Jump to content

Did Varys originally want Tyrion dead?


The Bard of Banefort

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Barristan Selmy is a knight, and more specifically the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Keeping up his training would be entirely expected for him, and in fact he'd be regarded as failing in his responsibilities if he did otherwise.

Barristan is approaching sixty in the books. Nobody would expect him to ride in the lists or keep in himself in good shape. He does that ... but he could just as well grow fat and feeble.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Oh, he was a bravo, but I don't know that he'd be all that adept in a swordfight at present. Unlike Selmy, he's let himself go.

I didn't say he would necessarily win in a swordfight. I said he still walks like a water dancer which means he might be able to some other bravo things as well.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

This "crucial place" was an ambush prepared in advance. And of course he would move around his little birds where & when they're needed, he doesn't have an unlimited supply to place everywhere.

Nobody talked about an unlimited supply. But he could have enough to always cover crucial places ... and one of those could very well be his own cell.

I mean, it is not that hard to imagine Varys wanting to ensure that nobody enters his chambers without his knowledge nor surprise and attack him there.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

In a situation where he'd already prepared those little birds to attack someone there, he could, although they'd make for very poor bodyguards as I already said.

Perhaps if Varys genuinely thought they were the only thing between life & death they'd serve as his hail Mary, although I don't know that the kids themselves would be willing to risk their own lives.

Again, that isn't a major point, you keep coming back to things that aren't relevant.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tyrion was still capable of walking, and he's someone who's fought in battle multiple times.

Which is also kind of a joke and of itself.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That was genuine. LF was instigating chaos in KL, whereas Varys wanted to keep things from spinning out of control prior to the invasion being ready. And the whole reason Varys was visiting Ned was to convince him to make a deal with the Lannisters and be sent to the Wall after confessing, which Joffrey blew up by executing him. Again, Varys was being genuine and was actually blindsided by Joffrey's decision.

You are confusing things. Yes, Varys genuinely wanted and did convince the imprisoned Ned to take Cersei's deal. But Varys was just bullshitting Ned when he told him his sad tale about him being Robert's leal protector and doing his best of keeping him alive. Varys had no reason to keep Robert alive. He seems to have wanted to prevent the twincest from coming out ... but that's not the same as keeping Robert alive.

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Cersei has a number of people killed, would it be that unreasonable to think he could be included?

Varys is not afraid of Cersei. In fact, Varys doesn't really seem to be afraid of very much or anything. He couldn't do what he does if he was afraid of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/30/2021 at 4:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

Nobody would expect him to ride in the lists or keep in himself in good shape. He does that ... but he could just as well grow fat and feeble.

It's part of the duty of a KG to be the best they can. That Boros Blount doesn't is supposed to be an anomaly and reflect how low the KG has sunk.

Quote

But he could have enough to always cover crucial places ... and one of those could very well be his own cell.

Are they guarding Fort Knox working shifts to cover 24 hours? The little birds are primarily spies, and he doesn't need spies as much for his own room.

Quote

I mean, it is not that hard to imagine Varys wanting to ensure that nobody enters his chambers without his knowledge nor surprise and attack him there.

It would certainly be preferable, but did he have reason to think he might be attacked there? It's not like enemies were streaming into the city at the time. And Varys may not be especially liked, but as a family-less foreigner & eunuch he's rather separate from the intra-house fights and he's not going to have any romantic rivals or neighbors bickering over territory either.

Quote

Varys had no reason to keep Robert alive

He was trying to avoid civil war prior to the invasion being ready, and Robert's brothers were not going to tolerate Joffrey on the throne.

Quote

He seems to have wanted to prevent the twincest from coming out

I know Renly's knowledge has been debated here, but Stannis already knew about it. As did LF & Pycelle, although they were going to keep quiet.

Quote

In fact, Varys doesn't really seem to be afraid of very much or anything

You would dismiss instances of him telling others he's scared as just performing. What scenes would you take of him being "honest"? Just the meeting with Illyrio & his monologue to Kevan? In the former, he's a lot less confident in his own abilities than Illyrio is. And we also can infer from that he didn't have a spy observe Arya lurking around.

Quote

He couldn't do what he does if he was afraid of things.

Being excessively paranoid might actually be a virtue in a Master of Whisperers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's part of the duty of a KG to be the best they can. That Boros Blount doesn't is supposed to be an anomaly and reflect how low the KG has sunk.

Boros Blount isn't a man approaching sixty. Seriously, can you only compare apples and oranges?

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Are they guarding Fort Knox working shifts to cover 24 hours? The little birds are primarily spies, and he doesn't need spies as much for his own room.

