Stannis - The One True Night King

[Mighthearmeroar]

 

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”I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. - Tywin Lannister, A Game of Thrones”

 

 

A thought struck me just the other day, on a re-read of A Storm of Swords. Something Lord Tywin said, when talking about Stannis.

 

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“Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some.”

 

The bitter end can no doubt be understood as “until death”. That was obviously not what Tywin meant, he was just trying to get old Ancient Pycelle to get the point, but still…in a world where you’d best burn the dead lest they come back to haunt you, well, who knows. Might here be a something more to Tywin’s words?

 

What if all the tales of the Night's King are nothing more than foreshadowing about Stannis Baratheon and what he will become?

I can not remember ever hearing such a theory and decided I would not search for it either. I want mine own thoughts on the matter stand on their own without any undue corruption. And if it all has been tried, tested and debunked before, so be it. Feel free to point it out for me. But for now, bear with me and let's crack some pots!

Who is Stannis Baratheon? Quite a few things, I’d say. Brother to a king, a king himself by all the laws of Gods and men. A stern man, a just man. Fighter, warrior, one for the law, perhaps even a fearless man. One of the first descriptions of the man’s character in the books, comes from his beloved little brother Renly in a Game of Thrones:

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“Lord Renly laughed. “We’re fortunate my brother Stannis is not with us. Remember the time

he proposed to outlaw brothels? The king asked him if perhaps he’d like to outlaw eating,

shitting, and breathing while he was at it. If truth be told, I ofttimes wonder how Stannis ever got

that ugly daughter of his. He goes to his marriage bed like a man marching to a battlefield, with agrim look in his eyes and a determination to do his duty.”

 

A man ahead of time with regards to equality between the sexes. But perhaps not that fun at parties.

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“Here there was no loud laughter, no raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men’s feast: Lord Stannis did not permit such. – Cressen,  A Clash of Kings “

That may be, but the man is droll at times and does have a sense of humor. Calling him humorless is but a vile calumny.

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“That took Lord Janos aback. He smiled uncertainly and began to sweat, but Bowen

Marsh beside him said, “Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once

commanded the gold, sire?” “Any of you, I would think. Even the cook.” – Stannis giving opinions on the functions of Realm’s NGOs.

 

 

I might be getting away from the subject matter mere, methinks. Back on track. Heh.

 Where was I…ah, Stannis and the Night King. Just so. Firstly: who is the Night's King? To be able to compare him to The King This Side of the Wall, we must now what he was like. How is he described? The Night's King is first mentioned by Bran in A Storm of Swords. Bran and company are staying the night at the Night fort and Bran thinks back to some of Old Nan's scary bed time stories:

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”The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stories. It
was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of
man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie,
where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had
been raped and murdered.”

Some thoughts about this quote: According to legend, the Night's King held court at the Nightfort. Fair enough I'd say, the name is fitting But does the fort give the King his name or vice versa? I know not. I find the second line interesting, as well. The story about the Rat Cook has been seen by many as foreshadowing about certain activites of Lord Too-Fat and some certain Freys-To-Be-Cooked. Be that as it may, my thinking is that if one of theses old stories are foreshadowing, why not some of the others? Perhaps all? Oh, and do we know of anyone who is planning to make the Nightfort his seat? Who would want that dreary, dark, rat infested, cursed, ruin? I cannot think of anyone who’d be so foolish….oh.

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“The Nightfort is the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall,” the king said. “That is where I intend to make my seat, whilst I fight this war. You will show me this gate. – Stannis Baratheon, A Storm of Swords”

 

So here is what seems to me an obvious connection between the two. Is there any other mention of a king making his seat at the Nightfort besides Stannis and the Night’s King? Methinks not. Me is perhaps wrong.

In any event. Let's move on. What do we know more about the Night's King? Bran fills us in.

 

 

 

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 ”The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the
thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And
that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was
his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and
eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her,
though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king,
and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years
they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and
Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when
it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been
destroyed, his very name forbidden. Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it’s getting dark.

