What Jon Snow Should Have Done When He Received The Pink Letter

[Amris]

I am baffled by the Jon - hate in this thread.

Yes, like Dany (and all of GRRM's characters) Jon is a flawed character. But aside from his faults he has his strong sides too (also like Dany) and he did some very important things for the Nights Watch:

1) Jon got sorely needed additional manpower for the Wall

By letting the wildlings through Jon killed three birds with one stone:

- he deprived the Others of additional ice zombies because the wildlings that made it through the wall cannot be zombified on the other side and then sent against the wall by the Others.

- he added much needed manpower to the Wall's defense by manning a fort with wildling warriors. This is even more important than denying the other side this same manpower. That's because a fighter ontop of a battlement is worth several times that of one having to assault said battlement. The importance of this additional manpower for the Wall can't be overstated, stretched as the NW was prior to this.

- lastly saving the Wildlings also was the the morally right thing to do. That's icing on the cake.

2) Jon secured much needed additonal supplies for the wall in his deal with that Iron Bank character whose name I can't remember at the moment. The importance of these supplies can't be overstated either! It is absolutely essential with the hard winter about to start.

3) Jon gave very good advice to Stannis' campaign and his attack on Deepwood Motte and how to attract additional northmen fighters to his side.

4) Jon got rid of Janos Slynt

Another very important accomplishment. You guys who denigrate this decision don't understand anything. Janos Slynt was an accident waiting to happen. Or rather he was mutiny on two feet waiting to happen. This guy had to be taken out of circulation pronto. That Slynt had killed Ned and had it coming is icing on the cake but not important. The important thing was: This guy HAD TO BE KILLED. He would have been very bad news if allowed to stay alive. Any halfways believable reason to get rid of him had to be taken. Jon understood this and made the right decision. And Jon managed to get a pretty convincing reason too. Job well done.

***

Now I am with you guys that Jon also did make serious mistakes.

1) I don't like the decision to allow Mance and his spearwife-platoon to Winterfell either because of the risk it posed to the Night Watch's integrity if the thing went off the rails (which it apparently did though we can't be sure yet since we aren't 100% sure who sent the Pink Letter and why).

2) I also am not happy with Jon starting a mutiny himself by stating he wanted to campaign against Ramsay in Winterfell. Although I do like Jon as a character I think that Marsh & Co had very good reason to take him out.

3) I am displeased that Jon let himself be goaded by the words of the PL when simply calling Ramsay's bluff would have been much safer. If Jon had simply refused to bow to Ramsay (but without attacking him) Ramsay would have been in the bad position to

-  either looking weak by letting it go despite his earlier boasting in the PL,

- or to attack the Night's Watch himself, thereby transgressing against the law in a way that can't be overlooked by anyone on the whole continent and forcing the NW to fight on Jon's side (together with the Wildlings).

Alas, our dear author wanted drama - so he wrote drama, even if it meant Jon making a very illogical decision here. GRRM did the same to Ned and to Rob. It is his way of storytelling. We have to live with it.

Don't let Jon's mistakes make you overlook his accomplishments though: adding manpower and ordering additional supplies (1 and 2 above) are both absolutely crucial in the situation that pertains in the books. If we had someone as unimaginative as Marsh or as blinded by personal ambition as Janos Flynt in command the NW would have neither. The war would have been lost before it even started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

4 hours ago, Amris said:

I am baffled by the Jon - hate in this thread.

Yes, like Dany (and all of GRRM's characters) Jon is a flawed character. But aside from his faults he has his strong sides too (also like Dany) and he did some very important things for the Nights Watch:

1) Jon got sorely needed additional manpower for the Wall

By letting the wildlings through Jon killed three birds with one stone:

- he deprived the Others of additional ice zombies because the wildlings that made it through the wall cannot be zombified on the other side and then sent against the wall by the Others.

- he added much needed manpower to the Wall's defense by manning a fort with wildling warriors. This is even more important than denying the other side this same manpower. That's because a fighter ontop of a battlement is worth several times that of one having to assault said battlement. The importance of this additional manpower for the Wall can't be overstated, stretched as the NW was prior to this.

- lastly saving the Wildlings also was the the morally right thing to do. That's icing on the cake.

2) Jon secured much needed additonal supplies for the wall in his deal with that Iron Bank character whose name I can't remember at the moment. The importance of these supplies can't be overstated either! It is absolutely essential with the hard winter about to start.

3) Jon gave very good advice to Stannis' campaign and his attack on Deepwood Motte and how to attract additional northmen fighters to his side.

