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The Wisdom of Crowds by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]


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Btw, did Joe include a troll moment for the readers in the scene when Rikke and Isern follow Corleth to her grandma's house? It ends with Rikke joking that the grandma might be the Bloody-Nine in disguise. :laugh: I though it was Joe trolling us, because many readers keep hoping to see Logen again despite his age.

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3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Btw, did Joe include a troll moment for the readers in the scene when Rikke and Isern follow Corleth to her grandma's house? It ends with Rikke joking that the grandma might be the Bloody-Nine in disguise. :laugh: I though it was Joe trolling us, because many readers keep hoping to see Logen again despite his age.

I gotta say, that was something that perked me up.  I am firmly in the camp that is happy with the ending we got for Logen; however I was confused on the purpose of the chapter in general and then he dropped that line in there and I thought "Wait... could he????" :lol:

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On 9/22/2021 at 5:28 PM, Corvinus85 said:

Btw, did Joe include a troll moment for the readers in the scene when Rikke and Isern follow Corleth to her grandma's house? It ends with Rikke joking that the grandma might be the Bloody-Nine in disguise. :laugh: I though it was Joe trolling us, because many readers keep hoping to see Logen again despite his age.

There were a few troll moments in this, to be sure. The entire thing ending with a prophecy kind of makes me think Abercrombie hates his readers 

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I very much doubt he hates his readers in general... but he may hate the way demands exist because of fan clubs for particular characters or particular sorts of stories that create friction with his own desires to explore different things. It's kind of like the thing where people feel ownership for a band ("I liked them before they were famous") and turn on them if they don't deliver what they want ("I liked their old stuff better.") 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

I very much doubt he hates his readers in general... but he may hate the way demands exist because of fan clubs for particular characters or particular sorts of stories that create friction with his own desires to explore different things. It's kind of like the thing where people feel ownership for a band ("I liked them before they were famous") and turn on them if they don't deliver what they want ("I liked their old stuff better.") 

 

Yeah, it definitely seems he dislikes all the Logan fan boys. But meh, I dunno. This book definitely didn't leave a great taste in my mouth. Partially because it was an obvious mirror for some recent events, but more so because it relied on twists in the end that simply weren't at all twisty, if that makes sense. 

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53 minutes ago, Relic said:

Yeah, it definitely seems he dislikes all the Logan fan boys. But meh, I dunno. This book definitely didn't leave a great taste in my mouth. Partially because it was an obvious mirror for some recent events, but more so because it relied on twists in the end that simply weren't at all twisty, if that makes sense. 

I liked the fact that the twists weren't really twists, unless you were sleep-reading the trilogy. Twists that are well set-up and some people see coming are a good thing, instead of random BS pulled out of thin air.

The only thing that was really a surprise was just how deep and long-term Glokta had been planning, but then it made sense that he knew the only way to bring down Bayaz, or at least reduce his influence, was to come at him from an unexpected direction and over a long period of time, and in a manner that seemed dangerous to Glokta as well. I also liked Glokta's shout-out to Jezal, saying that Jezal had played the part that Bayaz had set for him with such dedication that Bayaz didn't realise he and Glokta were plotting to bring him down behind his back.

My main complaint is the cynical take of revolutions being co-opted and failing feels a bit too cynical, and makes me wonder if this failed revolution is setting up a proper revolution in the next trilogy (just as the February Revolution set up the October Revolution in 1917, though presumably the gap here will be wider). The idea of the revolutionaries achieving their goal and not having any firm policy ideas or plans for afterwards was a bit odd, as revolutionaries usually do have ideas and plans and set them in motion. Sitting around for three months arguing about things is usually something that doesn't happen until later on, although again I guess it was trying to riff off the February Revolution (which had promise but petered out, paving the way for the much more transformative October Revolution).

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I think the problem I had with the twists especially Zuri and Glokta, were that they were set up way too much.  Some subtle set up would have been fine, but it felt like he was beating us over the head with it.  Like the Zuri reveal teases early in the novel were so over the top it felt like he was insulting my intelligence as a reader.   He had enough subtle hints in the first two books that you didn't need to do any other set up of that twist, but he just piled it on.  On top of that I think both the Zuri and Glokta reveals came so late in the book and  were so obvious by that point that they completely lacked any impact.  The only twist I thought was well handled was Leo taking over but I think the book lost a lot of it's steam and just kinda meandered after that. 

 

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5 hours ago, Werthead said:

I liked the fact that the twists weren't really twists, unless you were sleep-reading the trilogy. Twists that are well set-up and some people see coming are a good thing, instead of random BS pulled out of thin air.

