Dune Spoiler Thread

[A wilding]

24 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That addresses nothing in orbit.  It doesn’t address no CAP.

I think that I can only repeat that warfare in the Dune universe does not seem to work that way. Herbert was not really writing military SF so perhaps did not put too much thought into it.

Though I note that at one point Duke Leto says something like "On Caladan, we ruled with sea and air power. On Arrakis we must rule with desert power. This may include air power, but possibly not." Then later Paul refers to riding on worms being desert power and how it gives them control of Arrakis.

Edit: I think that there is also some reference to the sandstorms being really hard on thopters and limiting their usefulness.

[polishgenius]

I think this just comes down to the old 'Eagles to Mount Doom' thing - if they had had them it would have ended the story but explaining in detail why they didn't was unnecessary and didn't add to what Herbert was trying to do. 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I agree Herbert wasn’t writing “Military Scifi” it still seems like a huge plot hole to assume “shields never fail” and for people as apparently competent as the Atreides and retainers to assume a  single layer of defense, the shields, would be enough to give them time to respond and defend against an attack.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Because… machines break?

One would hope the Atreides shield maintenance schedule was well kept. 

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I agree Herbert wasn’t writing “Military Scifi” it still seems like a huge plot hole to assume “shields never fail” and for people as apparently competent as the Atreides and retainers to assume a  single layer of defense, the shields, would be enough to give them time to respond and defend against an attack.

In the book the sabotage of the shields at the residency merely allows the attackers to capture it and Duke Leto with it. That is obviously a big win, but it does not seem to be that significant in the strict military sense. The Atriedes forces are defeated by overwhelming force guided by very accurate intelligence, not because the residency is taken out.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, A wilding said:

In the book the sabotage of the shields at the residency merely allows the attackers to capture it and Duke Leto with it. That is obviously a big win, but it does not seem to be that significant in the strict military sense. The Atriedes forces are defeated by overwhelming force guided by very accurate intelligence, not because the residency is taken out.

It wasn’t just the size of the attack it was its speed and its strategic and tactical surprise.  The Atreides… after launching an attack on Geidi Prime… got absolutely pulverized by an attack they should have never allowed to achieve tactical surprise…

[A wilding]

It is one reading I think, but not one that I had ever picked up on. I suppose there is plenty of room for interpretation as we get relatively few details. We mostly just get a quick overview from a somewhat shell shocked Hawat. However Hawat is mostly overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the attack, which involves vastly larger forces than he had been expecting or was prepared for.

[Corvinus85]

I believe all the adaptations interpret the Atreides house to be this gigantic complex housing much of the Atreides garrison. I'm not sure if Herbert imagined it that way. So when the house shield collapsed, the Atreides were left exposed. However, the Atreides did have a backup - the nearby caves where the atomics were stored. But the cunning baron brought in old school artillery which is something the Atreides didn't anticipate and used it to bury the Atreides soldiers in those caves.

In the new Dune movie one cool thing was how the Harkonnen destroyed the parked Atreides frigates, with those slow moving bombs. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Why weren’t the frigates manned with at least skeleton crews who might have used the weapons systems to add to the overall defense?  It bothers me that the Harkonnen attack depends on the Atreides being… stupid.

[Fez]

52 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why weren’t the frigates manned with at least skeleton crews who might have used the weapons systems to add to the overall defense?  It bothers me that the Harkonnen attack depends on the Atreides being… stupid.

I think they were complacent, rather than stupid. My assumption is that even with the shields down the Atreides could've fended off an attack that was just Harkonnens and more to the scale that attacks almost always are in the universe. They didn't expect the Baron to be willing to go into debt for decades, nor for the Emperor to get involved. They probably should've, considering the political situation, but that's a failure of imagination/complacency, not stupidity.

[Jace, Extat]

It's not a plot hole, it's just the way the story unfolded. The same as there being an exhaust vent on the Death Star isn't a plot hole. 