How do you know what Varys uses his little birds?

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It would certainly be preferable, but did he have reason to think he might be attacked there? It's not like enemies were streaming into the city at the time. And Varys may not be especially liked, but as a family-less foreigner & eunuch he's rather separate from the intra-house fights and he's not going to have any romantic rivals or neighbors bickering over territory either.

Varys is a very unpopular fellow at court precisely because he is foreigner, a eunuch, and scum who grew up on the streets. He'd have every reason to expect folks might attack or murder him even if he wasn't also running the Crown's secret service.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He was trying to avoid civil war prior to the invasion being ready, and Robert's brothers were not going to tolerate Joffrey on the throne.

If the twincest isn't revealed, Joff will succeed to the throne. Even if the twincest is revealed Joff might still succeed to the throne ... as he did. And Varys helped with that, as it happened.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I know Renly's knowledge has been debated here, but Stannis already knew about it. As did LF & Pycelle, although they were going to keep quiet.

Stannis is pretty much a non-factor in all of this. He could make trouble, but if Ned and Renly and the other lords stood with Joffrey, he would be dealt with very quickly.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You would dismiss instances of him telling others he's scared as just performing. What scenes would you take of him being "honest"? Just the meeting with Illyrio & his monologue to Kevan? In the former, he's a lot less confident in his own abilities than Illyrio is. And we also can infer from that he didn't have a spy observe Arya lurking around.

Varys is only honest/himself, in my opinion, when his voice goes dark and he sounds hard and not likely his slimy, effeminate fake persona ... which only happened twice so far. When he told Tyrion the story about his castration and when he told Kevan about Aegon.

Everything else is fake, although not necessarily to the same degree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Boros Blount isn't a man approaching sixty. Seriously, can you only compare apples and oranges?

How do you know what Varys uses his little birds?

Varys is a very unpopular fellow at court precisely because he is foreigner, a eunuch, and scum who grew up on the streets. He'd have every reason to expect folks might attack or murder him even if he wasn't also running the Crown's secret service.

If the twincest isn't revealed, Joff will succeed to the throne. Even if the twincest is revealed Joff might still succeed to the throne ... as he did. And Varys helped with that, as it happened.

Stannis is pretty much a non-factor in all of this. He could make trouble, but if Ned and Renly and the other lords stood with Joffrey, he would be dealt with very quickly.

Varys is only honest/himself, in my opinion, when his voice goes dark and he sounds hard and not likely his slimy, effeminate fake persona ... which only happened twice so far. When he told Tyrion the story about his castration and when he told Kevan about Aegon.

Everything else is fake, although not necessarily to the same degree.

Yes, this helps prove Aegon is real He is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Boros Blount isn't a man approaching sixty. Seriously, can you only compare apples and oranges?

What evidence is there in the books that it's acceptable for a knight of the Kingsguard - and the Lord Commander at that - to let himself go and not keep up his fitness and training? I can't recall anything like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

What evidence is there in the books that it's acceptable for a knight of the Kingsguard - and the Lord Commander at that - to let himself go and not keep up his fitness and training? I can't recall anything like that.

The very fact that the Kingsguard continue to serve as cripples and in old age shows that there are clearly no standards of fitness for an invested KG. You do have to be a great warrior when chosen, but that's it.

Also, we only have only seven KG and their top duty is to protect the king - which they do in daily shifts lasting hours - and whoever the king assigns them to. A KG doesn't have much spare time to keep himself in top shape. We don't see the KG training the practice yard for hours and hours like Jon Snow is doing at CB.

In that sense, it seems as if George is more going with the 'lucky people' routine insofar as his top warriors are concerned - innate talent, physique, etc. And Barristan Selmy really seems to be a blessed character considering the fact that somehow he remained in top shape at a very advanced age in a world where most people living a life like his would be cripples or dead at his age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/2/2021 at 3:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

How do you know what Varys uses his little birds?

He's a spymaster, and the hidden passages accessible to such little birds permitting a view into rooms in the Red Keep isn't so they can leap out and defend anyone, seeing as how they haven't done that. Illyrio has spoken of how Varys realized secrets were the most valuable thing and began recruiting "mice" back in Essos.

Quote

If the twincest isn't revealed, Joff will succeed to the throne

Are you saying Stannis & Renly wouldn't rebel on Robert's death? Or that Varys just wouldn't care if they did?

Quote

Stannis is pretty much a non-factor in all of this

Varys was concerned with both Stannis & Lysa gathering swords away from the capital (and Renly scheming against the Lannisters) prior to Ned discovering the twincest & Robert's death. Varys also says of him "The king's brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights … Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." Tywin also says in the first book "I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined". But perhaps you think Tywin is an idiot Varys would dismiss.