Points of interest are underlined.

Old Nan then goes on a rant telling Bran how the NK (that's short for Night's King, a name I sometimes think to loathsome to write. And repetition is dull besides) was a Stark but that is beyond the scope of this short essay. (This is my way of saying I disregard this part about the NK, since it doesn't fit my theory.)

 

But what do we have here. A fearless man spies a woman from atop the Wall, he beds her and she takes his soul. He also sacrifies to the Others.

So the Night's King seem like a creepy person. Does it say he is evil by heart? Cruel? A demon in human skin? No. It says he is a warrior without fear, whose downfall is a vile woman. Does it say she is a female Other? No, no, it does not. By the description she seems more like an undead, a corpse queen indeed. The Others are not dead, no, they are living creature. She might well be human. She can't well be dead, even the bravest and randiest man would back off from a putrid corpse. Unless the NK suffered from necrophilia, but I would not think so. Old Nan doesn't mention that, anyways. I assume for the sake of this theory that the NK’s bride is some sort of human. A human with magical abilities, perchance? And Cold. Oh so cold.

Now, do we have any soul sucking women in Westeros that we know of? Lysa Tully perhaps, no, perhaps not. Maggi the Frog? Might be...no, I think rather of

 

 

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Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. - A Clash of Kings, prologue

Yes. Her. That's better. Well that was kind of obvious, I admit. But A Man must make do with what he has. Now I hear you all saying "She is not cold. She is hot in all kinds of ways! The gods have given you the wits they gave a turnip!" Well my friends, when you describe someone as "cold" you don't always mean they are cold of flesh but also that they might be cold of heart. Melisandre can certainly be called that, you will allow me. She more than most is of the opinion that the end justify the means. She also has that undead/immortal aura to her. And she is described as "pale", mark you.

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but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Prologue, A Clash of Kings.

Her eyes are red though, not blue. Guess that could be glamored. But so could her skin, I guess. Well she IS pale. Hmfph. And remember when poor old Cressen put the Strangler in the wine? He died sure enough, but what happend to our dear Shadowbinder?

 

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”His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.
Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes.”

Powerful indeed! Immortal, no, I think not, no more than the Night's King's Corpse-Queen. A living, breathing magic creature, wooer of Kings and immune to poison, it would seem.

The argument that both the NKQ and Melisandre might have magical powers is feeble, I know. But still. We have a man known for courage and power of character and a magical woman many a man consider evil. It's something, I should say. Now many consider Melisandre evil and as having a corrupting influence on Stannis. Her immortality and powers are strongly hinted at by our very own Lord-To-Few-Fingers:

 

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“No jest. I mean to kill her.” If she can be killed by mortal weapons. Davos was not

certain that she could. He had seen old Maester Cressen slip poison into her wine, with

his own eyes he had seen it, but when they both drank from the poisoned cup it was the

maester who died, not the red priestess. A knife in the heart, though . . . even demons can be killed by cold iron, the singers say.”

 

 

Going on. It is more than heavily implied that Stannis and Melisandre share a bad, from time to time. Most people find this reasonable, given who Stannis is married to. But come now, would the prickly proud Stannis Baratheon, utterly unlike his whore mongering brother, be unfaithful to his wife? He doesn’t like women much to begin with. It must have a been a special woman indeed. So this whole taking-soul-and-seed busines this Corpse Queen is up to must be compared to the Shadow Stannises used to murder Renly and whatshisname Penrose.  

 

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“She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbad, sheathed still, but the shadowsword….”Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice.”

Cold indeed. Poor King Copper. So to connect this to my thesis. Stannis, not a man to wander in to other womens beds, beds a wench with magical abilities, creates a chill-inducing shadow ghost assassin that murders his own beloved brother. It does not seem to me to too crackpotty to compare this the Old Nan's description of the Night's King peculiar activities.