It's not real. There's no answer to glean from these inquiries. There was no air patrol because the author didn't write one -nay that, he just didn't specifically describe one and it's activities/demise- because that's not what was important in the story.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

9 hours ago, A wilding said:

Yes. And the Atriedes were negotiating with the Guild for permission to keep a frigate in orbit. The Guild were saying no because the Fremen were bribing them.

Generally though it does not seem that space combat or orbital bombardments etc are a thing in the Dune universe though. Possibly the Guild does not allow them?

 

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That addresses nothing in orbit.  It doesn’t address no CAP.

 

Yeah well, the Maginot line wasn't the greatest idea either.

My understanding of the situation (correct me if I'm wrong):

- House Atreides was still getting its ducks in a row when they were attacked. They were most vulnerable because they were not yet established.

- an attack like that was so improbable that planning for it was not a priority. Partly because of the expense (decades to pay off according to the book, as I mentioned before) and also because of the political norms. A rogue house might be fair game or one house undermining another through subversion, sabotage or low level conflict can happen; but one great house annihilating another one (with the secret help of the Emperor), is beyond comprehension. 

 

[JGP]

I know there weren't [functioning] satellites around Arrakis, for reasons, but not once during a recent reread did I even wonder about the lack of space monitoring from the surface of Arrakis. Unconscious and remnant bias from the Butlerian Jihad, or... ?  

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, JGP said:

I know there weren't [functioning] satellites around Arrakis, for reasons, but not once during a recent reread did I even wonder about the lack of space monitoring from the surface of Arrakis. Unconscious and remnant bias from the Butlerian Jihad, or... ?  

Or completely immaterial to the story. 

The planet Rakis was attacked by Harkonnen-Sardukar coalition; achieved surprise and victory against the grandfather of the God Emperor Leto. The text is clear on this.

Duke Leto's defenses were insufficient to debilitate and dispel attacking forces. What is the confusion?

[JGP]

Just now, Babblebauble said:

Or completely immaterial to the story. 

The planet Rakis was attacked by Harkonnen-Sardukar coalition; achieved surprise and victory against the grandfather of the God Emperor Leto. The text is clear on this.

Duke Leto's defenses were insufficient to debilitate and dispel attacking forces. What is the confusion?

 

It's not confusion. Imagination maybe.

It's a weird day, so why not. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Babblebauble said:

Or completely immaterial to the story. 

The planet Rakis was attacked by Harkonnen-Sardukar coalition; achieved surprise and victory against the grandfather of the God Emperor Leto. The text is clear on this.

Duke Leto's defenses were insufficient to debilitate and dispel attacking forces. What is the confusion?

Arrakis.  It isn’t “Rakis” until 4,000 years later.

FYI.

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, JGP said:

 

It's not confusion. Imagination maybe.

It's a weird day, so why not. 

Do as you please, but I wonder what the reward is for these imaginings. 

Are you to conceive of -then spoil for- a Rogue One-ish profligation  (call it Prime One [brought to you by Amazon]) to fill in the "plot hole" -it is not a plot hole- regarding the unexplored destruction or failed deployment of Atreides air assets over their influential sphere? 

Because I support your right to do such things but please don't. You're worth more than fanish obsession into intellectual cul de sacs. Leave that to the Trekkers and the people who popped erections when Darth Vader turned on his red lightsaber and killed all those idiot rebels.

IMO or whatever.

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Arrakis.  It isn’t “Rakis” until 4,000 years later.

FYI.

I look backwards from where I stand today. Most recently it was known as Rakis.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Werthead]

On 7/9/2022 at 1:01 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The officially “habitable” part of Arrakis is fairly small.  Concentrated as it is above 60 degrees North Latitude (that’s a circle north of the southern tip of Greenland on Earth) and inside areas surrounded by the Shield wall to protect against correlois storms.  A constantly running CAP would have had only a relatively small amount of territory to cover compaired with the entire planet.

Also, Arrakis is the size of Earth's moon. It's a tiny planet that would be very easy to cover with satellites and defend.