Dune Spoiler Thread

[Bael's Bastard]

7 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

Given that nearly every scene is longer than it needs to be, you could easily have excised a good hour of part one without losing anything. Which means that they could possibly have told the full story in 3 or 3.5 hours.

I love Denis Villeneuve, but his movies are always way longer than they should be.

Dude, not even close. That is like suggesting someone making $40K/year could have saved enough to become a billionaire if they had just skipped the Starbucks and lunches out. Even if every single scene ran long, which I think is hyperbole, 2 1/2, or 3, or 3 1/2, or even 4 hours is not enough time to adapt Dune in any way worth doing. Even two 2 1/2 hour movies will fall well short of enough time to give the characters and story the bare minimum time they need to tell it right. I have made peace with the fact that this is going to fall well short of what it could have been as a series, and appreciate it for what it is, better looking than the mini series and closer to the book than the Lynch, but it already sacrificed quite a bit. Trying to cram the entire book into one movie would have been downright awful.

[Guy Kilmore]

12 hours ago, The Mance said:

In the scene where Paul and Jessica meet the Fremen, Stilgar attributes Jessica besting him to her weirding ways and it isn't clear to me at all what she had done to clue him in to her abilities beyond just being a more competent fighter than he'd anticipated.  What did I miss?

Remember the Bene Gesserit told Jessica that they laid a path forward for her age Paul.  Think about it,  how did they do that?

[Bael's Bastard]

14 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Remember the Bene Gesserit told Jessica that they laid a path forward for her age Paul.  Think about it,  how did they do that?

The Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva has spread superstitions, myths, and prophecies—like the Lisan al-Gaib on Arrakis—throughout the empire.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I thought it was fantastic. To the critics whining about movies being too long I'd just encourage them to stick with sitcoms then. Villeneuve movies are not too long, movies are never too long, there are some audience members who should probably just not watch instead of ruining it for everyone else. We already cut (which is another version of dumbing down) too much and alter the artistic vision as it is.

Shame on anyone that would carry water for such a bad idea.

Bring on the 2nd act and may it be no less than 200 minutes thank you.

[The Mance]

45 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva has spread superstitions, myths, and prophecies—like the Lisan al-Gaib on Arrakis—throughout the empire.

Right, which just makes Stilgar's approach to the situation even more curious.  Like, he knows who they are, and would be fully steeped in the mythos, so why would he think to dismiss, let alone lay hands on, Jessica? 

And what was it about being BG that enabled Jessica to wrap him up so handily?  Are martial arts part of their skillset?  Did I miss her using The Voice, or was there some other/new aspect of her weirding ways that wasn't effectively made apparent in the scene?   Because it looked to me like she just outclassed him, but he reacted as though she'd used some mystical hoodoo on him.

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, The Mance said:

Right, which just makes Stilgar's approach to the situation even more curious.  Like, he knows who they are, and would be fully steeped in the mythos, so why would he think to dismiss, let alone lay hands on, Jessica? 

And what was it about being BG that enabled Jessica to wrap him up so handily?  Are martial arts part of their skillset?  Did I miss her using The Voice, or was there some other/new aspect of her weirding ways that wasn't effectively made apparent in the scene?   Because it looked to me like she just outclassed him, but he reacted as though she'd used some mystical hoodoo on him.

The BG are basically ninja nuns. They have near molecular control of their body. The only reason jessica was able to be taken at all was because yueh knocked her out and she wasn't anticipating it. 

In addition to that she has a bit of Paul's prescience. But really she is just a bad ass. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I thought it was fantastic. To the critics whining about movies being too long I'd just encourage them to stick with sitcoms then.

People shouldn't be douchebags because they hear an opinion they don't like.

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Villeneuve movies are not too long,

The Blade Runner 2049 box office would disagree with you.

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movies are never too long,

Sir Ridley Scott would disagree with you.

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there are some audience members who should probably just not watch instead of ruining it for everyone else.

If someone's feelings are so hurt by someone else's opinion that it ruins a film for them, maybe they should stick to disconnecting from the internet and society at large.

Talking about carrying water is both hilarious and also highly apropos given the subject matter, I suppose.

 

[DMC]

I never got into the book growing up - even tried one last time about a decade ago and it still didn't take.  My brother loved it though, and he goaded me into watching it today.  It was very beautiful - certainly should have seen it in theaters if I had enough interest to pay for it.  Well performed too.  But also very boring. 

It reminded me of Deathly Hollows Part I in that the split just made it too difficult make a satisfying standalone movie.  And I agree with others that while it may not have been "too long" (I certainly don't mind long movies generally), the direction really dragged out a lot of scenes that didn't need to be.

7 hours ago, Relic said:

Instead of Paul having a hardcore acid trip in the tent we see images of a girl posing for IG pics on a dune.