 

Now to the matter of sacrificing people to appease the God(s)? Nah. I'm too tired to write more at the moment.

 

So, what do you guys think about my little pot? Cracked or whole?

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

Yeah it's been pretty widely theorised for a long time. It'll happen. He'll sacrifice Shireen proving himself symbolically ice hearted and some shadow and second-life shenanigans will be at play, like getting his shadow self stuck in the wall, and/or being in shadow form when his human body dies. There's going to be an ice dragon too.

I'm more interested now in what happens with Mel, her faith is the source of her nourishment, heat and life. Does she lose her faith and follow Stannis down the path of ice? Or does she have an awakening, keep the faith and try to atone for her mistakes, going out in a blaze of glory?

[Rondo]

The Night's King has to be a Stark.  If there is to be one, it will be Jon Snow or Rickon Stark.  Jon's corpse bride will be Arya.

[Mighthearmeroar]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Yeah it's been pretty widely theorised for a long time. It'll happen. He'll sacrifice Shireen proving himself symbolically ice hearted and some shadow and second-life shenanigans will be at play, like getting his shadow self stuck in the wall, and/or being in shadow form when his human body dies. There's going to be an ice dragon too.

I'm more interested now in what happens with Mel, her faith is the source of her nourishment, heat and life. Does she lose her faith and follow Stannis down the path of ice? Or does she have an awakening, keep the faith and try to atone for her mistakes, going out in a blaze of glory?

Harr! Nothing new under the sun! I don't know about where Mel will end up. Didn't GRRM call her the most misunderstood character in the entire saga? I'll have to think about that.

In the NK story as told by Old Nan, the Free Folk and the Starks of Winterfell band together to bring the NK low. I can see that happening in the books. If perchance the the Grand Northern Conspiracy proves true and Lord Snow is make King in The North (and legitimised), I can easily see him and Tormund working together to bring down Stannis. Stannis survives whatever happens around Winterfell where he is by the end of Dance, perhaps he is event victorious but chooses, with his back safe so to speak, to return to the Wall to fullfil his true destiny, that is protecting the realm from the Others?  When there things go wrong and Patchface kills Selyse (no, not truly) he feels compelled to to extreme things. In the end, what is one child to every man, woman, child and dog in the realm? If it is not hard, it is no true sacrifice at all. And now he might not have his Onion Lord by his side (whom Stannis thinks dead) to counsel him. If the Shireen theory is true, I see no way Davos would accept it.

[Mighthearmeroar]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

The Night's King has to be a Stark.  If there is to be one, it will be Jon Snow or Rickon Stark.  Jon's corpse bride will be Arya.

No theory is perfect, eh? For it to be foreshadowing, it can't be too easy to see, right? That would spoil all the fun.

 

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“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of
Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a
Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. . “He was of an unkown House, Carrying Antlers and Hearts on his Banners and being very tall and dark and grim and just and having a malformed child.”

Now this would be too easy. If my theory is true that is, and it might well be dead wrong.

And besides, Nan's story doesn't add up. She says all records of the man are destroyed and his very name forgotten. How does she know who the NK is? I know it's a story and all, but the story should at least be compatible with itself, methinks.

[Tucu]

Not sure if Stannis will become a NK, but both his men and Bolton's men are being described as snowmen.

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Before long the ground ahead of the column was blanketed in white, concealing stones and twisted roots and deadfalls, turning every step into an adventure. The wind picked up as well, driving the snow before it. The king's host became a column of snowmen, staggering through knee-high drifts.

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Huddled in their hooded cloaks, the guards outside were almost indistinguishable from the snowmen

Both armies will soon be feeding blood to that ancient weirwood in the island. Don't feed the trees!

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From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient, its bole and branches white as the surrounding snows. Eight days ago Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she'd told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood

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The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Harren the Black. 
 

