US Politics: Don't Manchin the war...

[A True Kaniggit]

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Arizona has been trending blue for quite awhile now. It’s not a state where Trump won by 23 points like WV is.

 

The word “Trending” is doing a lot of heavy lifting right here. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yes we do.

How else would we pass these bills?

The point is she's replaceable. Manchin isn't.

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

Cool, just wanted to clear up that it's completely your own fantasy.  And I'm not seeing how Manchin is any meatshield for her, her own state's Dem party is livid.  

It is funny thiugh that someone would think that she never would have thought to do this if it wasn't for Manchin.  

It's always easier to be the second person to walk away. We can't say for sure if she wouldn't still do it, but you can conclude she'd probably be less likely to do it if someone hadn't done it first. 

44 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Coming out of my self imposed exile to remind you all that Tywin's idea of good negotiating is putting out an already gutted offer that you think your opposition will accept, then when they say no, because they are demons and know they can get even more concessions, you piss your pants and do whatever they want.

As opposed to offering something that's DoA and then running on it still after the fact? Okay....

And this is still a complete misrepresentation of everything I've written here. I suggested putting out a slightly smaller bill, far larger than anything that's going to actually pass fyi, and a lot of people here on the left still flipped their shit. Which is weird because it's still more than anything you'd get if you had it your way. 

[A True Kaniggit]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The point is she's replaceable. Manchin isn't.

The point is we need her vote right the hell now.

Edit: Or do you think 2028/2032 is soon enough for another trifecta?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The point is we need her vote right the hell now.

And how would you achieve that, within reason, given everything we know, both about the situation and about her?

[A True Kaniggit]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And how would you achieve that, within reason, given everything we know, both about the situation and about her?

Fuck if I know. I never claimed I could. 
 

You are the one spiking a football in the endzone prematurely based on a “What if?”.

[GrimTuesday]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The point is she's replaceable. Manchin isn't.

It's always easier to be the second person to walk away. We can't say for sure if she wouldn't still do it, but you can conclude she'd probably be less likely to do it if someone hadn't done it first. 

As opposed to offering something that's DoA and then running on it still after the fact? Okay....

And this is still a complete misrepresentation of everything I've written here. I suggested putting out a slightly smaller bill, far larger than anything that's going to actually pass fyi, and a lot of people here on the left still flipped their shit. Which is weird because it's still more than anything you'd get if you had it your way. 

Your solution just leads to anemic programs that is so underfunded that it renders it ineffective and exists for the political class to clap themselves on the  back and declare mission accomplished. This is not incrementalism, this is performative marginalism that looks good on paper but doesn't actually provide any material benefit to anything or anyone besides making keyboard political masterminds look like big brain geniuses.

Also, why would the Progressives put out a smaller bill when we had Manchin going out saying he would support 4 trillion in infrastructure just a few months ago or has he been negotiating in bad faith, the whole fucking time. We've gone over this a million times, but what point is there in offering an already compromised bill when you know that even that compromised bill is gonna get gutted? Start from the top, and then negotiate from there.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Your solution just leads to anemic programs that is so underfunded that it renders it ineffective and exists for the political class to clap themselves on the  back and declare mission accomplished. This is not incrementalism, this is performative marginalism that looks good on paper but doesn't actually provide any material benefit to anything or anyone besides making keyboard political masterminds look like big brain geniuses.

Also, why would the Progressives put out a smaller bill when we had Manchin going out saying he would support 4 trillion in infrastructure just a few months ago or has he been negotiating in bad faith, the whole fucking time. We've gone over this a million times, but what point is there in offering an already compromised bill when you know that even that compromised bill is gonna get gutted? Start from the top, and then negotiate from there.

 

Before I fully respond, I just want to make sure we're on the same page. You do realize the solution I advocated for is likely more progressive than the one progressives will ultimately have to vote for, right? And if so, given your language, what does that make them?

[Kalbear]

This continued thread really does make me want to ensure that whatever tywin wants he doesn't get. I'm not sure what that is any more but I hope it doesn't happen.

[Jace, Extat]

 

[A True Kaniggit]

13 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

This continued thread really does make me want to ensure that whatever tywin wants he doesn't get. I'm not sure what that is any more but I hope it doesn't happen.