The only thing that was really a surprise was just how deep and long-term Glokta had been planning, but then it made sense that he knew the only way to bring down Bayaz, or at least reduce his influence, was to come at him from an unexpected direction and over a long period of time, and in a manner that seemed dangerous to Glokta as well. I also liked Glokta's shout-out to Jezal, saying that Jezal had played the part that Bayaz had set for him with such dedication that Bayaz didn't realise he and Glokta were plotting to bring him down behind his back.

My main complaint is the cynical take of revolutions being co-opted and failing feels a bit too cynical, and makes me wonder if this failed revolution is setting up a proper revolution in the next trilogy (just as the February Revolution set up the October Revolution in 1917, though presumably the gap here will be wider). The idea of the revolutionaries achieving their goal and not having any firm policy ideas or plans for afterwards was a bit odd, as revolutionaries usually do have ideas and plans and set them in motion. Sitting around for three months arguing about things is usually something that doesn't happen until later on, although again I guess it was trying to riff off the February Revolution (which had promise but petered out, paving the way for the much more transformative October Revolution).

I’m not sure a Lenin/Stalin figure would be good news.

I don’t know what to make of the revolution.  The revolutionary leaders were shits, the people they overthrew were shits, those who took over from them were shits.  Is human progress therefore impossible?  Not in real life.  I think the big benefit of revolutions is that they give Whigs and moderate conservatives the evidence to persuade the reactionaries that reform is needed to avoid the fate of societies that failed to reform.

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6 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

My main complaint is the cynical take of revolutions being co-opted and failing feels a bit too cynical, and makes me wonder if this failed revolution is setting up a proper revolution in the next trilogy (just as the February Revolution set up the October Revolution in 1917, though presumably the gap here will be wider). The idea of the revolutionaries achieving their goal and not having any firm policy ideas or plans for afterwards was a bit odd, as revolutionaries usually do have ideas and plans and set them in motion. Sitting around for three months arguing about things is usually something that doesn't happen until later on, although again I guess it was trying to riff off the February Revolution (which had promise but petered out, paving the way for the much more transformative October Revolution).

It was tedious and heavy handed but JB obviously was watching BBC or CNN on whatever day that was in which the US capitol was stormed by morons and extrapolated on (upon?) those events. 

Edited by Relic
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Enjoyed the book. It was no LAOK but was still good. Still gutted about Orso.

I'm not a fan of shocking twists coming out of nowhere so I was quite happy with the Zuri/Glokta etc. reveals. It was decently hinted at in book 1 that Zuri was an Eater and made rather obvious that she was Ishri by the end of book 2. It was also obvious by the end of book 2 that Glokta and Pike were working together.

Some stuff was just a bit too obvious though and took any tension away from the storyline i.e. Rikke's falling out with the Nail and Isern as well as Corleth being Calder's spy were all just so obvious right from the get go.

Broad was proven to be the dullest character that Abercrombie has created. Maybe the author even realised this 'coz it felt like Broad was given less page time in this book. Judge was also rubbish as a villain. The portion of the book with Risinau, Judge, the people's court, the denunciations etc. became repetitive and very tedious.

Since there were people questioning it upthread, it does make sense for Rikke to be the owl - owl symbolism is commonly associated with magic, mystery, the moon. Makes more sense for Rikke to be the owl than Broad just because of his glasses.

I'm also not sure how there can be any doubt whatsoever over the identity of the blonde haired women in Rikke's vision.  It's very obvious that it's Hildi. Both are going to be Bayaz's instruments to go after the North and the Union. Calder's son and Hildi also have their own personal reasons to want vengeance on Rikke, Leo and Savine.

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17 hours ago, shortstark said:

Wasn't this book written way before these events?

Yes.

I thought a lot of the action and themes around this story strand in the previous volumes (I haven't read this one yet, and won't be able to for  while), were events like Peterloo, later ones in the 1840's - 50's in Europe, and even some in the earlier French, and later Russian revolutions.  

To know about violent overthrows or attempts to overthrow, government from 'the bottom' one doesn't need to think of January 6.  Though of course we who lived through watching them, and those who lived through -- and don't use for them 'lived through' lightly -- will think of Jan. 6 for the rest of our lives.

Probably, one could as easily say the Jan 6 traitors had been inspired by reading Abercrombie's earlier volumes. Hubris, ignorance, out-of-touchness, is rife always among the ruling classes, whether monarchs or political parties.

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Still reading but this little passage when Judge's Burners were doing their purges reminded me of a song

"I've been a baker twenty years"

"Hoarders!"

"Take 'em to the Tower"

"Take 'em all!"

I mean, they literally say - Take 'em all, watch 'em fall :)

Edited by Jerry Drake
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