Quote

Renly and the other lords stood with Joffrey

Varys knew Renly was plotting to replace Cersei with Margaery. Why would he be expected to support Joffrey even while he'd be closer to the throne with Stannis on it?

On 10/3/2021 at 7:47 AM, Lord Varys said:

The very fact that the Kingsguard continue to serve as cripples and in old age shows that there are clearly no standards of fitness for an invested KG.

There is no retirement from the KG. That doesn't mean it would be acceptable for a KG to slack on their duties.

Quote

A KG doesn't have much spare time to keep himself in top shape

And yet Barristan is still almost supernaturally great at old age, Jaime Lannister thought he could kill anyone who got in his way after years in the KG (and he did kill a number of people before he got captured), Arthur Dayne was the greatest knight Ned ever saw and famously defeated "the Mountain of his day" in single combat despite chivalrously letting him replace his sword, the KG are regularly top tier competitors in tourneys, and Criston Cole was able to thrash others in said tourneys to the extent he was actually lethal. Really, if being part of the KG tended to cause people to get out of shape, the King would find them less reliable than non-KG guards.

Quote

In that sense, it seems as if George is more going with the 'lucky people' routine insofar as his top warriors are concerned - innate talent, physique, etc.

Robert Baratheon is a counter-example to that. He was in great shape as a young man, but is not now that he's king.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's a spymaster, and the hidden passages accessible to such little birds permitting a view into rooms in the Red Keep isn't so they can leap out and defend anyone, seeing as how they haven't done that. Illyrio has spoken of how Varys realized secrets were the most valuable thing and began recruiting "mice" back in Essos.

Obviously they can come out rather quickly and without making any sounds in the Epilogue. Seriously, you should take a closer look at the actual text.

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Are you saying Stannis & Renly wouldn't rebel on Robert's death? Or that Varys just wouldn't care if they did?

Varys was concerned with both Stannis & Lysa gathering swords away from the capital (and Renly scheming against the Lannisters) prior to Ned discovering the twincest & Robert's death. Varys also says of him "The king's brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights … Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." Tywin also says in the first book "I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined". But perhaps you think Tywin is an idiot Varys would dismiss.

Varys isn't Tywin, so I don't know why we should think Varys would share his opinion. Varys also describes how Cersei views Stannis, not Stannis as a danger to his plans.

Stannis certainly poses a threat to Varys' ultimate plan, but he is a joke as a pretender and should be pretty easily dealt with by means of pushing the other lords against him. If Stannis ever had to face a Targaryen pretender nobody would follow him.

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There is no retirement from the KG. That doesn't mean it would be acceptable for a KG to slack on their duties.

But we don't know that it is their duty to remain in perfect shape until they are old.

And besides, why are we discussing this? It is irrelevant to the topic at hand. The point is that Varys is neither fat nor particularly old nor a clumsy cripple like Jaime ... and we can expect him to have fought and killed people in his youth in brawls and the like. He would make short work of Jaime if he wanted to. Considering his act he might even be able to disarm and overpower professional warriors if they are stupid enough to view him just as the slimy, effeminate eunuch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

and we can expect him to have fought and killed people in his youth in brawls and the like

There isn't any actual evidence to support this, just vague conjecture. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering his act he might even be able to disarm and overpower professional warriors if they are stupid enough to view him just as the slimy, effeminate eunuch

Okay now this is just ridiculous. I know you're a fan of the character, but come on. This is a bit much. Unless he takes them completely by surprise and lands a single knock-out blow, there's no way he could take down a "professional warrior". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

There isn't any actual evidence to support this, just vague conjecture. 

It is not vague. A guy who is prince of thieves and later runs a blackmail and extortion business that turns his partner into a very powerful and wealthy merchant and politician must know how to deal with people who try to intimidate and hurt him.

40 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Okay now this is just ridiculous. I know you're a fan of the character, but come on. This is a bit much. Unless he takes them completely by surprise and lands a single knock-out blow, there's no way he could take down a "professional warrior". 

If Varys the slimy guy who constantly creeps up to people and touches them suddenly put a dagger into their necks rather than a hand on their arm they wouldn't see that coming. I didn't say they would win a fight if the other guy knew a fight was coming, but just landing a deadly blow in mid-conversation certainly could work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always held the opinion that Tyrion was viewed as disposable asset  (or to Tywin/Cersei, perceived/liability) who was a pawn to the real players. Even as he tries to prove them wrong, they still position him as such.