Was he the last Nights king? What line was put to an end by Agon? A family line or an attempt at a new southern wall? Just a silly thought of mine. Probably wrong. It’s just so strange to me that it was Harren the Black and not Harren Hoare. Agon waits the 40 years for the castle’s completion and then decides to melt it? Not hold it or take the supposed great wealth, but burn everything and everyone.

[Nathan Stark]

I doubt it'll happen. For one thing, the Night King is a show invention, loosely based on the Night's King. George has downplayed the likelihood of this individual showing up in the books, comparing the Night's King to people like Lann the Clever, or Brandon the Builder. That's not to say that it isn't an archetype that one, or multiple, characters can reflect at times. But no, Stannis isn't coming back from the dead as the literal reincarnation of the Night's King, and neither is Jon, and neither is Dany.

My read on Stannis's role in the story is this; he serves to foreshadow Danearys's eventual ending point, deciding to vent all the pent up rage, trauma, sense of victimhood and helplessness she feels upon the people of the land, or Kings Landing. Stannis and Dany share a few similarities. They are both the sole remaining legitimate heirs to their respective houses. They both have better legitimate claims to the Iron Thrown than any other current contender. They both justify their actions, to themselves as much as to others, as being neccesary to advance a noble cause (saving the world/freeing millions from horrific slavery). They have both done objectively horrifying things to advance their respective causes, and will continue to do horrifying things going forward. They both have an "ends justifies the means" attitude in getting what they want. Neither of these characters is objectively evil like Tywin or Euron, but their actions will ultimately cause just as much damage to the people of the land.

Stannis only ever wanted the love and approval of his brothers. Due in part to his own decisions, that can never happen for him. He is a tragic figure because his own worst instincts pushed him up against a Wall (heh) and now he finds fewer options other than burning his only daughter. His tale is about self-destruction.

Dany only ever wanted to return to the house with the red door, to a time and a place where she felt happy, safe and loved. Her own actions, and her own bad rep, pushes this dream increasingly further out of reach. Her actions and decisions feel deeply unsatisfying to her, and as of her last chapter in Dance, she has commited to war and conquest. She too is a tragic figure. In the end, all the doors will be red, and Dany will have no one but herself to blame. Her tale is also about self-destruction.

For me, the idea of the Night's King returning in some form and playing an active role in the story is deeply unsatisfying for a few reasons. Firstly, it reads too much like a cheap fantasy knock-off of Tolkien, where the forces of evil are led by the Big Bad Guy and must be defeated. George R. R. Martin has explicitly critisized these types of stories in the past. He's trying to do something different with ASOIAF. 

Then there is the fact that the Others, and their army of the undead, are plenty terrifying on their own. In fact, they are scary because they come across as a force of nature, unstoppable, relentless, remorseless. They will kill you, raise you up from the dead, and have you kill your friends and loved ones. Having this unstoppable force be led by a specific character, who could theoretically be stopped, takes a lot of the bite out of the Others, reducing them to just another bit player in the game of thrones, when their entire role is to be the alien, unknowable, eldritch threat to all of humanity.

The thing that makes ASOIAF work, its ultimate theme, is the human heart in conflict with itself. Stannis's heart is as much in conflict as any other character, and so is Melisandre's, and so is Dany's. Having these characters experience doubt and defeat, having them make fateful choices and experience consequences, forcing them to choose their values when they are absolutely cornered, is what gives this series meaning. So from a narrative standpoint, I don't think Stannis as the Night's King does his story much justice. His story, like Dany's, ends not in ice, but fire.

[Egged]

Perhaps I did not want to be the only one who knew the dark truth of what had happened there, Catelyn thought. "Brienne, I have taken many wellborn ladies into my service over the years, but never one like you. I am no battle commander."

"No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don't know . . . a kind of woman's courage. And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis."

Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb's turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck."When the time comes, I will not hold you back."

This is not the only case where cold is associated with Stannis.

On top of that Stannis asked Sam to show him the Black Gate:

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

"The B-black Gate," Sam stammered. "Below the Nightfort."