Thank you. At least someone else gets it.

Dammit! The rest of my joke has already been ruined by Republicans. 

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

This continued thread really does make me want to ensure that whatever tywin wants he doesn't get. I'm not sure what that is any more but I hope it doesn't happen.

What I want is for both bills to pass and to have a functioning Democratic party. If you want the opposite, this thread is your friend. 

[A True Kaniggit]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What I want is for both bills to pass and to have a functioning Democratic party. If you want the opposite, this thread is your friend. 

“What I want is for both bills to pass”

But in what minimum form? If the reconciliation bill gets cut down to uselessness, then this statement is meaningless. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

“What I want is for both bills to pass”

But in what minimum form? If the reconciliation bill gets cut down to uselessness, then this statement is meaningless. 

$1.9T-$2.3T plus another $1.2T is meaningless to you? Listen to yourself. That's absurd. Democrats should be dancing in the street over that. But instead so many are angry that's all they're getting. Does that make any sense, especially when you consider there are simply not the votes for the sun and the stars?

[A True Kaniggit]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

$1.9T-$2.3T plus another $1.2T is meaningless to you? Listen to yourself. That's absurd. Democrats should be dancing in the street over that. But instead so many are angry that's all they're getting. Does that make any sense, especially when you consider there are simply not the votes for the sun and the stars?

Yes. I’ll expand on this later.

[Martell Spy]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

What I want is for both bills to pass and to have a functioning Democratic party. If you want the opposite, this thread is your friend. 

I am not a member of any organized party. I am a Democrat.

[GrimTuesday]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Before I fully respond, I just want to make sure we're on the same page. You do realize the solution I advocated for is likely more progressive than the one progressives will ultimately have to vote for, right? And if so, given your language, what does that make them?

Nah man, let me preface this with the fact that I am super intoxicated having drank most of a handle of Bacardi (I wasn't paying for it ) in the last 4 hours and as such have very little filter, but I do not think that you are in any way progressive. You are utterly morally bankrupt of any progressive leanings and only use it as a cover to pretend that you haven't compromised any progressive leanings to the point that you  may have once had to the point that you are indistinguishable from the neo-liberal rot that has utterly destroyed any left wing movement that actually would have actually helped anyone in the last 20 years. you spend so much time patting yourself on the back because you worked for Amy  Klobuchar, (seriously, stop wrapping yourself in the legacy of a great man like Paul Wellstone, you are an utter disgrace to his memory) that you have contracted the same brain worms that have plagued the Democratic party since the days of Jimmy Carter. There is no compromising with these people, there is only an ideological war for the heart of the Democratic party between those who actually want to help people, and those who think that providing marginal, bordering on the utterly inconsequential, improvements of the lives of their fellow human beings while stroking their own egos is a solution in and of itself.

You are not a progressive, you are not "left of Marx" As I believe you have said (once again, I've drank most of a half gallon of rum so forgive me if I am misquoting your asinine defense of your own hypocrisy) You are simply a cynical coward who is so afraid of a real fight that you are content with reassuring yourself that you have not sold out every principle you may one have held for the self assurance that you are the big brained genius who knows more than all these stupid people who actually experience the misery of being working class without the fortune of being born into a good spawn point and going to work for one of the most most vile industries that one could work for (the healthcare industry). You are utterly compromised by your own arrogance and do not understand the needs of the average person anymore, if you ever did.

I don't care if I get mod action for this, I understand this may be considered a personal attack, because in March I had to bury my little brother at the age of 27 because he could not afford the life saving medication that would have kept him in perfect health despite the congenital heart condition that killed him, I'm done pretending people like you do not have blood on their hands just the same as the Republicans and corporate Democrats that have stood in the way of meaningful progress because their corporate masters dictate that they turn a blind eye to the suffering and loss of real people.

[ants]

19 hours ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

What you want to do is go back a couple of pages and watch the Ro Khanna clip I posted of him in on Anderson Cooper (I believe). The clip is about 2 days old now, but he said, "We've already negotiated--significantly--down to 3.5 trillion." 