 

Ex - for the Targaryens, he could be paraded as a gift to either hold hostage or execute (revenge) or to try to get rally support against his own family.

For Baelish - scapegoat for his political scheming.

For Varys - same as for the Targaryens, but also to cover his own behind with the incumbents.

For Tywin - to stamp his name where useful, to stamp the blame for failures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2021 at 8:19 AM, Lord Varys said:

Varys isn't Tywin, so I don't know why we should think Varys would share his opinion.

Opinions are not random, they are informed by shared information. You think that Stannis is a joke, but Varys & Tywin didn't treat him that way.

Quote

Varys also describes how Cersei views Stannis, not Stannis as a danger to his plans.

No, his conversation with Illyrio took place when Robert was alive and Varys was not reporting to Cersei. The conversation was entirely about their planned invasion not being ready while other "players" disrupted things, not what Cersei was thinking. The conversation about Cersei's perception was with Ned, and since you tend to dismiss what Varys said to Ned as just acting I don't know why you're trying to shift to that instead of the conversation with Illyrio.

Quote

Stannis certainly poses a threat to Varys' ultimate plan, but he is a joke as a pretender and should be pretty easily dealt with by means of pushing the other lords against him.

He only ceases to be a threat after he loses the Battle of Blackwater. Directly prior to that he was talking to Tyrion about how he wanted to see Stannis dead. Since you brought up the conversation about Cersei's fears, there are statements framed as being about her mindset rather than Varys'. But everything from "His claim is the true one" to "gathered more swords than seashells" is presented as Varys' stating facts rather Cersei's view.

Quote

But we don't know that it is their duty to remain in perfect shape until they are old.

It is their duty to do the best they can.

Quote

And besides, why are we discussing this?

Because Jaime is a knight of the KG, and Varys is not a knight of any sort, nor a trained fighter of any sort as far as we know.

Quote

nor particularly old

We don't know exactly how old he is, but he supposedly became prominent in two different Essosi cities before being made Master of Whisperers while Jaime was a teen. Illyrio is old enough to have radically changed shape in a less healthy way compared to when he was a young bravo, Varys is at least fitter than that.

Quote

and we can expect him to have fought and killed people in his youth in brawls and the like

You assume that, there is no textual support for it.

On 10/5/2021 at 12:16 PM, Lord Varys said:

A guy who is prince of thieves and later runs a blackmail and extortion business that turns his partner into a very powerful and wealthy merchant and politician must know how to deal with people who try to intimidate and hurt him.

The one time we know of him facing just that, he dealt with it by running away and obtaining protection from Illyrio.

Quote

suddenly put a dagger into their necks rather than a hand on their arm they wouldn't see that coming

Someone who'd already put their own knife to Varys' neck would be more prepared for a hostile interaction, and Varys would be putting himself at risk of getting killed if his attempt failed. He has no need to take such a risk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, honestly, this entire debate is a joke. Jaime is a joke, he is no danger to Varys. Not at all. Varys can show up in White Sword Tower and cut Jaime's throat any time he likes, regardless whether he is a clumsy cripple or not.

If Varys had been surprised by Jaime, if he had really been threatened by him, Varys could have murdered Jaime half a hundred times without anyone noticing he was behind that before it was time to free Tyrion from his cell. And as I said - he still could have murdered him down there.

My point remains: I don't buy the idea that Varys was ever intimidated or surprised by Jaime, nor that Varys would have freed Tyrion if he had not wanted to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, honestly, this entire debate is a joke. Jaime is a joke, he is no danger to Varys. Not at all. Varys can show up in White Sword Tower and cut Jaime's throat any time he likes, regardless whether he is a clumsy cripple or not.

If Varys had been surprised by Jaime, if he had really been threatened by him, Varys could have murdered Jaime half a hundred times without anyone noticing he was behind that before it was time to free Tyrion from his cell. And as I said - he still could have murdered him down there.

My point remains: I don't buy the idea that Varys was ever intimidated or surprised by Jaime, nor that Varys would have freed Tyrion if he had not wanted to do so.

No one denies that because of Varys's "little birds" he could have had Jaime killed any time he wanted, like Pycelle and Kevan; the issue is with your claim that Varys could easily overpower Jaime physically, of which there is absolutely no textual evidence for this, purely your own conjecture and assumption. I think you need to distance yourself from your adoration of the character and look at things more objectively (i.e. based purely on what the text tells us about this character). Calling a debate you can't win "a joke" is immature. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

No one denies that because of Varys's "little birds" he could have had Jaime killed any time he wanted, like Pycelle and Kevan; the issue is with your claim that Varys could easily overpower Jaime physically, of which there is absolutely no textual evidence for this, purely your own conjecture and assumption. I think you need to distance yourself from your adoration of the character and look at things more objectively (i.e. based purely on what the text tells us about this character). Calling a debate you can't win "a joke" is immature. 

