantasy series get themselves into.

 It really doesn't help that so much of the Bayaz stuff in this trilogy feels perfunctory and anti-climactic, and that the revolution centrepiece of the trilogy wasn't as interesting as it could have been. It's also hard to get excited about the next trilogy if a big part of it is going to be another war in the north - did we really need three books of wars in the north to set that up? I hope Abercrombie does something different there.

All in all, then, this trilogy's greatest strengths were its characters; some of the posts in this thread have even made me appreciate Leo's character arc more. Those characters and their relationships worked very well with the aristocratic civil war plotline in Book 2, and I think that's why it's by far my favourite of the trilogy. For class warfare... I really wish we'd gotten more of the perspective of those who might support a revolution for nobler reasons, even if the whole thing still falls apart, as revolutions tend to do. And if it's all in the end about Glokta displacing Bayaz, then more of that, I think, needs to be in the foreground too, at least in the third book.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Poor Orso lacked the killer instinct.  That's a capital offence, in Abercrombieland.

I mean Leo's Karma Houdini status is the most frustrating part of all this. I wouldn't be so upset if not for the fact Leo absolutely should have been dead at the end of Book 2.

[Jerry Drake]

There isn't a chance of Leo surviving Book 2 in any realistic scenario, I agree. However, if we take a step back to consider what Leo represents - in my mind it's entitled aristocracy - then it makes more sense. 'Old power' always has the dexterity to somehow come out on top and I believe this is what Leo surviving was supposed to underline.

I don't think Leo really ever changed or attempted to change over the course of the trilogy. He was equally hating on 'brown people' when he had all his arms and legs as after getting crippled. Getting crippled just made the tools he had for advancing in the world different. His speeches as a politician aren't really that much different than his posturing and grandstanding while he was a promising young pup in the North before the rebellion. That posturing too had zero substance, but it was great at playing at the emotions of the onlookers.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

There isn't a chance of Leo surviving Book 2 in any realistic scenario, I agree. However, if we take a step back to consider what Leo represents - in my mind it's entitled aristocracy - then it makes more sense. 'Old power' always has the dexterity to somehow come out on top and I believe this is what Leo surviving was supposed to underline.

I don't think Leo really ever changed or attempted to change over the course of the trilogy. He was equally hating on 'brown people' when he had all his arms and legs as after getting crippled. Getting crippled just made the tools he had for advancing in the world different. His speeches as a politician aren't really that much different than his posturing and grandstanding while he was a promising young pup in the North before the rebellion. That posturing too had zero substance, but it was great at playing at the emotions of the onlookers.

He was a thoroughgoing racist, as well as a self-hating gay man.

I agree that his arc was more about revealing what he is, rather than his being corrupted.

[BigFatCoward]

Nothing much too add other than agree Broad was easily the weakest character JA has ever written, young Calder and Hildi are who the vision was referring to and I really thought (hoped) Shivers was going to sneak Orso out and take him to Monza to use as a pawn/meet his son etc. 

If we are getting 6 more books I'm fine with that, I assume we see them all before the next ASOIAF.  

Orso dying was the worst death by far of the whole series, with only Cosca coming close for me. 

[Jerry Drake]

I get the feeling Orso really hated himself a great deal and maybe that's why he wasn't at all scared of dying, be it at the battle or when he denounced himself. If we count the whole world then we have Foscar on the other hand who was an innocent kid who got killed because he was lumped in together with other very guilty people just because he was present, and half-remembering the scene, it seems Monza felt that as well but Shivers intervened.