4) Jon got rid of Janos Slynt

Another very important accomplishment. You guys who denigrate this decision don't understand anything. Janos Slynt was an accident waiting to happen. Or rather he was mutiny on two feet waiting to happen. This guy had to be taken out of circulation pronto. That Slynt had killed Ned and had it coming is icing on the cake but not important. The important thing was: This guy HAD TO BE KILLED. He would have been very bad news if allowed to stay alive. Any halfways believable reason to get rid of him had to be taken. Jon understood this and made the right decision. And Jon managed to get a pretty convincing reason too. Job well done.

***

Now I am with you guys that Jon also did make serious mistakes.

1) I don't like the decision to allow Mance and his spearwife-platoon to Winterfell either because of the risk it posed to the Night Watch's integrity if the thing went off the rails (which it apparently did though we can't be sure yet since we aren't 100% sure who sent the Pink Letter and why).

2) I also am not happy with Jon starting a mutiny himself by stating he wanted to campaign against Ramsay in Winterfell. Although I do like Jon as a character I think that Marsh & Co had very good reason to take him out.

3) I am displeased that Jon let himself be goaded by the words of the PL when simply calling Ramsay's bluff would have been much safer. If Jon had simply refused to bow to Ramsay (but without attacking him) Ramsay would have been in the bad position to

-  either looking weak by letting it go despite his earlier boasting in the PL,

- or to attack the Night's Watch himself, thereby transgressing against the law in a way that can't be overlooked by anyone on the whole continent and forcing the NW to fight on Jon's side (together with the Wildlings).

Alas, our dear author wanted drama - so he wrote drama, even if it meant Jon making a very illogical decision here. GRRM did the same to Ned and to Rob. It is his way of storytelling. We have to live with it.

Don't let Jon's mistakes make you overlook his accomplishments though: adding manpower and ordering additional supplies (1 and 2 above) are both absolutely crucial in the situation that pertains in the books. If we had someone as unimaginative as Marsh or as blinded by personal ambition as Janos Flynt in command the NW would have neither. The war would have been lost before it even started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. Bro this forum has so much Stark hate idk why

[Jaenara Belarys]

23 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Agreed. Bro this forum has so much Stark hate idk why

People have opinions. This is known. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

6 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Agreed. Bro this forum has so much Stark hate idk why

If there is dany hate there will be stark hate. 

10 hours ago, Amris said:

I am baffled by the Jon - hate in this thread.

Yes, like Dany (and all of GRRM's characters) Jon is a flawed character. But aside from his faults he has his strong sides too (also like Dany) and he did some very important things for the Nights Watch:

1) Jon got sorely needed additional manpower for the Wall

By letting the wildlings through Jon killed three birds with one stone:

- he deprived the Others of additional ice zombies because the wildlings that made it through the wall cannot be zombified on the other side and then sent against the wall by the Others.

- he added much needed manpower to the Wall's defense by manning a fort with wildling warriors. This is even more important than denying the other side this same manpower. That's because a fighter ontop of a battlement is worth several times that of one having to assault said battlement. The importance of this additional manpower for the Wall can't be overstated, stretched as the NW was prior to this.

- lastly saving the Wildlings also was the the morally right thing to do. That's icing on the cake.

2) Jon secured much needed additonal supplies for the wall in his deal with that Iron Bank character whose name I can't remember at the moment. The importance of these supplies can't be overstated either! It is absolutely essential with the hard winter about to start.

3) Jon gave very good advice to Stannis' campaign and his attack on Deepwood Motte and how to attract additional northmen fighters to his side.

4) Jon got rid of Janos Slynt

Another very important accomplishment. You guys who denigrate this decision don't understand anything. Janos Slynt was an accident waiting to happen. Or rather he was mutiny on two feet waiting to happen. This guy had to be taken out of circulation pronto. That Slynt had killed Ned and had it coming is icing on the cake but not important. The important thing was: This guy HAD TO BE KILLED. He would have been very bad news if allowed to stay alive. Any halfways believable reason to get rid of him had to be taken. Jon understood this and made the right decision. And Jon managed to get a pretty convincing reason too. Job well done.

***

Now I am with you guys that Jon also did make serious mistakes.

1) I don't like the decision to allow Mance and his spearwife-platoon to Winterfell either because of the risk it posed to the Night Watch's integrity if the thing went off the rails (which it apparently did though we can't be sure yet since we aren't 100% sure who sent the Pink Letter and why).

2) I also am not happy with Jon starting a mutiny himself by stating he wanted to campaign against Ramsay in Winterfell. Although I do like Jon as a character I think that Marsh & Co had very good reason to take him out.

