Covid-19 #39: Shooting the Messenger

[Padraig]

3 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Mum’s ill too. Hopefully managed to bully her into getting a test. If she’s positive I’ll need to go there to make sure she’s okay, but that means I won’t be that easily accessible to help sister. Well we are going to have a fun next two weeks, aren’t we? 

Sorry to hear that.  Could she have just picked up the flu from your sister?

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Insofar as there have been objective studies it appears to be true https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Yes.  There does seem to be a few things that have gained acceptance over the last few months. 

1) Infection gives you better immunity (but the best immunity was never the main goal of vaccination.  Prevention of serious illness was the main goal and stopping the spread of the disease was a secondary one.  Both have been achieved, especially the first).

2) Vaccines do seem to deteriorate, although Moderna deteriorates less.

The case for boosters hasn't been as widely accepted though, as people aren't sure how big a loss in effectiveness is occuring versus serious illness. 

I see Spain is now up to 80% of its total population being at least partly vaccinated.  Impressive.  They continue to see major decline in cases also, so good to see.  And Novavax has delayed its application again it seems.  I'm beginning to think Sanofi/GSK may actually get their very belated vaccine across the finish line next.  They shouldn't have any of Novavax's production problems, given their already existing scale.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

And in Germany we have a covidiot turned murderer.

A 20 y.o. studen who was working the night shift at a gas station has been shot in the head by a a 49 y.o.  corona denier over the mask mandate.

The man wanted to buy some beer, but was turned away, because he wasn't wearing a mask. He left returned later wearing a mask. Picked up his beer, pulled down his mask when he was at the cash register to pay for his bear, pulled a gun and shot the poor guy into his head.

Judging by the report over his social media activity a proper right wing loon, who fantasized over going to war, and was following all the right folks on social media.

Can't those loons just catch covid and drop dead?

[Pebble thats Stubby]

1 minute ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

And in Germany we have a covidiot turned murderer.

A 20 y.o. studen who was working the night shift at a gas station has been shot in the head by a a 49 y.o.  corona denier over the mask mandate.

The man wanted to buy some beer, but was turned away, because he wasn't wearing a mask. He left returned later wearing a mask. Picked up his beer, pulled down his mask when he was at the cash register to pay for his bear, pulled a gun and shot the poor guy into his head.

Judging by the report over his social media activity a proper right wing loon, who fantasized over going to war, and was following all the right folks on social media.

Can't those loons just catch covid and drop dead?

I think this is the same story @Luzifer's right hand was talking about at the end of the last threadlet.  Unless this happened again.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

28 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I think this is the same story @Luzifer's right hand was talking about at the end of the last threadlet.  Unless this happened again.

 

Oops, yeah. My bad. Only skimmed through the first four pages of this thread and didn't bother to check the previous one.

[sologdin]

Current Marxists actually think antisocial lumpen can be integrated back into society? Things have changed since the 1860s

my marxism is substantially amended from the mid-century version.  that's nothing irregular--it's not an ossified fixture, like scripture (even if some parties in power have sought to cement it in place).  we need not be stuck with things said in the 19th century simply because the big beard wrote it.  it's rather an internally contested system of ideas, constantly engaged in heteroglot development, continually enlarged by new contributions.  certainly my beliefs evolve as time goes on--and here i think i'm trying to uncover a basis for political sympathy for the lumpenized antisocial nihilist, who otherwise is the arch-nemesis of my cosmology. maybe i've become soft in believing that no one is irredeemable--quite a change from 20 years ago, when i'm sure i believed that hanging fascists for being fascists is acceptable.  

 

talking people who believe satanists are stalking the schools and eating children RIGHT NOW, and whose life mission was to fight them -- until he found the worse conspiracy of covid.

qanon doctrine is a subset of a larger far right irrationalism that overlaps significantly with anti-vaccination pseudoscience, itself generated in part by that same far right irrationalism. a component of anti-vaccination politics is nevertheless independent of irrationalism.  my sister for instance is a MoN/NP and committed leftist, but she has declined the vaccination on the basis of her interpretation of the authorization for emergency use and related medical science debates.  she thinks that reasonable people can disagree on the question of when freeriding of others' bearing the risk of immunization side effects becomes unacceptable in this particular conjuncture where the knowledge regarding asymptomatic transmission is in a similar state of flux.  this has nothing to do with the basic liberal political objections to mandatory public health interventions or the conspiracism; it is very much engaged with the science, even if it is ultimately wrong. i happen to come down on the other side of the debate than her on this question, but am not willing to send her to gulag on the basis of the disagreement. similarly, though corrective labor for qanonites may do them some good on a personal basis, as they plainly have too much time on their hands and are irresponsible market participants, am not agreeable to a carceral state.