Beat me to it on the latter part.  Was gonna say, Zendaya got quite the paycheck and coverage for basically starring in a music video.  I don't think she had more than four lines.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I thought it was fantastic. To the critics whining about movies being too long I'd just encourage them to stick with sitcoms then. Villeneuve movies are not too long, movies are never too long, there are some audience members who should probably just not watch instead of ruining it for everyone else. We already cut (which is another version of dumbing down) too much and alter the artistic vision as it is.

Shame on anyone that would carry water for such a bad idea.

Bring on the 2nd act and may it be no less than 200 minutes thank you.

I’d say that you can make longer movies but you have to still try and keep them entertaining and bring the viewer along with you so that they don’t notice the length. 
 

I don’t think Dune managed it, Blade Runner also had similar issues. For me the biggest flaw of Dune is it’s narrative structure. It doesn’t flow and after a certain point feels like it’s just dragging it’s heels. 
 

Maybe a better movie would have made 2.5 hours feel shorter.. but I was clock watching after 1.5 hours 

[DireWolfSpirit]

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

If someone's feelings are so hurt by someone else's opinion that it ruins a film for them, maybe they should stick to disconnecting from the internet and society at large.

Talking about carrying water is both hilarious and also highly apropos given the subject matter, I suppose.

That's a weird interpretation of what was posted. Point of clarification- The bickering over films being too long ruins it for everyone else because of the extreme pressure it puts on studios to cut, cut, cut and butcher down the Directors vision, to leave out relevant source material, to cram everything in under 2 hrs.

Studios and investors put enough constraints on what they are letting get produced. It is paining to hear film watchers buy into the brainwashing that the movies are too long/the water carrying.

We have the interviews from Coppola and Scorcese and more complaining about how the Godfather and other movies can never be made today because of these dynamics. We are all robbed of what's not being made already, we shouldn't be happy or encouraging of the chopping/watering down of good art.

[karaddin]

8 hours ago, Relic said:

My Dune review in under 30 words. 

Style A, Substance C.

Instead of Paul having a hardcore acid trip in the tent we see images of a girl posing for IG pics on a dune.

 

As an aside, does anyone pronounce Harkonnen the cool way, or do you pronounce it the way they did in the movie? 

This was my introduction to their name and I've pronounced it like this ever since

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I pronounce it like this.

 

Ha, same idea as mine but the later iteration.

43 minutes ago, Ran said:

People shouldn't be douchebags because they hear an opinion they don't like.

To be fair to DWS its really quite exhausting to be excited about something, enjoy it, and then come here to share the enjoyment just to see almost wall to wall criticisms at best, or outright shitting on the series/movie, shitting on the people who made it, and shitting on people who enjoyed it at worst. And it happens about almost everything that gets adapted. I'd say the biggest key to enjoying a movie or TV adaptation of a SFF book is to not be a fan of the book(s), but I really enjoyed this and I liked the Shadow and Bone series as well and I'd read and enjoyed those books and read Dune plenty when I was younger. I guess S&B probably had the most positive reception in its thread of any adaptation I've watched lately and it probably had the lowest expectations, so maybe the key is just keeping low expectations.

It just seems like an aspect of parts of nerd culture is critiquing to death and ignoring anything good and its a fucking miserable way to consume media. I used to do it as well so its not like I'm unfamiliar with it, but I'm so much happier since I stopped. You can still look for when things are done intelligently, or subtly, or masterfully, and still watch with a positive "I want to enjoy this" mindset.

Maybe I'm the problem and I should stop reading discussion threads expecting any different. I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong about the flaws they see either, some of them do come down to subjective taste and some of them are relatively objectively flaws - just flaws that don't impact my enjoyment. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

45 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I’d say that you can make longer movies but you have to still try and keep them entertaining and bring the viewer along with you so that they don’t notice the length. 
 

I don’t think Dune managed it, Blade Runner also had similar issues. For me the biggest flaw of Dune is it’s narrative structure. It doesn’t flow and after a certain point feels like it’s just dragging it’s heels. 
 

Maybe a better movie would have made 2.5 hours feel shorter.. but I was clock watching after 1.5 hours 

I will just agree to disagree then. The movie did not feel too long at all for me and I didn't lose interest at any point.

[Ran]

37 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

That's a weird interpretation of what was posted.

Telling people to stick to sitcoms because they find this film, or some other Villeneuve film, ponderous is not a strange interpretation. It's the height of rudeness. 

I can't speak to anyone else here, but I both found BR2049 an underwhelming film that left me cold and I've watched and enjoyed many films that are much longer than that or Dune. I just the other week watched and deeply enjoyed a 4 hour movie that was mostly a two-hander with an artist drawing nude studies of a model (La Belle Noiseuse). I'm a big fan of Lawrence of Arabia. I noted watching Once Upon a Time in Hollywood recently and the run time of that film is not an issue. Tarkovsky's Solaris and Stalker are remarkable works of art, in my book, but others will tell you that it's like watching paint dry. 