"The Nightfort is the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall," the king said. "That is where I intend to make my seat, whilst I fight this war. You will show me this gate."

And Daenerys' vision:

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

A sunset, the opposite of dawn.

I think this is pointing at Stannis join the Others. He is on a path to lose absolutely everything. When he has nothing left to lose, he might embrace "the demons made of snow and ice and cold".

[Mighthearmeroar]

 

18 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I doubt it'll happen. For one thing, the Night King is a show invention, loosely based on the Night's King. George has downplayed the likelihood of this individual showing up in the books, comparing the Night's King to people like Lann the Clever, or Brandon the Builder. That's not to say that it isn't an archetype that one, or multiple, characters can reflect at times. But no, Stannis isn't coming back from the dead as the literal reincarnation of the Night's King, and neither is Jon, and neither is Dany.

On this we can agree and I have never thought otherwise. I am writing only of the book Night's King and have only compared Stannis with how the NK is portrayed by Old Nan/Bran. The book Night's King was definetly not an Other. Neither is there strong evidence (such as it is) that he was undead. He was a man in cahoots with a vile woman, doing terrible deeds, worst among them human sacrifice. This I do think Stannis will become.

I do not think Stannis will die and be raised from the dead. ALTHOUGH I think people in the Realm might come to believe this or some similar story.

 Spoiler alert! (Do we do what with sample chapters?)

Spoiler

“It may be that we shall lose this battle,” the king said grimly. “In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless.” Theon sampel chapter, TWOW.

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

Nan's line about the "NK may have even been a Stark" is a thematic reference in Jon's arc. What will make Stannis the NK will be his sacrifice of Shireen. Jon is going to face the same dilemma as Stannis - sacrifice a child or the  Others will win. So at the point in time leading up to Jon's decision which is the central of his arc, the question will be (particularly for Bran who Nan told the story to) is Jon Stark going to sacrifice his child, is he like Stannis, is he another Night King?

[Egged]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Nan's line about the "NK may have even been a Stark" is a thematic reference in Jon's arc. What will make Stannis the NK will be his sacrifice of Shireen. Jon is going to face the same dilemma as Stannis - sacrifice a child or the  Others will win. So at the point in time leading up to Jon's decision which is the central of his arc, the question will be (particularly for Bran who Nan told the story to) is Jon Stark going to sacrifice his child, is he like Stannis, is he another Night King?

Jon could face a situation where they are just not ready to fight the Others, so he accepts to hand them Monster. Essentially a repeat of what Craster did.

This could in fact be exactly what the original "Night's King" did, and it's only his reputation that was twisted.

Remember, Val was found north of the wall, has blue eyes, dresses all in white, which is reminiscent of the Night King's supposed consort. It could all be slandering. So the original NK and his "bride" was just a lord commander allied to some Free Folk, and they reached a point where they were unable to fend off the Others other than by handing them babies a la Craster.

[Rondo]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:47 AM, Mighthearmeroar said:

No theory is perfect, eh? For it to be foreshadowing, it can't be too easy to see, right? That would spoil all the fun.

 

Now this would be too easy. If my theory is true that is, and it might well be dead wrong.

And besides, Nan's story doesn't add up. She says all records of the man are destroyed and his very name forgotten. How does she know who the NK is? I know it's a story and all, but the story should at least be compatible with itself, methinks.

If that were the only clues pointing to the Starks.  The Others take Craster's kids and convert them to one of their own kind.  His blood is special, else every wildling boy would have been taken and converted.  The baby must have compatibility to the Others.  That is, having ice in his veins.  A Stark.  Craster and the Starks are kin folk.  The Nightsking contributed his DNA to the Others or the other way around.  He was chosen by the bride because his DNA was already compatible.  No theory is perfect and that we can agree on.  However, the clues directs me to believe the Nightsking is a Stark.  Jon and Arya are the most Stark of anybody in that family.