 

Your avatar makes me dizzy.

yeah, it got fucked up.  thanks for reminding me to fix it.  and thanks for the stalin joke--hadn't heard that one.

[The Anti-Targ]

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I participated in a Swine Flu party when it was a thing, but I only caught labial herpes

How things are going in NZ? I haven't followed things closely. Does elimination is still on the table?

 

 

5 hours ago, Makk said:

Only if we're lucky. Went to full lock down, things looked under control but were never able to stop having no infectious people in the community before they tested. Went on between 10-30 cases for about 3 weeks before dropping to a slightly less restrictive level. We don't get full information about the community cases but I strongly suspect it was due to a lack of compliance. It has spread to 3 different major criminal gangs, so good luck with that now. Only real good news is that the vaccine is now available to everyone over 12 and rollout has been pretty good. Before the outbreak only around 15% of the country had been fully vaccinated. 

It would require gang leaders to give a crap about their members and families, and to crack heads if members have been spreading it around. Which is not implausible, but also far from assured. They are criminals, often violent, and won't cooperate with govt agencies under virtually any circumstances, but that doesn't automatically make them Covidiots or anti-vaxxers. So at least there's a chance they will attempt to not be the unintended villains of the piece. When you are a criminal you want to actually get something out of it that benefits you, not sure what benefit the gangs would see in being the reason NZ has to start living with COVID before we (and they) are really ready for it. Here's hoping they will go to their local marae to get the jab and be tested, that way they can do the right thing at the same time as only interacting with an institution and people they do respect. Even non-Maori gangs will cooperatively engage with tribal institutions...well except for the white supremacists, but they are mostly in the South Island where there's no COVID.

[Kalbear]

8 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I don't know that's true at all. And I doubt the thought process behind this idiocy was that sophisticated. 

The notion that immunity is stronger or weaker is a very weird place to be given the word 'immune' .

Also, the 'fuck them, let them die camp is one I am usually happy with, but I've seen the shit that these people are doing to the hospital staff too, and I don't think it is reasonable as a society to refuse to treat idiots when they are idiots. 

 

[RhaenysBee]

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

Sorry to hear that.  Could she have just picked up the flu from your sister?

 

Thanks. I don’t think so, I don’t think they’ve seen each other in person recently. I saw her last weekend but I’m fine. Maybe she picked it up in public. I just hope “it” is a bug or cold or regular flu. 

[Zorral]

35 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Maybe she picked it up in public. I just hope “it” is a bug or cold or regular flu.

It could well be. Colds seem to be hitting people here and in Europe very hard this fall, They Say, due to so many of us masking, washing and isolating/distancing for months.  Now that people aren't, they are getting colds and flu.

I don't know, of course, but I am hearing it anecdotally from many that we know.

 What I do know is how great it has been not having had either a cold or flu since October 2019!

[DireWolfSpirit]

6 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

If she’s positive I’ll need to go there to make sure she’s okay

Between mother and sister, I'd be too scared to be in direct contact with either of them if they are having symptons.

Nothing good can come of all three of you going down. I'd probably just leave them a bag of necessities on the porch or something and limit contact to the phone.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Insofar as there have been objective studies it appears to be true https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

It is also plausible on the basis of general a understanding of immunology. That natural infection can confer better post-infection immunity than a vaccine is not a controversial statement.

It doesn't take much more than a few Facebook posts for people to leap to bad conclusions about these findings. So no real sophistication necessary to lead certain people into thinking a Delta party is a good idea.

 

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

Yes.  There does seem to be a few things that have gained acceptance over the last few months. 

1) Infection gives you better immunity (but the best immunity was never the main goal of vaccination.  Prevention of serious illness was the main goal and stopping the spread of the disease was a secondary one.  Both have been achieved, especially the first).

2) Vaccines do seem to deteriorate, although Moderna deteriorates less.

The case for boosters hasn't been as widely accepted though, as people aren't sure how big a loss in effectiveness is occuring versus serious illness. 

I see Spain is now up to 80% of its total population being at least partly vaccinated.  Impressive.  They continue to see major decline in cases also, so good to see.  And Novavax has delayed its application again it seems.  I'm beginning to think Sanofi/GSK may actually get their very belated vaccine across the finish line next.  They shouldn't have any of Novavax's production problems, given their already existing scale.