So, yeah. Long films are not a problem. Long films that don't justify their length are.

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Point of clarification- The bickering over films being too long ruins it for everyone else because of the extreme pressure it puts on studios to cut,

I promise you there is no one from any studio or production house nervously concerned about Lord Patrek or anyone else on this forum thinking the movie was too long.

17 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 

To be fair to DWS its really quite exhausting to be excited about something, enjoy it, and then come here to share the enjoyment just to see almost wall to wall criticisms at best

I don't know, I think there are a lot of people who are very happy with it in this thread.

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, or outright shitting on the series/movie, shitting on the people who made it, and shitting on people who enjoyed it at worst.

I've only seen people shitting on people who  didn't enjoy it in this thread, personally, but I have not looked too closely. People should be allowed to enjoy or not enjoy what they feel like. 

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Maybe I'm the problem and I shoulad stop reading discussion threads expecting any different. I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong about the flaws they see either, some of them do come down to subjective taste and some of them are relatively objectively flaws - just flaws that don't impact my enjoyment. 

I think it's common to feel some degree of discomfort with your having an unalloyed joy in something that others have critiques about. Some people get defensive about it, as if they need to prove that there's nothing wrong with their taste, but end of the day it's all just subjective and no one should feel a need to justify subjective taste. Those who loved BR2049, good for you! Those who strongly disliked Sicario, that's all right! 

There's plenty of people in this thread who really loved it and I don't think you need to abandon it. Skim over those who aren't vibing with you and it's all good.

[Heartofice]

10 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I will just agree to disagree then. The movie did not feel too long at all for me and I didn't lose interest at any point.

Sure I get everyone will watch it and take different things from it. I think there is a good movie in there but the way it’s written and cut means that I really struggled to feel involved with it or the characters.

Im not sure the length is the issue though, because there are plenty of long movies that work well. In terms of big blockbuster movies, fellowship of the ring is a bloody long movie, more so if you watch the extended editions. But the reason that works and Dune doesn’t is because it follows a pretty simple structure , with highs and lows, and with a building momentum to an end point.

It also works because of its relationships, and actually Dune doesn’t do a good job of establishing relationships between characters. The most important should be Jessica and Paul, but outside of some moments of her crying it’s hard to tell what that relationship is. There is a little chat between Paul and Duke Leto early on that gave me hope, but when Leto dies I felt nothing, Paul and Jessica also seemed less than bothered outside of a momentary shudder. 
 

It wasn’t a very human story, it was detached and robotic. Without that heart it’s hard to sustain such a long run time. Beautiful imagery isn’t enough.

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I think it's common to feel some degree of discomfort with your having an unalloyed joy in something that others have critiques about. Some people get defensive about it, as if they need to prove that there's nothing wrong with their taste, but end of the day it's all just subjective and no one should feel a need to justify subjective taste. Those who loved BR2049, good for you! Those who strongly disliked Sicario, that's all right! 

There's plenty of people in this thread who really loved it and I don't think you need to abandon it. Skim over those who aren't vibing with you and it's all good.

Any one particular thing is fine, its just the collective fatigue from it. I agree that no one is shitting on anyone for enjoying Dune so that part was very much outside this thread, and barely any of it could even be charactertised as shitting on the movie or DV - this would be at the "at best" end of that spectrum. 

Obviously this is getting OT for this thread as a result, but I'd say some of the responses to WoT (which isn't even out yet) and Foundation especially are treading more towards the other end of that spectrum. And I wasn't even jumping in to complain about this dynamic myself, if not for that exchange between DWS and yourself I'd have kept silent on it - just wanted to give an opening to explain some frustration via gradual fatigue.

I clearly have a different perception of the majority opinion on Dune to you though and I'd be curious to confirm which of us is closer to accurately measuring the majority opinion. I would have said a significant majority are either negative or (and this may possibly explain where I'm getting my impression from) moderately positive but focusing comments on the parts of the movie they felt let down the source material/ie criticisms. Probably around 60% in that category.

[Ran]

Just now, karaddin said:

I clearly have a different perception of the majority opinion on Dune

I haven't yet watched Dune. I've been remarking more on my perceptions of Villeneuve from the films I've seen. His turn to science fiction should by all rights be big hits with me, but so far Arrival and BR2049 left me disappointed to varying degrees, even as their merits and the strength of (most) of their performances (Jared Leto ) are obvious. We'll see if Dune works better for me, but I'm afraid something about his approach to film making, however technically accomplished, just seems not to work for me. And I watch Terrence Malick films for fun.

