Do you think that Jaime, Cersei and Glokta (a character from The First Law trilogy) are "villains"?

[boltons are sick]

 Some time ago I found a reddit topic named "Who are your favorite fantasy villains?" (You can read it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/8cxc6u/who_are_your_favorite_fantasy_villains/)

 One of the comments answered this: 

Quote

Favorite, as in written so vile that they were able to draw the most visceral and palpable hate out of me would probably be Griffith (Berserk.)

Then I have a lot of favorites that I have a wide variety of nuanced feelings toward. Jaime, Cersei, and Glokta are all fantastic, insomuch as they can be called villains. They all do pretty shitty things, but they have realistic motives, and they wouldn't consider themselves villains, (and neither would some readers.)

And I'll just say, the (Abercrombie) character that I assume /u/MikeOfThePalace is talking about is also great.

 So, this person thinks that Griffith from Berserk is the most vile and hateable character in the fantasy genre but at the same time has nuanced feelings for Jaime, Cersei from ASOIAF and Glokta from The First Law and doesn't really consider them villains despite the things they have done.

 So, do you agree or disagree with this statement? I know that a lot of people would disagree that Jaime, Cersei and Glokta are not villains and there are some people who actually like Griffith and sympathize with him but I would like to hear your opinions on the matter.

[Lord Lannister]

Jaime no, Cersei yes, Glokta I have no clue who this is.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Jaime is an antihero, Cersei is a villain and I don't know who the other one is.

[boltons are sick]

@Lord Lannister

@Lilac & Gooseberries

Glokta is an inquisitor. Before the events of the first book he got tortured for 2 years by the Gurkish and for that reason he has many handicaps, needs a cane to walk, has a hump, misses half of his teeth and constantly feels pain on different parts of his body. He was fired from the army because of this and all of his former friends left him and didn't want to do anything with him.

 For the abovementioned reasons, Glokta decided to work for the Inquisition and he really likes torturing people (the same way he himself was tortured by the Gurkish). He doesn't really care if the people he tortures are actually innocent and he frequently forces them to confess to crimes they haven't actually commited. He sometimes kills his victims after the torture and sometimes sends them to penalty colonies. The instruments he uses during the torture sessions are pliers, chisels, hammers, clamps, needles, knives, nails, screws, vials full of acid and oil, metal parts that he can heat up etc.

However, even though he is a sadistic torturer, he is one of the main POV characters in the series and the story tries to make the audience feel sympathy for him.

Spoilers for Last Argument of Kings, the final book of Abercrombie's The Fist Law Trilogy:

Spoiler

He does feel some remorse about his actions and self-pity, he cares about his friend West, and West's sister, Ardee, he marries Ardee to save her life, he adopts her daughter and genuinely loves her, he saves the life of one of his prisoners because he loves her and he sometimes feels moral disgust at the actions of other characters. At the end of the series he doesn't redeem himself but instead ends up working for the true main villain of the entire story, takes control of the entire Inquistion and continues to torture and kill the opposition (but he still feels some remorse and self-pity). Glokta also doesn't see any worth in his own life and wants to die and put an end to his own misery but also doesn't want to kill himself.

 I have seen a lot of people who don't think that Glokta is a villain but an anti-hero because he technically doesn't oppose anyone the readers actually like. However, I have seen a lot of people who think he is a villain because he routinely tortures and kills innocent and guilty people alike both to maintain the political power of his superiors and out of sadistic pleasure but he is still one of the most sympathetic characters in the series.

[Darth Sidious]

I don’t know Glokta. Jaime and Cersei are both villains. Jaime is more of a villain. Cersei has been the antagonists to the Starks but that alone does not make her a villain. It’s the other things that she does that marks her as a villain. Arya Stark is also a villain. 

[boltons are sick]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

I don’t know Glokta. Jaime and Cersei are both villains. Jaime is more of a villain. Cersei has been the antagonists to the Starks but that alone does not make her a villain. It’s the other things that she does that marks her as a villain. Arya Stark is also a villain. 

Out of curiosity, but why do you think that Jaime is more of a villain than Cersei? I am probably one of the few people here that sympathizes with Cersei but despite this she has done worse things than Jaime.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I think there are a few ways to answer this question.

first I want to clarify what a Villain is. is it someone whose evil actions motivate the plot? is it someone who is just evil in character and motivation (a monolith if you will)? is it just an antagonist working against the focal protagonist?

in the first case, the villain of asoiaf is littlefinger for killing Jon Arryn and setting the events in motion. from that perspective, Cersei is more character just trying to survive and save her children from a threat to hers and there future. she does unsavory things, don't doubt that, but the motivation behind her actions are often justified in her mind at least as an effort to protect her children and herself, and such motivation is not inherently evil. sure she cheats on Robert, but Robert cheats on her. sure she arranged his death, but it was Roberts own drunkenness who killed him. is Robert a good king? no he's a terrible king and a wife beater, but ned is his good friend and so he must be a good person? no. Do the Tyrells deserve her wrath and mistrust? well even a broken clock is right twice a day, and the Tyrells murdered her son at his wedding.

similar arguments could be made for Jamie. he killed his king, but his king was mad. he tried to kill a boy, but to save his own skin and probably the lives of his own children in function if not direct intention. many would call him a monster, but to Bri, he's a hero who saved her from being raped and jumped in front of a bear unarmed to protect her.

don't get me wrong, you can still consider them villains, they do morally questionable things, but so does/can everyone to someone. it all ends up a matter of perspective and I think that's intentional on George's part. If they were ever the villains, I think they stopped being that when they became POV characters.