But that is just part of my argument. I'm saying Varys wasn't forced to free Tyrion because he was intimidated by Jaime. And I point out Varys could have gotten out of the Jaime problem if he had viewed it as a problem. Which he clearly didn't.

The argument doesn't really rest on Varys being able to overpower a crippled Jaime - although I definitely think he could have done that.

Jaime is a clumsy cripple now. Cersei repeatedly slaps him in AFfC because he no longer has a right hand he can raise in his defense. We cannot really view him as a guy who is good in a fight in close quarters. Even if Varys wasn't a competent fighter, he would still be better than Jaime. Because Jaime is, at this point (and in my opinion still) nothing without his right hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 8 months later...
On 9/24/2021 at 1:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

The real Varys doesn't whistle and he isn't pushed around by cripples.

Varys would be taking a fatal risk by physically fighting back against Jaime Lannister, and I'm not even talking about in the moment. And if Varys killed him, what good would that accomplish? Varys doesn't overplay his hand and he always plays the tittering fat eunuch around his Lords. He would NEVER show a high lord what he's capable of. And more importantly killing Jaime Lannister would never have entered Varys' mind as a possible action he could take even if he really intended for Tyrion to die. Leaving a disabled, unhinged Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who fathered the king with his sister is a cyvasse piece he would never throw away in any situation. It's not like if Varys were surprised by Jaime being in his chambers that he would just turn into a power ranger and decide to fight him. No, he would acquiesce every time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Varys doesn't think about Tyrion until Jaime makes him have to think about Tyrion, and then he saves Tyrion because that's easier than removing Jaime, and if he's going to save him he may as well sit him with Aegon, as he's generally competent and contemporary to Westeros, and it can't be reasonably doubted in world that he's abandoned House Lannister forever (he hasn't though).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Hazel-rah said:

Varys would be taking a fatal risk by physically fighting back against Jaime Lannister, and I'm not even talking about in the moment. And if Varys killed him, what good would that accomplish? Varys doesn't overplay his hand and he always plays the tittering fat eunuch around his Lords. He would NEVER show a high lord what he's capable of. And more importantly killing Jaime Lannister would never have entered Varys' mind as a possible action he could take even if he really intended for Tyrion to die. Leaving a disabled, unhinged Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who fathered the king with his sister is a cyvasse piece he would never throw away in any situation. It's not like if Varys were surprised by Jaime being in his chambers that he would just turn into a power ranger and decide to fight him. No, he would acquiesce every time.  

You mean, like Varys never showed Grand Maester Pycelle and Ser Kevan Lannister, the Lord Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, what he was made of?

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Varys doesn't think about Tyrion until Jaime makes him have to think about Tyrion, and then he saves Tyrion because that's easier than removing Jaime, and if he's going to save him he may as well sit him with Aegon, as he's generally competent and contemporary to Westeros, and it can't be reasonably doubted in world that he's abandoned House Lannister forever (he hasn't though).

That makes no sense in context. A ship is ready to take Tyrion to Pentos in that very night - a ship Varys could not just wish into existence. Not to mention the entire charade with Shae which is something Varys has been setting up for quite some time at this point.

Murdering Jaime would be no problem for Varys, and he could easily blame another faction for this. Hell, he has the means to make Jaime's corpse disappear, so his family wouldn't even know that he is dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. If Jaime didn't intervene Tyrion would be going to NW and it would be easy for Varys to arrange with the ship's captain a detour to bring Tyrion to Pentos. What is more it would probably stay unknown for a time and Varys wouldn't have to disappear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean, like Varys never showed Grand Maester Pycelle and Ser Kevan Lannister, the Lord Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, what he was made of?

Murdering Jaime would be no problem for Varys, and he could easily blame another faction for this. Hell, he has the means to make Jaime's corpse disappear, so his family wouldn't even know that he is dead.

The context is a little different. He was AWOL by then anyways. By the way, I think you're right i'm just poking holes. The point about Varys' whistling is on point. I just think you went down the wrong track by saying stuff like "Lord Varys doesn't get pushed around by cripples" lol. But again the Lord Regent of the Seven Kingdoms was a cyvasse piece he was keen to get rid of at that point in the story.  Imagine if Varys killed Jaime in the moment. That would just be plain unlike him. You must concede to that if you're so adroitly named. Does he have the ability to do so? Yes, but he just would never do it. His means and capabilities are moot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...