I've already said I'm fine with what the progressives have done, and are doing. My issue was with your statement that the progressives should let it go for nothing and the Dems should cut Manchina out of the party. Which I think would be a ridiculous strategy. 

..

The one thing I do think the progressives should have done is said that they should have decided on certain programs/parts, and said, we're drawing the red-line on these. These are fully funded. Manchin won't pass more than 1.5T, fine. But then the 1.5T goes to these programs and they're done properly. And the bits which aren't are a wasteland, but at least what is done is done right. 

But at the end of the day, if one or both of Manchema are willing to tank the bill if they don't get what they want, fundamentally nobody else has any true bargaining power. 

14 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Pretty simple, it doesn’t hurt her in AZ. She can say she stood up to reckless liberal spending. She’s wrong, let that be clear, but it’s a good talking point back home.

(How many times has Arizona gone blue in the last 10 presidential elections?)

It was posted earlier but she was (is?) underperformed a generic Democrat in AZ. So you could replace her with a generic Democrat and they'd be expected to do better.

Of course, other than as a threat to try and bring her into line, primarying her doesn't do anything to help with the current situation. 

[GrimTuesday]

For the record, my drunk ass is cool with a 1.5 trillion reconciliation bill if it all goes towards murdering the coal industry and setting up publicly owned government run wind turbine manufacturing plants in West Virginia that hires out of work coal miners. I also hope Joe Manchin's house boat/yacht sinks to the bottom of the DC harbor.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I think if Democrats had followed ty's advice, this would've been the most likely outcome.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I think if Democrats had followed ty's advice, this would've been the most likely outcome.

 

 

Nah, if they followed my advice they would have been where they are today back in August. Just as one example, do people not find it problematic that the key parties involved in all of this simply won't talk to one another? They can't even get into a room and negotiate, so they're doing it through the media which is never a good thing when working with members of your own party...

3 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Nah man, let me preface this with the fact that I am super intoxicated having drank most of a handle of Bacardi (I wasn't paying for it ) in the last 4 hours and as such have very little filter, but I do not think that you are in any way progressive. You are utterly morally bankrupt of any progressive leanings and only use it as a cover to pretend that you haven't compromised any progressive leanings to the point that you  may have once had to the point that you are indistinguishable from the neo-liberal rot that has utterly destroyed any left wing movement that actually would have actually helped anyone in the last 20 years. you spend so much time patting yourself on the back because you worked for Amy  Klobuchar, (seriously, stop wrapping yourself in the legacy of a great man like Paul Wellstone, you are an utter disgrace to his memory) that you have contracted the same brain worms that have plagued the Democratic party since the days of Jimmy Carter. There is no compromising with these people, there is only an ideological war for the heart of the Democratic party between those who actually want to help people, and those who think that providing marginal, bordering on the utterly inconsequential, improvements of the lives of their fellow human beings while stroking their own egos is a solution in and of itself.

You are not a progressive, you are not "left of Marx" As I believe you have said (once again, I've drank most of a half gallon of rum so forgive me if I am misquoting your asinine defense of your own hypocrisy) You are simply a cynical coward who is so afraid of a real fight that you are content with reassuring yourself that you have not sold out every principle you may one have held for the self assurance that you are the big brained genius who knows more than all these stupid people who actually experience the misery of being working class without the fortune of being born into a good spawn point and going to work for one of the most most vile industries that one could work for (the healthcare industry). You are utterly compromised by your own arrogance and do not understand the needs of the average person anymore, if you ever did.

I don't care if I get mod action for this, I understand this may be considered a personal attack, because in March I had to bury my little brother at the age of 27 because he could not afford the life saving medication that would have kept him in perfect health despite the congenital heart condition that killed him, I'm done pretending people like you do not have blood on their hands just the same as the Republicans and corporate Democrats that have stood in the way of meaningful progress because their corporate masters dictate that they turn a blind eye to the suffering and loss of real people.

Well there's obviously a lot to tackle here, and I'll address most of it later, but first and foremost, sorry about the loss of your brother. And no, I don't think you should get in trouble with the mods, but it may not be wise to get that smashed and post on the internet in general.