3) I am displeased that Jon let himself be goaded by the words of the PL when simply calling Ramsay's bluff would have been much safer. If Jon had simply refused to bow to Ramsay (but without attacking him) Ramsay would have been in the bad position to

-  either looking weak by letting it go despite his earlier boasting in the PL,

- or to attack the Night's Watch himself, thereby transgressing against the law in a way that can't be overlooked by anyone on the whole continent and forcing the NW to fight on Jon's side (together with the Wildlings).

Alas, our dear author wanted drama - so he wrote drama, even if it meant Jon making a very illogical decision here. GRRM did the same to Ned and to Rob. It is his way of storytelling. We have to live with it.

Don't let Jon's mistakes make you overlook his accomplishments though: adding manpower and ordering additional supplies (1 and 2 above) are both absolutely crucial in the situation that pertains in the books. If we had someone as unimaginative as Marsh or as blinded by personal ambition as Janos Flynt in command the NW would have neither. The war would have been lost before it even started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The biggest difference between jon and dany is that dany is still alive and may even rise while jon is currently dead. Executing janos slynt was wrong , what was his crime? Any crime he had committed prior to joining the watch has been erased. If he is to be executed for disobeying an order then jon should also execute himself he also disobeyed orders. 

And what makes me hate Jon is the fact that he was ready to kill a baby. He seperated a mother from her child and tricked stannis as well. 

Jon is similar to cersei since both ended up as poor rulers. Lets compare the two of them to dany

1) Dany accomplished a peace(though it was not one she had been hoping for). Cersei maintained the peace and only plotted against her enemies she didn't take arms. Jon broke the oaths of the nights watch and destroyed any peace there was. 

2) Dany flew away on drogon and is now meeting a khalsar in a position of power, Cersei ended up in prison but she used her brains and got out(Though she is now powerless). Jon is dead

Thus dany>Cersei>Jon

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

10 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If there is dany hate there will be stark hate. 

The biggest difference between jon and dany is that dany is still alive and may even rise while jon is currently dead. Executing janos slynt was wrong , what was his crime? Any crime he had committed prior to joining the watch has been erased. If he is to be executed for disobeying an order then jon should also execute himself he also disobeyed orders. 

And what makes me hate Jon is the fact that he was ready to kill a baby. He seperated a mother from her child and tricked stannis as well. 

Jon is similar to cersei since both ended up as poor rulers. Lets compare the two of them to dany

1) Dany accomplished a peace(though it was not one she had been hoping for). Cersei maintained the peace and only plotted against her enemies she didn't take arms. Jon broke the oaths of the nights watch and destroyed any peace there was. 

2) Dany flew away on drogon and is now meeting a khalsar in a position of power, Cersei ended up in prison but she used her brains and got out(Though she is now powerless). Jon is dead

Thus dany>Cersei>Jon

BRUH. Dany let the Yunkai absolutely fuck over all the work she accomplished in 2 weeks. She let them continue slaving and let them raise massive armies. As soon as Yunkai was reported raising armies, she should have commanded Lord Selmy and Grey Worm to take her massive army and sack Yunkai. That would have got rid of all her problems. Then, Dany should have sent the heads of all the Yunkish leaders to New Ghis and Volantis as warnings. If the New Ghis and Volantis wanted to fight, by the time they reached Dany, Drogon Viserion and Rhaegal would have torched them and left no survivors.The one moment Dany should have been bloodthirsty and belligerent, she wants to lick Yunkai’s feet.

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

BRUH. Dany let the Yunkai absolutely fuck over all the work she accomplished in 2 weeks. She let them continue slaving and let them raise massive armies. As soon as Yunkai was reported raising armies, she should have commanded Lord Selmy and Grey Worm to take her massive army and sack Yunkai. That would have got rid of all her problems. Then, Dany should have sent the heads of all the Yunkish leaders to New Ghis and Volantis as warnings. If the New Ghis and Volantis wanted to fight, by the time they reached Dany, Drogon Viserion and Rhaegal would have torched them and left no survivors.The one moment Dany should have been bloodthirsty and belligerent, she wants to lick Yunkai’s feet.

I suppose the freedmen in the show got it right. They said, "Kill the masters."

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:30 PM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

 

 

Yes, slynt didn't follow his orders to go to Greyguard. Jon shows no contempt towards Slynt nor Alliser when he orders this.

Jon basically set up Slynt for an execution. There was malice behind that long face. It was revenge.  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

16 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

And what makes me hate Jon is the fact that he was ready to kill a baby. He seperated a mother from her child and tricked stannis as well.

Which baby was Jon going to kill again? I guess you hate Dany for Hazzea's death too then and for tricking the Yunkai slavers.  Personally I think they're both trying to do the best they can with the situation they're in, but that could be because I'm just not remembering something - I would have troubles with anyone intentionally killing a baby