Apparently it got an A- Cinemascore, which is pretty good (but pretty much entirely what 95% of blockbuster/Tentpole releases get because the first day audience is so hyped), and it just edged over $40 million, so it's had a good start. Real question will be the week 2 drop.

 

[karaddin]

Just now, Ran said:

I haven't yet watched Dune. I've been remarking more on my perceptions of Villeneuve from the films I've seen. His turn to science fiction should by all rights be big hits with me, but so far Arrival and BR2049 left me disappointed to varying degrees, even as their merits and the strength of (most) of their performances (Jared Leto ) are obvious. We'll see if Dune works better for me, but I'm afraid something about his approach to film making, however technically accomplished, just seems not to work for me. And I watch Terrence Malick films for fun.

Apparently it got an A- Cinemascore, which is pretty good (but pretty much entirely what 95% of blockbuster/Tentpole releases get because the first day audience is so hyped), and it just edged over $40 million, so it's had a good start. Real question will be the week 2 drop.

 

Oh apologies - I meant majority in this thread, most of what I'm seeing elsewhere is definitely leaning positive if not heavily positive. Some have qualified criticisms with parts that didn't work for them, booktuber Daniel Greene for example found parts of it weren't working for him, but my perception of a heavily negative response was limited to here.

I've still not gotten around to watching BR2049, but I liked Arrival a lot. I'd say DV's SF has a carefully drawn, almost fragile tone to it even as its depicting enormous objects better than probably anything else. I can see how that feels too slow for some peoples taste, I just would have guessed it would have been the mainstream audience rather than the more nerdy audience taking issue with that. For an example (didn't realise you hadn't seen it yet) the scene with the hunter seeker is pretty much silent and longish as Paul hides in a hologram (the shot of him with white lines all over him from the trailer was this scene) and it probably could have been half the length, but that would have been a worse scene for my tastes.

Off that topic completely, a few of the visual effects that really worked for me in this were 

1. The lasguns. I don't think I've seen another SF property where it felt like lasers were truly dangerous and substantively different from regular guns, but you could use a single one of these to carve through an entire army in a single arc with it. I guess the shields meaning they're almost never used means that you can make them much more powerful without breaking narrative balance, but having the visual effects live up to that is still great
2. Enormous ships hanging motionless above cities is incredibly effective at convincing my brain that this is not remotely close to our tech level. Its not the first time this has been done, the Star Destroyer above Jeddah in Rogue One definitely had this effect going, as did the ships in Arrival, but its the first time I've seen it done at scale (ie a whole bunch of ships) amplified the effect much more than I would have expected. Having the peak of this occur with the Harkonnen ships after successfully invading really made the effect work with the tone of that part of the narrative as well. This untouchable force hanging in the sky above the city like evil gods.
3. The Baron's healing pond. Ugh this was utterly disgusting and very suitable. On the whole it managed to convince me that the Harkonnen in general have diverged further from current humanity (and the Atreides) than I'd grasped on a visceral level in the book. Also was surprised that the "evil rituals" from the trailer were actually the Sardaukar, not the Harkonnen.

[Relic]

 

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Even if every single scene ran long, which I think is hyperbole, 2 1/2, or 3, or 3 1/2, or even 4 hours is not enough time to adapt Dune in any way worth doing. 

It can be argued that C.V. isn't making optimal use of the run time by lingering on pointless shots. 

[Relic]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

To be fair to DWS its really quite exhausting to be excited about something, enjoy it, and then come here to share the enjoyment just to see almost wall to wall criticisms at best, or outright shitting on the series/movie, shitting on the people who made it, and shitting on people who enjoyed it at worst.

That's the problem with the internet, isn't it? Instead of bringing humanity closer it made us sick of one another. 

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I read Dune for the first just before the film came out, so it’s very fresh in my memory. The film is very faithful, but feels a bit rushed. I didn’t feel that it had much time to breathe. I thought that the book ended pretty abruptly, and I think that it’s a good thing that they are planning on giving the last third a whole film. It does give this first film the sense of being a feature length pilot to be followed by a tv series, like Battlestar Galactica.

Someone mentioned upthread about there being an hour spent on Caladan. I’m pretty sure I timed it at 30 minutes. I agree that it was more drab than the book described.

I did not think the film felt too long, but I was sitting in a very comfy reclined seat at the cinema and had no problems with the sound. I do agree that it felt quite hollow, but I think this reflects the book, which is also quite cold. Jessica seemed like she didn’t have much to do, but this might be because we don’t see things from her POV in the same way as in the book. Having the banquet might have helped with this.

The slow motion bombs and darts really bothered me. The whole reason they’re using swords is because the shields are  impervious to projectiles. The Harkonnens use artillery in the book, but only to collapse caves. This does make me wonder what the big ships and thopters do to attack each other though.