Infection also has a much greater chance of killing you. Of leaving you disabled. Like several orders of magnitude greater.

Did they test the immune response in people who mixed vaccines? What happens if you get two shots and then get a mild case of Covid, which is more likely if you are vaccinated, as the current hospitalization data suggest? 

The best way to deal with this is to achieve an 85+% vaccination threshold for the population as a whole, with as little variation as possible based on geographic region and age cohort. Vaccination involves group dynamics, not just individual choice.

As for the Covidiot party goers, Edson isn't a big place. If a few of them die because of their little pestilence soiree, It'll get around. Never mind that some of these clowns probably gave it to other Edson are residents before they got the ambulance to Edmonton. It might even spur more people in that area to get vaccinated.  

[Kalbear]

Infection also has the likely effect of getting other people sick. 

Just so very dumb. 

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

What happens if you get two shots and then get a mild case of Covid, which is more likely if you are vaccinated, as the current hospitalization data suggest? 

I don't quite get that.  If you get 2 shots and you still get infected, you are much more likely to be a mild case.  Is that what you meant?  Then yes!

Really, I don't see any real point in comparing the immune responses.  Apples and oranges.  Except, for suggesting that the vaccines can probably be improved (which is not surprising either, given the speed in which they were developed).

I need to correct my Novavax comment though.  It has filed for approval with the WHO today.  Not sure how long that will take.  (They had already filed in India but apparently Indian approval was tied to FDA approval, so that wasn't going to go anywhere quick.  Going to the WHO may sidestep that issue).

The UK's Health Secretary answer to a question on Valnea has now been corrected on the official parliamentary record to remove the phrase “would not get approval”, replacing it with “has not yet gained approval... and may not”.  Hilarious.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/valneva-expands-trials-on-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-1.4681742

The EMA in the EU will give its views on boosters in early October.  It will be interesting to see is it consistent with the FDA.

[Fragile Bird]

On a happier note, the chief medical officer of Canada announced we now have 80% of the eligible population (age 12 and up) fully vaccinated.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

I don't quite get that.  If you get 2 shots and you still get infected, you are much more likely to be a mild case.  Is that what you meant?  Then yes!

Really, I don't see any real point in comparing the immune responses.  Apples and oranges.  Except, for suggesting that the vaccines can probably be improved (which is not surprising either, given the speed in which they were developed).

Right, and getting a breakthrough infection after two doses of vaccine; does that result in Super-Duper-Jedi-Ninja-Immunity^(TM)? How about if I get two doses and intentionally inject myself with a dose of the live virus? The possibilities are endless. Has that paper even been defended outside of peer review?

And I'll say again, the rationale for this was not that sophisticated. "Hey, today I saw something on PubMed.." is a phrase that has never passed the lips of these morons. More like, "Since the neighbors ate the last of the horse paste, we could try having a party like we used to have when I was a kid..."

My point is that intentionally infecting ones self to achieve immunity is a really dumb idea. The idiocy multiplies when it becomes a conspiracy of morons. It has been demonstrated that it's a really dumb idea. We have a textbook example of how its a dumb idea. As @BigFatCoward suggested, nearly two years and this shit is still happening? I would have no problem if those idiots from Edson arrived at an Edmonton hospital and got turned away. "Sorry folks. We're full up. Try Calgary." 

[Zorral]

Speaking of horse paste above, as we do, here's some more:

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, sologdin said:

 

yeah, it got fucked up.  thanks for reminding me to fix it.  and thanks for the stalin joke--hadn't heard that one.

I heard it on the somewhat  left leaning "Well There's Your Problem" podcast I think.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Speaking of horse paste above, as we do, here's some more:

Oh, yeah. I totally expect there could be a mass shooting at a hospital in the US before this is done. At the very least a doctor or a nurse somewhere will catch one because of one of these yahoos. Violent video games will be blamed, for sure. 

There will be more of this. 

Edit: Also, the American north west was a hotbed of anti-vax sentiment long before Covid-19 came along. 

[KingintheNorth4]

My Uncle might be released from physical rehab this weekend. He will still need 24 hour supervision though, as he still has some upper body weakness.

[Zorral]

12 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

the American north west was a hotbed of anti-vax sentiment long before Covid-19 came along.

This is true.  Idaho is paradise for a long time for the cruel, the ignorant and the deranged.  I know! Let's all move to Idaho and establish the Aryan Nation!  (And hoard cans and bullets, and keep lots of wimmen chained in our caves.)

Though ... never was aware previously they lurved horse paste . . . .