 

[boltons are sick]

42 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I think there are a few ways to answer this question.

first I want to clarify what a Villain is. is it someone whose evil actions motivate the plot? is it someone who is just evil in character and motivation (a monolith of you will)? is it just an antagonist working against the focal protagonist?

in the first case, the villain of asoiaf is littlefinger for killing Jon Arryn and setting the events in motion. from that perspective, Cersei is more character just trying to survive and save her children from a threat to hers and there future. she does unsavory things, don't doubt that, but the motivation behind her actions are often justified in her mind at least as an effort to protect her children and herself, and such motivation is not inherently evil. sure she cheats on Robert, but Robert cheats on her. sure she arranged his death, but it was Roberts own drunkenness who killed him. is Robert a good king? no he's a terrible king and a wife beater, but ned is his good friend and so he must be a good person? no. Do the Tyrells deserve her wrath and mistrust? well even a broken clock is right wise a day, and the Tyrells murdered her son at his wedding.

similar arguments could be made for Jamie. he killed his king, but his king was mad. he tried to kill a boy, but to save his own skin and probably the lives of his own children in function if not direct intention. many would call him a monster, but to Bri, he's a hero who saved her from being raped and jumped in front of a bear unarmed to protect her.

don't get me wrong, you can still consider them villains, they do morally questionable things, but so does/can everyone to someone. it all ends up a matter of perspective and I think that's intentional on George's part. If they were ever the villains, I think they stopped being that when they became POV characters.

 

I like your comment.

[Arthur Peres]

Yes, Cersei and Jaime are villains. They're both cruel, heartless and psychos... too damaged  and too beyond redemption.

[Nevets]

GRRM once said, "No-one is ever the villain in their own story."  This should be remembered.  Of course, readers have no such limitation.  Though, as Targaryeninkingslanding points out, defining "villain" can be a bit difficult.

Jaime was a villain at the beginning, but I don't think qualifies anymore.  He actually is trying to be a decent person.  Cersei is a villain, although I expect that she would deny it, and be quite honest in her denial.  My breaking point with her came with the Blue Bard and the others, although her actions were questionable long before that.

Others that qualify include Joffrey, Petyr Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Theon Greyjoy, Tyrion, Sandor Clegane, Roose Bolton, and Lord Walder Frey.  All would steadfastly deny that they were any such thing, although Baelish might privately realize his villainy; he sure hides it well.  However, in many cases readers would say they are villainous, or at least, pretty unpleasant individuals.

As for the likes of Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Bolton, and Euron Greyjoy, I expect even they would admit they are villains.  They just don't care, or may in fact like that status.  Or would if they were real.  Fortunately, they aren't.

[Moiraine Sedai]

It's time to explore labels. Villain is a label. It's not a permanent state but rather fluid. Jaime is the villain when he murdered Aerys, tried to kill Bran, cuckolded the king who pardoned him, and trashed Tysha. He acted heroically by saving Brienne. Calling him a villain is appropriate because that is what he is most of the time. He's immoral and unethical. He was cuckolding the man who he was supposed to protect. 

Cersei was bad as a child. She is a psychopath. You can't excuse her cruelty just because she loves her children. I mean, after all,  Arya is committing horrible crimes because of her love for her family. Both are condemnable. 

[SeanF]

Martin has called Tyrion “the villain” of the story, despite being his favourite.  I see him as his answer to Richard III.

I love both Arya and Dany (his joint second favourites).  I think both characters are mainly good-hearted, but they possess a cruel and vindictive side to them.

Jon Snow may be thought something of a Boy Scout, but he too can be ruthless and vengeful.

Bran is fairly good-natured, but is happy to warg Hodor.  Sansa possesses kindness and empathy, but she is also a liar who is susceptible to bribery and corruption.

So, he likes his dark characters.  Jaime is one of those.  He wants to be a decent person, but so often he fails.  Cersei is the more straightforward villain, even if one feels occasional sympathy.  There’s no way back from having people vivisected.

Glokta, well he’s fascinating, but unquestionably a very bad man.  Just read the passage in Last Argument of Kings, where he gets Terez to sleep with her husband by threatening to gang-rape her girlfriend.

[BlackLightning]

In short, yes.

Jaime is more of an anti-villain than Cersei or Glokta.

But  yep: all villains. Simply for the point that they are morally dubious (if not, abhorrent) people who challenge, oppose and exploit the people in the story who are largely righteous and innocent.

[Darth Sidious]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:31 PM, boltons are sick said:

Out of curiosity, but why do you think that Jaime is more of a villain than Cersei? I am probably one of the few people here that sympathizes with Cersei but despite this she has done worse things than Jaime.

Jaime is the worst man to ever wear the uniform of the KG. He murdered King Aerys II. He should have taken his king outside the city, to safety. He also betrayed his next king and slept with the queen. His attempt on Bran’s life started the war of the five kings. He knows Joffrey is a bastard, not a Baratheon, and still supported his rule. He is doing the same for Tommen. He may also be privy to the Bolton plan to force poor Jeyne to marry Ramsay. Yes, women are forced into marriages all the time. But those who think Jaime is a champion for women should do a rethink. He’s rotten to the core.